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To 3 barrel or not to 3 barrel, that is . . .

  
 
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holdin2
Old 06-03-2006, 11:30 AM     Post subject: To 3 barrel or not to 3 barrel, that is . . . #1 (permalink)  
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holdin2
So I hadn't caught any cards for the whole sessions so far, so decided to limp in this one.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($37.70)
BB ($36.30)
UTG ($35.75)
Hero ($24.75)
MP1 ($8.80)
MP2 ($8.55)
CO ($8.70)
Button ($15.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8, T. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 4 folds, SB (poster) checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 5, 3, Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.5, SB calls $0.50.

Turn: ($1.50) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, SB calls $1.

River: ($3.50) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $3.50

I am never sure what to do here. I feel if I fire out another bet I'm probably spewing money since he called the two previous and I got jack. If I check I feel super weak, have no chance of taking the pot and my weak cards are exposed.

Better for table image to just fire out another and take a chance, then even if I lose it maybe I get some action next time on the river when I do have something since I appear to keep betting crap?
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andy-akb
Old 06-03-2006, 03:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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A 3bet and a third bullet/barrel are different things, this would be a third bullet where a 3bet is when you bet, are raised and then reraise.

Anyways though, preflop I really dont like this play, expecially from EP. You will go through stretches where you dont get cards for awhile, but playing marginal hands out of early position isnt a good remedy for that. Steal blinds, make position plays, etc. If Im going to play this hand Id probably play it for a raise preflop and hope to take it down there or with a flop cbet.

The flop seems fine, its checked to you, you bet and hope to take it down there and even if you dont you still have 9 outs to a flush. That turn doesnt really help you and its going to be hard to get your opponent to believe it did. He check/called the flop, so there is a chance he is on a draw, but if he is calling that flop I dont think he is going to fold this turn very often, Id check behind here. The river is fairly read dependent, what kind of opponent are you playing against? At these microstakes you will find players who check/call all the way down to the river with a draw, regardless of bet size, and then fold to a bet on the river when their draw blanks. If you think your opponent is one of those players, I would bet, you dont even really beat a busted draw, because chances are its better than T high. If he is passive enough to call down with a Q and not bet, then I would fold here. Yes, fold. You dont want to show that you played T8s from EP. So bet if you think it will fold out a busted draw that would still beat you, or fold if you think he has a hand he wont let go of.
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holdin2
Old 06-03-2006, 03:51 PM #3 (permalink)  
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holdin2
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
A 3bet and a third bullet/barrel are different things, this would be a third bullet where a 3bet is when you bet, are raised and then reraise.
Yes, that's what I meant, sorry. I knew that

Never thoguht about outright folding...but doesn't that pretty much say the same thing? I was totally full of shit?
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andy-akb
Old 06-03-2006, 03:59 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdin2
Never thoguht about outright folding...but doesn't that pretty much say the same thing? I was totally full of shit?
Haha yea I agree that it doesnt look to great, but not much really looks good here, and I say it sort of half joking. However, Im really not sure what would be better, simply check behind or fold. A fold looks like a huge donk move but doesnt really give out too much info about your hand, if you check behind you are showing down a weak hand that really doesnt beat nearly anything SB could have. So thats still sort of up in the air, something I dont really do but when I think about it, it could be ok in some random spot like this.

Anyways though, do you have any read on the villain in this hand?
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Lukie
Old 06-03-2006, 05:53 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 fold preflop

other then that, I think this hand is played fine. I'd check behind the turn sometimes. And sometimes bet the river.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Anyways though, preflop I really dont like this play, expecially from EP. You will go through stretches where you dont get cards for awhile, but playing marginal hands out of early position isnt a good remedy for that. Steal blinds, make position plays, etc. If Im going to play this hand Id probably play it for a raise preflop and hope to take it down there or with a flop cbet.
i agree

Quote:
...then I would fold here. Yes, fold. You dont want to show that you played T8s from EP. So bet if you think it will fold out a busted draw that would still beat you, or fold if you think he has a hand he wont let go of.
wow this is terrible advice man, no offense. First, believe it or not, our hand does have some value. A tiny bit no doubt, but it can still beat 2 lower diamonds, provided one of those isn't the 6.

2nd, you WANT to show that you played T8s here. Because open limping this hand in this position is really bad. Free advertising.

3rd, we want to see what kind of hand this guy check/call's 2 streets with on a drawy board then checks to us on the river.
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givememyleg
Old 06-03-2006, 06:20 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
3rd, we want to see what kind of hand this guy check/call's 2 streets with on a drawy board then checks to us on the river.
Yeah I was also thinking if anything, you want to at least see villians hand.

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andy-akb
Old 06-03-2006, 07:04 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
fold preflop
Quote:
...then I would fold here. Yes, fold. You dont want to show that you played T8s from EP. So bet if you think it will fold out a busted draw that would still beat you, or fold if you think he has a hand he wont let go of.
wow this is terrible advice man, no offense. First, believe it or not, our hand does have some value. A tiny bit no doubt, but it can still beat 2 lower diamonds, provided one of those isn't the 6.

2nd, you WANT to show that you played T8s here. Because open limping this hand in this position is really bad. Free advertising.

3rd, we want to see what kind of hand this guy check/call's 2 streets with on a drawy board then checks to us on the river.
I said it half joking, but didnt really make that very clear, Ill still respond to your points for "discussion" purposes though.

We really dont beat much at all here, two lower diamonds, the 8 and 5 are accounted for, the most likely would be 97, 76, 64, 43, 32, maybe 96. We beat 97, even if he is limping any 2 non connected at all diamonds, there really is not much at all we beat, toss in 92 and 94 and 72, those are all incredibly unlikely though. So for your first point, we are rarely winning this with T high, because even against two diamonds, any lower ones hit a pair or maybe a random straight.

Your second point is advertising, you want to advertise bad play and you say open limping T8s is bad [i agree here], but then say folding is horrible. If we are talking about advertising [albeit false], then I would be more apt to pay attention to somebody who folded when checked to in a heads up pot on the river than somebody who showed down a suited gapper.

I think the third point is the only one that really applies here, you would gain valuable information by seeing what sort of hand he had here. So in actual play I would obviously check behind hoping to gain some info and make a note of my opponents play.

Im weary to suggest metagame at $25nl, but I would be surprised not to see the chat light up after folding when checked to in a headsup pot on the river and would expect to get more action later in the session because of it. This is an incredibly marginal situation either way, your pot equity is incredibly small because you beat so few holdings. Is folding -ev? Obviously, but checking behind is to, the difference is that when you fold you give up your equity which in this situation is incredibly small and I think could be offset by more action on later hands.

Again, this is something I suggested more as a joke than anything, and it isnt a play I would make, but I dont think it would be absolutely horrible.
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