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Im_new
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02-08-2009, 05:13 AM
Post subject: 50nl AJ as overcards vs BB
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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So, I missed the flop. Too often, do I attempt to steal from the button, BB calls and fires out at the flop. I'm never sure what to do. What are you thinking when this happens to you? And how do you adjust?
I have a feeling that calling here is a horrid decision because unless i hit, I have no clue what to do on the turn without spewing.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (Button) ($51.30)
SB ($41.90)
BB ($31.75)
UTG ($45)
MP1 ($51.60)
MP2 ($10)
CO ($92.05)
Preflop: Hero is Button with J , A
4 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50
Flop: ($4.25) 7, 7, 5 (2 players)
BB bets $2.50, Hero calls $2.50
Turn: ($9.25) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks
River: ($9.25) 10 (2 players)
BB bets $6.50, Hero folds
Total pot: $9.25 | Rake: $0.45
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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save yourself some $ and just raise to 1.5x bb on the btn, without reads I fold to this donk bet.
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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i think he means raise to $1.50, also if you call, then bet the turn when checked to, folding and raising are also ok.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Plan your hand!!
You had no idea what you were doing on the turn when you called his donk bet amiright? Calling can be good with some basic reads and a plan but if you're going to call for SD value I think it's no good
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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gotta say id be tempted to call river bet some
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Im_new
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Plan your hand!!
You had no idea what you were doing on the turn when you called his donk bet amiright? Calling can be good with some basic reads and a plan but if you're going to call for SD value I think it's no good
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I COMPLETELY agree with this. Its a definite leak in my game when my steals go bad.
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floptquadswunc
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 44
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How about playing those two overs as though you actually had a flush draw and were playing that flush draw as tho you actually had an overpair. Does that make any sense? It does to me, but I'm high. So, raise the flop, if he calls you then have your two overs as outs plus all of the flush cards, plus you can still represent the overpair if you do not hit. Of course, if you do not want to commit on nothing.. then just fold to his donk bet.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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With absolutely no reads folding the flop is not bad. If you do call the flop you are basically calling to float on him, because you you think he has a weak pair like a 5, a flush draw or something like a low pocket pair that he thinks is good. And...sometimes you may donk out and hit an ace or jack or running diamonds.
Calling to just check the turn is terrible in my opinion because you are losing so much fold equity, which is the main reason you call in position to start with. Calling and then raising on the turn to a check can be very profitable against certain opponents. I always watch how other players play and make a note if I can float their flop bets and make them fold on later streets.
I would definitly call his river bets some of the time, but I don't think this is one of those situations. His hand 'looks' like he bet the flush, checked the turn when you were interested, and is firing out a value bet.
I don't really like calling with ace high on the river when all I can beat is a busted draw that may or may not have gotten there. You would be much better off raising his bet and making him fold anything except a flush, since you have little to no showdown equity. Without any knowledge of the player I always take the conservative approach and fold though.
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daniel all your posts are tl;dr
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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I think that calling is weak. Either fold or raise his donk bet if you have a read like he donk bets a lot and will fold donk bet to raise.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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I think you played it fine. Raise less pre.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pocketfours
I think you played it fine.
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chipblight
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 9
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i would approach hand not like i missed flop with a j but more like i have jj and i would raise his flop bet. at worst betting the checked turn. the call on flop was worst play in hand.
if you were big blind and called the initial raise because you figured the button was just stealing then flop betting may win hand outright and if player is decent he could do this with any cards especially with a draw of some type. u will only know by re raising, this act will work in long run as well because player will remember you not giving in easily plus a the play may make villian lay down a small pair.
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cow344
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 24
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I believe you played it OK ! There are two ways to play it! Raise and hope you hit or can bluff them off of their hand. <=== (drunk way low percentage since people will play and hold any cards today)
Or the correct way and fold, a bet saved now can be placed later to get better results!
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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just ignore my post in this thread. I have failed 
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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flop you were likely behind with 6 outs, or sometimes ahead. Call is fine, but so is a raise. Checking turn behind is ideal as played, what are you representing if you bet there? river fold is easy cos the other option is a shove and that is silly in this situation without huge reads.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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flop raise is bad
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
flop raise is ok, with call being better, and fold being really bad
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TwoSmeets
daniel all your posts are tl;dr
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And your post makes no sense to me. What is tl;dr ???
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TwoSmeets
daniel all your posts are tl;dr
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And your post makes no sense to me. What is tl;dr ??? |
too long, didn't read...
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Im_new
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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This is probably the most confusing thread I've posted. THere isn't a clear consensus between many people. who do I trust and why? (lol)
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"Gotta run well eventually."
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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Yeah, because one line posts give soooo much information about such a complex situation. {sarcasm}.
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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I'll make my post shorter by saying: Calling flop is not bad if you plan on betting the turn when an {A,K,Q, J or diamond} come out.
Folding to his preflop bet is not bad either.
Raising his preflop bet is not bad either.
As played, checking the turn and folding the river is fine.
It is a multi purpose hand with a 'plethora' of ways to play the hand. The context of the situation should be your guiding factor.
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Im_new
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
I'll make my post shorter by saying: Calling flop is not bad if you plan on betting the turn when an {A,K,Q, J or diamond} come out.
Folding to his preflop bet is not bad either.
Raising his preflop bet is not bad either.
As played, checking the turn and folding the river is fine.
It is a multi purpose hand with a 'plethora' of ways to play the hand. The context of the situation should be your guiding factor.
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Whaaaa?
He didn't bet preflop, he called. And he didn't bet preflop, so I can't raise him.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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LOL @ who do you trust? Obv go with Pocketfours, renton, nutsinho, and any others that have the same view as them. Would be relatively dumb to take advice from someone with <20 posts when it conflicts with ballers, amirite?
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sk8r_daniel
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 330
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GAH, sorry! I obviously meant flop bet, not pre-flop bet.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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I mean I'm obviously going to think more and agree with the solid ballas but I do have a question: How bad is it to want to raise flop/bet turn for value? As in, if we raise flop we are betting turn, right? Because this is what I would have done. Please explain how just calling is better because I get in situations similar to this a lot.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
I mean I'm obviously going to think more and agree with the solid ballas but I do have a question: How bad is it to want to raise flop/bet turn for value? As in, if we raise flop we are betting turn, right? Because this is what I would have done. Please explain how just calling is better because I get in situations similar to this a lot.
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I'm sure someone will be able to explain this better, and probably even correctly. But I will try, and just need to start off with, this is very likely to be incorrect so meh.
But raising the flop as nutsinho said isn't terrible I don't think. You likely win the pot right now from a large part of his donking range, you could have him fold a few better hands. However, calling is ideal for a few reasons. His donk range here is either pairs, trips, or air. And you beat the majority of the air. If you raise here you are getting called by his pairs+, that you are behind. And folding out the air that you beat.
If you raised the flop, which I wouldn't really advocate, and he doesn't fold, then on the turn well I'm not too sure. This specific turn, I likely concede, and check it back taking my free card, but if a scare card comes, then I could see merit for barreling it to fold out the majority of his weak pps that called the flop raise.
But yeah... I wouldn't put too much weight in this explanation, and wouldn't mind a better player explaining it clearer.
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Im_new
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
GAH, sorry! I obviously meant flop bet, not pre-flop bet.
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no worries... just making sure. Clarity should be the key around here....right?
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mediumhand
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
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i think playing a hand without any reads is pretty hard so you should give some.
i think raise is actually best here and who knows maybe barreling turn big ? but need reads for that. and if ur feel really good shove any high card on river =)
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Im_new
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,055
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mediumhand
i think playing a hand without any reads is pretty hard so you should give some.
i think raise is actually best here and who knows maybe barreling turn big ? but need reads for that. and if ur feel really good shove any high card on river =)
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yeah, sorry, no real reads. This was hand 7. He and I only played 17 hands total. Given that, he was running 54/18
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