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50NL: Two top pair hands + rehashing KK preflop debate.

  
 
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d0zer
Old 03-12-2008, 03:36 PM     Post subject: 50NL: Two top pair hands + rehashing KK preflop debate. #1 (permalink)  
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 Hand1:

My 3rd hand at the table. The only thing I know about villain is that he raised from EP for $1.75 two hands ago & took it down.

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Button ($59.20)
SB ($16.85)
BB ($97.65)
UTG ($55.90)
UTG+1 ($31.65)
MP1 ($38.70)
MP2 ($62.60)
Hero ($50)
CO ($43.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K.
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.5, 3 folds, BB calls $2, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($7.75) 8, 5, A (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $6, BB raises to $16, UTG folds, Hero ... ?



Hand 2:

I hate the PF call. Highly non-standard for me, I basically never call a PFR except with a PP or SC. Let's talk postflop.

MP1 is 60/13/4.7
UTG+1 is 50/9/1

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Hero ($85.45)
UTG ($11.60)
UTG+1 ($59.75)
MP1 ($94.55)
MP2 ($26.10)
CO ($39.05)
Button ($56.50)
SB ($13.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 raises to $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50, UTG+1 calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8.25) , , (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $7, CO calls $7, Hero calls $7, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($29.25) (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $15, CO calls $15, Hero ...




Hand 3:

Here the villains were 24/2/1 & 20/4/2. I've never folded kings preflop at 25NL. Should I start considering folding at 50NL vs this kind of aggression from these fairly passive villains? I've been blindly following the mantra "always push kings preflop", but have yet to see any fullstack get it in with AK/QQ/JJ .

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Button ($32.80)
SB ($34.95)
BB ($22.75)
UTG ($28.20)
UTG+1 ($58.05)
Hero ($50)
MP2 ($30.95)
MP3 ($63.95)
CO ($48.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , .
UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, CO raises to $4.5, 3 folds, UTG raises to $7, Hero ...
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Muzzard
Old 03-12-2008, 04:44 PM     Post subject: Re: 50NL: Two top pair hands + rehashing KK preflop debate. #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($32.80)
SB ($34.95)
BB ($22.75)
UTG ($28.20)
UTG+1 ($58.05)
Hero ($50)
MP2 ($30.95)
MP3 ($63.95)
CO ($48.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , .
UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, CO raises to $4.5, 3 folds, UTG raises to $7, Hero ...
I don't see how this last one can't be Aces. The old limp/3-bet. In the heat of the moment I probably can't loate the fold button though.

Hand 1: All in
Hand 2: Bleghhhhhh, fold.
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kmind
Old 03-12-2008, 05:35 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Agreed with Muzz. The first hand is close though, not many villain's c/r flops like that at this level without a set/some gay 2pair but I think it'd be giving him too much credit. You know when you should have folded hand 2... And yeah hand 3 I can't see it being anything other than aces but that sucks.
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d0zer
Old 03-12-2008, 05:52 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
not many villain's c/r flops like that at this level without a set/some gay 2pair
This has been my experience as well.

If I'd have been OOP, led and been re-raised in hand1, would you put the villain on a tighter, or looser range than his c/r line here?


I've been trying the occasional C/R bluff on tighter villains when I'm OOP and my sethunting misses & it looks like they're c-betting (like only 1 over on flop, they PFR'd from LP). They seem to fold so often I can't imagine how it wouldn't be +EV.
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GatorJH
Old 03-12-2008, 07:24 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
I've been trying the occasional C/R bluff on tighter villains when I'm OOP and my sethunting misses & it looks like they're c-betting (like only 1 over on flop, they PFR'd from LP). They seem to fold so often I can't imagine how it wouldn't be +EV.
I took this line about 50% of the time last night and it was successful most of the time.
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pokerfan
Old 03-12-2008, 08:21 PM #6 (permalink)  
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hand 1: i would still call in position and reevaluate his action on the turn.

hand 2: i lead out my trips on the flop and rarely fold this easily. Man, you call preflop raise from a donk(60%, 13% ), hit trips with good kicker, fold for what? Get all-in ASAP and pay the man monies. i probably 3 bet big here and teach him some lessons( dont fuck with me)

hand 3: shove without thinking twice even in 200NL games.
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d0zer
Old 03-12-2008, 09:01 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
hand 1: i would still call in position and reevaluate his action on the turn.

hand 2: i lead out my trips on the flop and rarely fold this easily. Man, you call preflop raise from a donk(60%, 13% ), hit trips with good kicker, fold for what? Get all-in ASAP and pay the man monies.

hand 3: shove without thinking twice even in 200NL games.
Call hand1? Isn't that dodgy given the flush draw? If he's got a set are we really getting away on the turn when the pot is bigger than my remaining stack?
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pokerfan
Old 03-12-2008, 09:19 PM #8 (permalink)  
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if he got two pairs or set, he will let you know on the turn. Still, we have to fold to his big bet later. Basically, i dont fold this easily in these low stakes games.You are not seriously commited even if you call his flop small raise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
hand 1: i would still call in position and reevaluate his action on the turn.

hand 2: i lead out my trips on the flop and rarely fold this easily. Man, you call preflop raise from a donk(60%, 13% ), hit trips with good kicker, fold for what? Get all-in ASAP and pay the man monies.

hand 3: shove without thinking twice even in 200NL games.
Call hand1? Isn't that dodgy given the flush draw? If he's got a set are we really getting away on the turn when the pot is bigger than my remaining stack?
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d0zer
Old 03-13-2008, 03:17 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
if he got two pairs or set, he will let you know on the turn. Still, we have to fold to his big bet later. Basically, i dont fold this easily in these low stakes games.You are not seriously commited even if you call his flop small raise.
I'm still unsure about this hand.

Check out hand2 in this thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ds-t67852.html

Kind of a similar situation. Would you recommend calling the flop there as well?
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pokerfan
Old 03-13-2008, 03:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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no, i probably fold AT right on flop in this situation even in blind wars. your reverse implied odds is pretty bad compared with AK hand, not worth putting more money in considering that you gotta play out of position.
Actually, we call small flop raise with AK and keep our unknown opponent honest. Believe it or not, I wouldnt be surprised to see some terrible unknowns c/r with AQ/AJ in this level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
if he got two pairs or set, he will let you know on the turn. Still, we have to fold to his big bet later. Basically, i dont fold this easily in these low stakes games.You are not seriously commited even if you call his flop small raise.
I'm still unsure about this hand.

Check out hand2 in this thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ds-t67852.html

Kind of a similar situation. Would you recommend calling the flop there as well?
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d0zer
Old 03-13-2008, 03:37 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
no, i probably fold AT in this situation even in blind wars. your reverse implied odds is pretty bad compared with AK hand, not worth putting
more money in because there are lots of hands ahead of your TPGK.
Actually, we call small flop raise with AK and keep our unknown opponent honest. Believe it or not, I wouldnt be surprised to see some terrible unknowns c/r with AQ/AJ in this level.
Yeah I agree with you on the AT hand, I shoulda let that one go -- I was talking about hand2 in that other thread, the AK that hit the K on the two-tone board & got raised on the flop. It was suggested to me that calling (as I did) was a mistake & I should have either push/folded there.
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pokerfan
Old 03-13-2008, 03:43 PM #12 (permalink)  
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yeah, its either a shove or fold. Calling is definitely a mistake coz you have to play out of position and put so much in already. Given his stat, i'm leaning towards a fold and move on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
no, i probably fold AT in this situation even in blind wars. your reverse implied odds is pretty bad compared with AK hand, not worth putting
more money in because there are lots of hands ahead of your TPGK.
Actually, we call small flop raise with AK and keep our unknown opponent honest. Believe it or not, I wouldnt be surprised to see some terrible unknowns c/r with AQ/AJ in this level.
Yeah I agree with you on the AT hand, I shoulda let that one go -- I was talking about hand2 in that other thread, the AK that hit the K on the two-tone board & got raised on the flop. It was suggested to me that calling (as I did) was a mistake & I should have either push/folded there.
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d0zer
Old 03-13-2008, 03:54 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
yeah, its either a shove or fold. Calling is definitely a mistake coz you have to play out of position and put so much in already. Given his stat, i'm leaning towards a fold and move on.
So that one is different because I'm OOP, but hand1 in this thread you prefer a call because I've got position on villain. I guess that makes sense because if he's really re-raising with air, or a good but not great hand, he'll probably fear me slowplaying him and will slow down on the turn, but if he's got 2pr+ he'll lead the turn.

*scratches chin pensively*

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martindcx1e
Old 03-13-2008, 04:40 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerMuzz
Hand 1: All in
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Agreed with Muzz. The first hand is close though, not many villain's c/r flops like that at this level without a set/some gay 2pair but I think it'd be giving him too much credit.
Pushing the flop in hand 1 is just terrible. What on earth is a good reason to do that? Also kmind, how can you say that his c/r is usually a set or 2 pair, but you should push anyways?

If villain is bluffing he will likely give it up after you call him. If so, then you win just as much as you do when you shove except you don't auto-stack yourself when he has an actual hand. If he really has a monster he will let you know later on in the hand, like pokerfan said.
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martindcx1e
Old 03-13-2008, 05:17 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
yeah, its either a shove or fold. Calling is definitely a mistake coz you have to play out of position and put so much in already. Given his stat, i'm leaning towards a fold and move on.
So that one is different because I'm OOP, but hand1 in this thread you prefer a call because I've got position on villain. I guess that makes sense because if he's really re-raising with air, or a good but not great hand, he'll probably fear me slowplaying him and will slow down on the turn, but if he's got 2pr+ he'll lead the turn.

*scratches chin pensively*

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The AK hand in that other thread is also different because villain raised almost 5x your flop bet as opposed to a ~2.7x raise in this thread. You aren't forced to commit your stack by calling the raise in this AK hand.
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jimmy44
Old 03-13-2008, 05:25 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: If UTG was not in the hand I might push. However, as BB is raising you 2.5x you c-bet with UTG still too act, I fold, he his representing a too strong hand. (He might be a donk and raising (FD or lower TP hand) to steal even with UTG to act, but we have invested only $8.5 and we don't have a huge hand).
I think calling is bad. If any heart, 9 or 4 fells on the turn we'll be wondering if we are still (if we were ever) in front. It seems (even with mini reads) that this guy can bet this kind of turn.
One other reason for not calling is that if we call the pot will be $40 and we'll have a $31 stack. At this time we can no longer fold, even if villain pushes we'll be getting near 2.5 to 1 odds, whereby, if in this situation we are in front about %30 of the time it would be a good call.

Hand 2: I think I stack off here with villain AF, he might easily be betting ATs/A9s/A8s, thinking it's best and we will still have 6 outs (including splitting) against AK.

Hand 3: easy push.
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d0zer
Old 03-13-2008, 05:30 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
The AK hand in that other thread is also different because villain raised almost 5x your flop bet as opposed to a ~2.7x raise in this thread. You aren't forced to commit your stack by calling the raise in this AK hand.
True, thanks martin.

Question about the flush draw possibility: In this spot are we not worried about the flush draw, because if it completes and villain bets, we could easily get away from it, where if instead of TPTK, we had a set here, we would be more inclined to shove over his re-raise on the flop because it's harder to get away from when the flush completes on the turn + he's probably calling a push with many hands worse than a set (TPGK, 2pr, FD, ..)?

I've always played drawey flops very aggressively to 'not let him draw for free', but if what you guys are saying is true, this is an exception to that rule...
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martindcx1e
Old 03-13-2008, 06:37 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy44
Hand 1: If UTG was not in the hand I might push. However, as BB is raising you 2.5x you c-bet with UTG still too act, I fold, he his representing a too strong hand.
I didn't really think about BB not even caring that UTG is behind him. Hmm. I still think pushing is the worst option with or without UTG in the hand, but it may just be fold > call > push now. I'm still not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
I've always played drawey flops very aggressively to 'not let him draw for free'
dozer, remember that you don't have to be the one betting to "make them pay to draw." if villain is betting into you or raising he is being charged already. for example, if villain leads at you for pot on the flop and you just call, he is paying the same amount of money as he would have if he checked and called a psb. you don't have to raise his psb to "charge" him.
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d0zer
Old 03-13-2008, 06:43 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 Where's FNord? I wanna see what that maniac says about fold > call > push
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:04 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Where's FNord? I wanna see what that maniac says about fold > call > push
haha, me too
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jimmy44
Old 03-13-2008, 09:33 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
I didn't really think about BB not even caring that UTG is behind him. Hmm. I still think pushing is the worst option with or without UTG in the hand, but it may just be fold > call > push now. I'm still not sure.
I prefer: fold > push > call
For the reasons I mentioned call is just very bad (unless we fell villain will push worst hands on turn and we plan to call).
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