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4 Hands @ $200NL

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JeffreyGB

06-02-2007, 10:24 PM Post subject: 4 Hands @ $200NL

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,477

1.Flop was a semi-bluff, pure and simple. On the turn, I thought maybe I could pick up the pot if I repped the A. In retrospect I think I should have checked behind. No reads. Thoughts?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($203)
MP2 ($214.15)
Hero ($200)
Button ($304.10)
SB ($130.70)
BB ($227.55)
UTG ($415.60)
UTG+1 ($206.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

, J

.
UTG calls $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 3 folds, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($19) 6

, T

, 9

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $14, UTG calls $14.

Turn: ($47) A

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $45, UTG raises to $393.6 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $485.60

Results in white below:
No showdown. UTG wins $485.60.

2. KK in position. Some flops A-high flops it can be a good line to check-call to catch bluffers but minimize what you pay aces. I think that requires both a drawless board and being heads up to be true, however. Thoughts?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($215.45)
CO ($96.15)
Button ($20.75)
SB ($79)
BB ($210.15)
UTG ($58.25)
UTG+1 ($155.50)
MP1 ($194)
MP2 ($95.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K

, K

.
UTG calls $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $9, 3 folds, BB calls $7, UTG calls $7.

Flop: ($28) 3

, T

, A

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $20, BB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $48

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $48.

3. AJ in a BB v SB spot. How do you play it? I suppose I had position, so I could have seen a flop...He's likely shoving any flop though, do I give up every time I don't hit? Is that better than the reraise that committed me here? Villian was a 21/9 over the two orbits we had played.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($200)
Button ($117)
SB ($63.60)
Hero ($255)
UTG ($280)
UTG+1 ($179.70)
MP1 ($207.05)
MP2 ($444.55)
MP3 ($51.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

, A

.
7 folds, SB raises to $7, Hero raises to $24, SB raises to $70.6 (All-In), Hero calls $41.60.

Flop: ($136.20) 6

, 5

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($136.20) 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($136.20) T

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $136.20

Results in white below:
SB doesn't show.
Hero has Jd Ah (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $136.20.

4. Hoping for a fold preflop + on the flop. After that, figured I wouldn't have gotten it from many hands that I beat that he could call with hands I didn't beat. Not sure if betting turn/river gets him to lay down or not. Villian was new to table (didn't realize this...he replaced a loose-limp/tight-to-call-raise player). Thoughts?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($224.45)
SB ($29)
BB ($56.90)
UTG ($169.40)
UTG+1 ($86.70)
MP1 ($147)
MP2 ($196.70)
CO ($200)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A

, 3

.
3 folds, MP2 calls $2, Hero raises to $9, 2 folds, MP2 calls $7.

Flop: ($21) 9

, J

(3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $14, MP2 calls $14.

Turn: ($49) J

(3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($49) 4

(3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $49

Results in white below:
MP2 has 2s 2c (full house, jacks full of twos).
CO doesn't show.
Hero has Ac 3s (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: MP2 wins $49.

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zook

06-03-2007, 01:51 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,676

1. 2nd barrel or turn check behind are both fine without a read. Not sure you need to make your turn bet so big though. I usually make it ~$33 here.

2. I could go either way here. Don't mind c-betting for value b/c there are worse drawing hands that might call.

3. I play it the same vs. a shorty.

4. I play it the same without a read.

JeffreyGB

06-03-2007, 03:42 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

Thanks for the reply to my first actual question post. This was definitely the worst losing session I've had, and these were all but one of the possible mistakes, so it helps to hear that most of these weren't a big deal (or even a mistake).

Re: bet-size: There were a number of spots I was trying to bet a bit bigger than I usually do during this session (in response to something from a previous thread). I think I'll be returning to my normal 3xBB + 2/3 pot standards though, as I didn't like the extra losses when I had to get away from stuff.

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Da GOAT

06-03-2007, 02:28 PM Post subject: Re: 4 Hands @ $200NL

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Dublin

Posts: 4,308

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

1.Flop was a semi-bluff, pure and simple - was a c/b pure and simple

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

, J

.
UTG calls $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 3 folds, UTG calls $6.

i make it $10 with a limper

Flop: ($19) 6

, T

, 9

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $14, UTG calls $14.

good

Turn: ($47) A

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $45, UTG raises to $393.6 (All-In), Hero folds.

32-36 would have the same effect. 45 is way too much

Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.

JeffreyGB

06-03-2007, 03:14 PM Post subject: Re: 4 Hands @ $200NL

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

1.Flop was a semi-bluff, pure and simple - was a c/b pure and simple

Actually, not true. I don't like this flop texture for a c-bet if it hasn't hit my hand in some way. If I don't have the OESD here, I'm checking behind on the flop. I'd likely be making a delayed c-bet on a non-draw-completing turn.

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wufwugy

06-04-2007, 09:38 PM

#6 (permalink)

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hand 4 looks too button loose. will win small pots but lose big ones. i fold. would rather raise my button with 75s or 44 or something that can hit big or make draws and isn't so easily dominated. 22 pays you off on the flop less often if you hit your ace.

however, i've never played FT 200NL. dont know what exactly it's like.

mixchange

06-04-2007, 11:06 PM

#7 (permalink)

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hand 1: I don't like semi-bluffing OESD with the A out there. I'd rather just check and take the free card.

hand 2: As last to act, I think we always must bet here, regardless of whether the board is dry. I hate free cards with KK

hand3: hard to tell without reads. I take it sb has been stealing a lot? It looks kinda spewy otherwise considering you have no FE

hand 4: I muck because of someone calling before me...otherwise I think the raise might be OK.

I've barely played any 200nl though...so whatever thats worth

zook

06-04-2007, 11:37 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 2: As last to act, I think we always must bet here, regardless of whether the board is dry. I hate free cards with KK

If the board is dry and A-high, how many free cards are you afraid of? What worse hands do you get value from by betting?

JeffreyGB

06-05-2007, 02:15 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 1: I don't like semi-bluffing OESD with the A out there. I'd rather just check and take the free card.

I wasn't semi-bluffing the turn. I was attempting to rep the A in a "well, you called my c-bet, but now I hit" type of play. I think against many opps checking behind is the better line, however. Esp if they ever call the flop with A-high thinking that it was just a c-bet. Here I had no info, but in retrospect I like a check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 2: As last to act, I think we always must bet here, regardless of whether the board is dry. I hate free cards with KK

Do a search for Gabe's post about checking behind with KK in the SnG forum. It will be enlightening. In short, the concept he discusses is that you cost yourself money "protecting/defining your hand" when you pay off players holding an A and fold out every other hand. By checking you could make money from bluffers, and you're at most worried about someone hitting 5 outs - not something you should really fear much in balance against a bet that never really makes you money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand3: hard to tell without reads. I take it sb has been stealing a lot? It looks kinda spewy otherwise considering you have no FE

What range do you expect someone to open from the SB with that AJ isn't a huge favorite against (hence the reraise)? Or are you in favor of folding AJ afterwards getting better than 2-1 on the call?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 4: I muck because of someone calling before me...otherwise I think the raise might be OK.

95% of my reason for playing the hand was that someone showed weakness by limping before me. I fold 3 times as often if it's folded to me here.

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JeffreyGB

06-05-2007, 02:18 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

I agree - I'd much rather have 75s or 44 here. I'm not betting for value. I'm not trying (or willing) to play a big pot. I'm trying to protect my button (where I stand to make the most of my money). "If you want to limp, be careful, because it's often going to cost you"

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mixchange

06-05-2007, 03:38 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 1: I don't like semi-bluffing OESD with the A out there. I'd rather just check and take the free card.

Let me preface the rest of my comments with that most of my experience is at 50nl, with some success at 100NL and 200NL but my whole BR is stuck in the Neteller mess so I've been rebuilding 6 tabling at 25nl. Maybe the nth level of thinking comes a lot more at 200nl than I'm used to.

I guess your play, if it works 50% of the time, works out. But that seems like a high % -- I end up wasting too much money on fancy turn play instead of being a bit more cautious, maybe it's just a projection of my own leaks into this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 2: As last to act, I think we always must bet here, regardless of whether the board is dry. I hate free cards with KK

I suppose I'm being a bit paranoid with an overpair and may be missing some slim value on rainbow boards.

In regards to this hand, I suppose I would expect at 200NL people usually bet their FD's rather than the check-call crap at low and micro stakes, so perhaps even on a FD board you'd consider checking? Seems like blasphemy (at my stakes) but perhaps it makes sense at yours.

On a board with a FD, surely we have to bet though. I've read his KK thread, but I suppose since it's been months I should read it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand3: hard to tell without reads. I take it sb has been stealing a lot? It looks kinda spewy otherwise considering you have no FE

What range do you expect someone to open from the SB with that AJ isn't a huge favorite against (hence the reraise)? Or are you in favor of folding AJ afterwards getting better than 2-1 on the call?

Maybe I'm weak by just calling, but just because it's the SB doesn't mean villain doesn't have some kind of hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

hand 4: I muck because of someone calling before me...otherwise I think the raise might be OK.

95% of my reason for playing the hand was that someone showed weakness by limping before me. I fold 3 times as often if it's folded to me here.

I guess I just worry that the sherriff defense, if it doesn't work out, will make us look increasingly weaker. I'd rather defend my button with hands more likely to be playable after the flop.

also to wonder if your image -- have you been raising the button a lot? Maybe MP2 is calling expecting your raise if you've been playing the button aggresively. I sometimes do this to disguise a bit against aggro button players.

wufwugy

06-05-2007, 04:25 AM

#12 (permalink)

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hand 2: enough draws will call to make c-betting a little better. im not sure what to think about trying to induce a bluff by checking behind. unless the games are very bluffie, you're gonna see a lot of turn bets by aces that were gonna check/raise flop, or a lot of turn checks instead of bluffs because they're scared of a possible slowplay by your possible ace. also, if you check behind flop then call a possible bluff on turn you have to fold to a river bet even though it may be a second barrel.

the fact that there are two other players changes it a little towards checking being more plus ev, but the fact that you have the button i think makes betting more plus ev since checking is most often weakness.

hand 3: it's not so much that AJ is ahead of his open raising range, but that it's likely behind his repop range. once he reraises you have to call, but that doesn't negate the fact that your initial raise was incorrect. i see AT and KQ as teh hands you will beat most often if he threebets.

however, you may have played the hand fine. my play against shorties is very unrefined. i think that's partly because i played short for a long time and when i got action i had good hands.

hand 4: if you're gonna raise with A3 there then you may want to try raising ATC there. i think loosely protecting the button may be good against good players only.

as far as limping goes, well, i like limping. maybe as i move up i'll hafta stop doing it due to loose aggression, but maybe not. i'd rather limp fold a marginal hand that raise and be coldcalled by a dominating hand. i think at lower stakes we can use the limp/reraise profitably against loose raisers who try to punish limpers.

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