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2nd barrels against loose passives

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TerryToma

08-10-2006, 04:37 AM Post subject: 2nd barrels against loose passives

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

I have had a c-bet in my arsenal for quite some time. However I usually tend to give up on the turn unimproved. Tonight I tried adding a second barrel vs loose/passives.

UTG+1 was 41/0

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, 25NL (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($55.00)
SB ($24.50)
BB ($20.60)
UTG ($28.10)
UTG+1 ($24.25)
UTG+2 ($24.75)
MP1 ($33.40)
MP2 ($12.30)
MP3 ($35.15)
CO ($5.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4

, A

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 5 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.25.

Flop: ($3.40) 8

, T

, J

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $2, UTG+1 calls $2.

Turn: ($7.40) 6

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $5, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $12.40

BB was 55/0
Standard? I'm not used to 2nd barrels. Please comment.

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, 25NL (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($11.55)
Hero ($25.90)
MP3 ($27.30)
CO ($27.85)
Button ($16.85)
SB ($28.75)
BB ($27.35)
UTG ($13.35)
UTG+1 ($20.60)
UTG+2 ($58.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8

, 8

.
4 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, Button calls $1, SB calls $0.85, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($4) 9

, 6

, K

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $2.

Turn: ($8) 2

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4.5, BB folds.

Final Pot: $12.50

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TerryToma

08-16-2006, 06:54 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

*crickets*

What are your criteria for second barrels?? Do these situations call for them?
Do you ever take a stab at the flop in position with Axs unimproved, but a backdoor flush draw?? I was thinking the odds of hitting a backdoor aka runner runner flush are about 12.5%, is this right?

MiJ

08-16-2006, 08:56 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Miami

Posts: 208

i second barrel mostly to defend against potential floaters ,if i spot a floater and the flop is harmless and i have outs ..i'll shoot another barrel but i dont do it 2 often .....againstt loose passive/calling stations i probably dont keep betting because they'll call u down with nothing...i might not even cbet for the same reason ...

biondino

08-16-2006, 10:02 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

No, the odds of hitting a runner runner flush are 10/47 x 9/46 = just over 4%.

Also, take notes on people who float or regularly call (or raise) cont bets - it'd be extremely useful to know their minimum showdown hands (2nd pair? TPWK? Air?), as well as how they play their monsters.

Fnord

08-16-2006, 10:14 AM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

The second barrel is becomming the new c-bet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

arkana

08-16-2006, 10:17 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 1,109

Knowing when to fire the second barrel comes down to knowing your opponents tendencies, putting him on a range of hands and deciding if he will fold often enough given his range and tendencies on that board. There are also other factors like your image. Its not possible to analyse those hands out of context with the information supplied and give you an absolute answer, but against your average opponent I don't think those are good spots for a second barrel.

In the first hand all we know about your opponent is that he is loose and passive preflop. Given that he just called on the flop he most likely has a drawing hand. The turn completed the flush so you are often betting into the flush, and a straight draw could have potentially picked up some flush outs now as well and probably wont be very scared of you having the flush. I think you could possibly fold out hands like QJ, 99 etc but given that the opponent is quite loose (at least preflop) and the hands he possibly folds dont make up the majority of his range I would expect you to get called here more often than not. Certain players are very loose on the flop but often give up on the turn (especially when scare cards hit), against a player like that this could be +EV but against someone who makes loose calls on the flop+turn I think this is -EV.

In the second hand I dont c-bet that flop in a 4-way pot. When you get called by the big blind he almost certainly has you beat as there are no real draws. So it comes down to whether or not he will fold most of his range to a bet on the turn, in my experience someone who is that loose preflop will often call down more than one bet.

Being able to fire a second barrel without a made hand will definitely make you much tougher to play against, but you need to pick your spots well otherwise you will start spewing.

Renton

08-16-2006, 04:59 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Quote:

Here’re my guidelines for second barreling:

-If you pick up some outs on the turn, then be more likely to fire a second barrel. If you think your villain is strong and you are in position, check the turn and try to catch your card and bust him, instead of betting the turn and risking being raised off.

-If a weak player calls on the flop when its draw heavy and no obvious draws complete on the turn, then be more likely to fire again. In this spot be even more likely to fire again if your hand has showdown value (like AK or a small pair).

-If a solid player calls you on a paired rag board like 779, be more likely to fire a second barrel.

-There’s no standard situation to second barrel. Don’t overuse this play.

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2nd barrels against loose passives

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