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3 hands from losing session of 25NL - Anything wrong here?

  
 
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 12:06 AM     Post subject: 3 hands from losing session of 25NL - Anything wrong here? #1 (permalink)  
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These 3 hands cost me a little over 2 buy-ins. I just finished another -3 buy-in session and I'm now down $3.79 after 8578 hands of 25NL. How do these hands look?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+2 ($7.10)
MP1 ($42.53)
MP2 ($17.03)
MP3 ($20.10)
CO ($37.69)
Button ($0)
SB ($24.65)
BB ($0)
Hero ($25)
UTG+1 ($15.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $1.50, MP2 calls $1.25, CO calls $1.

Flop: ($4.60) 7, 4, 3 (5 players)
Hero bets $2.5, MP2 folds, CO calls $2.50.

Turn: ($9.60) T (4 players)
Hero bets $5.5, CO calls $5.50.

River: ($20.60) 5 (4 players)
Hero bets $10, CO raises to $20.15, Hero calls $5.50 (All-In).

Final Pot: $56.25

************************************************** ******************

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($24.65)
Button ($13.28)
SB ($24.50)
BB ($43.54)
UTG ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, K. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.8, Button calls $0.80, SB (poster) calls $0.70, BB calls $0.55.

Flop: ($3.20) 7, Q, 9 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($3.20) K (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.92, Hero raises to $4, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $3.08.

River: ($11.20) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $5, BB raises to $10, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $31.20

************************************************** *************

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($24.30)
UTG ($33.15)
MP ($30.31)
CO ($37.80)
Button ($45.41)
SB ($19.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, CO calls $1.00, Button folds.

Flop: ($2.75) J, 8, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO calls $2.

Turn: ($6.75) K (2 players)
Hero bets $3.5, CO calls $3.50.

River: ($13.75) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $23.75
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zaaaaaak
Old 05-16-2006, 12:13 AM #2 (permalink)  
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You played these hands very well, IMO.
fal04: there's not too many hands i won't play for a quarter if i'm feeling it
fal04: i'll play 7-2 off if i feel it
 
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andy-akb
Old 05-16-2006, 12:52 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:
Raise more preflop, to atleast $2. On the flop thats a fairly small bet into a multiway pot, Id bet atleast $3, probably closer to $4. The turn is fine, buton the river why are you betting $10, leaving $5.50 behind, just push that river.


Hand 2:
The standard raise at $25nl is typically $1, thats how much Id make it preflop. A bigger raise would probably narrow the field and allow you to make a solid cbet. If I viewed the players as loose callers preflop but weak postflop then Id probably cbet, but I cant blame you for not cbetting a 4way pot. The turn raise is fine, Id raise somewhere between $4 and $5. I think I would check behind on that river, we only have TPTK here and a random flush draw could have hit [yes players will go that far with flush draws] or he could already have you beat with K9 KQ, any set, etc. The river checkraise almost always is strength, I dont think ive been checkminraised on the river with a bluff or a hand I bet [unless villain had a very strong hand and mine was a monster], I wouldnt hate folding there. I think your best bet is to check behind.


Hand 3:
I typically follow the 4xBB+1BB per limper for raising, so Id make it $1.50 preflop. I think your flop bet is fine, but Im not good with the WA/WB situations in general so everything I say about this hand take very lightly. What do people think of betting the flop and then since its called checking the turn and calling a bet on the river?
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Warpe
Old 05-16-2006, 12:56 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Hand 2 I check behind on the river. I'm a suspicious bastard and there's no need to reopen the betting there.



 
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jackvance
Old 05-16-2006, 01:15 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 If it's any comfort, 15 minutes ago I lost a $50 pot on AA vs KK vs QQ.. preflop all-in, flop was KKx. I think you played ok, this shit happens, just that thing Warpe said is what I would do too without a 'calling station' read.
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andy-akb
Old 05-16-2006, 01:21 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
If it's any comfort, 15 minutes ago I lost a $50 pot on AA vs KK vs QQ.. preflop all-in, flop was KKx. I think you played ok, this shit happens, just that thing Warpe said is what I would do too without a 'calling station' read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Hand 2 I check behind on the river. I'm a suspicious bastard and there's no need to reopen the betting there.
No comments on the other 2 hands?
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Warpe
Old 05-16-2006, 01:44 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
If it's any comfort, 15 minutes ago I lost a $50 pot on AA vs KK vs QQ.. preflop all-in, flop was KKx. I think you played ok, this shit happens, just that thing Warpe said is what I would do too without a 'calling station' read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Hand 2 I check behind on the river. I'm a suspicious bastard and there's no need to reopen the betting there.
No comments on the other 2 hands?
Hand 1 I'd pot the flop 3 handed and OOP and would probably check behind on the river there as well but I think it's all going in anyway.

Hand 3 the pair on the flop would make me nervous but I don't think you can do much different.

As far as preflop raises go, I do a standard 4x + 1 for every limper so I think hand 2 is too small...
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 01:45 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Hand 2 I check behind on the river. I'm a suspicious bastard and there's no need to reopen the betting there.
yes i need to remember not to bet in spots where i would hate to be raised.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 05:14 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
The standard raise at $25nl is typically $1, thats how much Id make it preflop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
As far as preflop raises go, I do a standard 4x + 1 for every limper so I think hand 2 is too small...
i doubt the difference between $.80 and $1.00 as an opener makes much difference in the longrun.
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givememyleg
Old 05-16-2006, 05:38 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i doubt the difference between $.80 and $1.00 as an opener makes much difference in the longrun.
You play 10,000 hands. You raise 1,500 of them to $1 rather than $.80. That's $300 more hero wins.

1 - I raise more pf. I check/call river. Everything else looks fine.
2 - Check behind river and showdown your TPTK.
3 - I prolly bet $5 on turn. Unless I had a read that CO calls with big hands I like a river push. Check calling is also fine in my book.. I like pushing or check calling more than leading out. If that makes any sense to anyone.

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Fnord
Old 05-16-2006, 05:41 AM #11 (permalink)  
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I really hate hand 1's bet sizes. You give odds to a big pot on the river.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 05:46 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i doubt the difference between $.80 and $1.00 as an opener makes much difference in the longrun.
You play 10,000 hands. You raise 1,500 of them to $1 rather than $.80. That's $300 more hero wins.
i don't know about you but i don't automatically win every time i raise pre-flop.
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givememyleg
Old 05-16-2006, 05:50 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i doubt the difference between $.80 and $1.00 as an opener makes much difference in the longrun.
You play 10,000 hands. You raise 1,500 of them to $1 rather than $.80. That's $300 more hero wins.
i don't know about you but i don't automatically win every time i raise pre-flop.
Then you need to work on that.

But on a serious note I know what you mean... but I am sure it is fair to assume that you do win more pots than you lose.

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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 06:24 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i doubt the difference between $.80 and $1.00 as an opener makes much difference in the longrun.
You play 10,000 hands. You raise 1,500 of them to $1 rather than $.80. That's $300 more hero wins.
i don't know about you but i don't automatically win every time i raise pre-flop.
Then you need to work on that.

But on a serious note I know what you mean... but I am sure it is fair to assume that you do win more pots than you lose.
why stop at 4BB's? if i opened for 8BB's over 10,000 hands just think of how rich i would be!!
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givememyleg
Old 05-16-2006, 06:45 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 Nah forget that weak stuff. Just open allin every hand.

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Turska
Old 05-16-2006, 06:47 AM     Post subject: My opinions #16 (permalink)  
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1.) I sometimes limp UTG and raise BIG if pot gets raised. If u dont do that
raise more preflop. I mix this a bit.

Bet the POT BIG After flop.

You lose 1/5 with Aces get used to it.

2.) Raise at least 1-1.5 at preflop. Bet 1/2 flop. If u get called or raised
think again. Turn bet. Just check on river.

3.) I think I would have lost this too if the guy is holding JJ or KK.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 07:03 AM     Post subject: Re: My opinions #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turska
1.) I sometimes limp UTG and raise BIG if pot gets raised. If u dont do that
raise more preflop. I mix this a bit.

Bet the POT BIG After flop.

You lose 1/5 with Aces get used to it.

2.) Raise at least 1-1.5 at preflop. Bet 1/2 flop. If u get called or raised
think again. Turn bet. Just check on river.

3.) I think I would have lost this too if the guy is holding JJ or KK.
1. please don't explain to me that my AA will lose.
2. why open for 6BB's? also, i don't like c-betting OOP (out of position) vs. 3 opponents.
3. how about 84c? pretty sweet i know.
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Turska
Old 05-16-2006, 07:34 AM     Post subject: Yeah sometimes u lose #18 (permalink)  
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1.) So its a bad beat then
2.) Site I play 1 dollar preflop raise is not often enuff. currently I
raise 1.5 to get 1-2 callers. But thats not issue here.
3. Yeah 84 is nice, nothing we can do.
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andy-akb
Old 05-16-2006, 06:32 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Stop getting so defensive when asking for advice. A lot of people are saying that your bets are too small, i dont necesarily agree with opening for 6BBs with no limpers, but your bets still are fairly small for the most part.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 06:51 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Stop getting so defensive when asking for advice. A lot of people are saying that your bets are too small, i dont necesarily agree with opening for 6BBs with no limpers, but your bets still are fairly small for the most part.
i was in a pretty bad mood last night - hence the aggression. but...i really don't think opening for .80 as opposed to $1 is as big a deal as many seem to think. and opening for much more than that seems like it would fold out dominated hands too often imo.
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pgil
Old 05-16-2006, 07:29 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Stop getting so defensive when asking for advice. A lot of people are saying that your bets are too small, i dont necesarily agree with opening for 6BBs with no limpers, but your bets still are fairly small for the most part.
i was in a pretty bad mood last night - hence the aggression. but...i really don't think opening for .80 as opposed to $1 is as big a deal as many seem to think. and opening for much more than that seems like it would fold out dominated hands too often imo.
its very table/site/player dependant for sure.

but, when I first moved to ring from SNG's, I used the standard 3xBB raise pf, and got way too many callers and way too many multiway pots, and I got killed. after a while I made it 4xBB, and it has worked wonders. its amazing how much of an effect it can have on your opponents to increase your raise by even a small amount. and if 4x doesnt work at your table, then make it 5x, and continue to do this until you find the amount that gets you what you want.
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Warpe
Old 05-16-2006, 07:50 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Stop getting so defensive when asking for advice. A lot of people are saying that your bets are too small, i dont necesarily agree with opening for 6BBs with no limpers, but your bets still are fairly small for the most part.
i was in a pretty bad mood last night - hence the aggression. but...i really don't think opening for .80 as opposed to $1 is as big a deal as many seem to think. and opening for much more than that seems like it would fold out dominated hands too often imo.
You got 3 callers.
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bair
Old 05-16-2006, 08:42 PM #23 (permalink)  
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hand 1: you're out of position, and you bet all 3 streets with 1 pair. make fewer, larger bets. there is a suited connector on the board along with a 2-gapper. that = draw-heavy. that = pot-sized bet. raise more preflop. i would have made it 1.50 even if the first guy didnt raise. i make it at least 2.25 here, if they fold, who cares, if they call, punish them on the flop. river is a DEFINITE check/call, if that.

hand 2: well i know you've heard enough about preflop...but i make it 1.00 here, just a good habit to get into, .80 is asking for a table full of callers. river is a definite check behind after he called your big turn raise. looks like a pretty obvious flush line to me.

hand 3: 1.50 preflop at least. bet more on the turn, opp will be weary of betting into you on the river. allows for cheaper showdowns.

your bets are definitely too small...people are probably floating against you all day long in position. 2 big bets is definitely better than 4 small bets.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 09:07 PM #24 (permalink)  
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alright everybody i'll start raising more pre-flop and see how it goes. i appreciate everyone's input.
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mcatdog
Old 05-16-2006, 09:12 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Making bigger preflop raises is a good idea but I don't think it's nearly as important as making larger bets on the flop and beyond.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2006, 09:12 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
Making bigger preflop raises is a good idea but I don't think it's nearly as important as making larger bets on the flop and beyond.
agreed
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strawman
Old 05-17-2006, 12:55 AM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
The standard raise at $25nl is typically $1, thats how much Id make it preflop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
As far as preflop raises go, I do a standard 4x + 1 for every limper so I think hand 2 is too small...
i doubt the difference between $.80 and $1.00 as an opener makes much difference in the longrun.
What about your pot equity? Say your Aces have 70% equity preflop against one caller and 60% against two . Over the long run your share of the extra .20 is .14 per hand and .40 is .26 per hand respectively. By not putting in a larger raise you are making a difference to yourself over the long run by not taking advantage of your equity edge.

What's the other huge difference that it makes? An extra .20 investment preflop might result in the one hand that could beat you fold. Even if it doesn't, you might end up losing that .20 you saved preflop when you lose your stack. There are a lot of PPs I'll fold if there is a strong raise and I'll pretty much call with them all if it is a weak raise that get's a couple of callers and I kill the betting.
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nutsinho
Old 05-17-2006, 01:12 AM #28 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1-you must pot that ugly flop
as played, pot committing yourself with one pair on semi-ugly river card is bad

Hand 2- you jammed up the pot in position with tptk on a board where someone could easily have you beat but you think you can show down cheap-nice play-now check behind on any non-ace river

3-fine
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