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25NL. KK out of position. Thoughts?

  
 
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DogOnMySide
Old 02-13-2006, 09:42 PM     Post subject: 25NL. KK out of position. Thoughts? #1 (permalink)  
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No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $9.55
UTG+1: $3.15
MP1: $24.30
MP2: $31.30
MP3: $16.60
CO: $24.30
Button: $30.25
Hero: $21.25
BB: $10.85

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with K K
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.6, BB folds, UTG calls $1.25, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $1.25.

Flop: 7 2 Q ($5.3, 3 players)
Hero bets $2.25, UTG folds, MP2 calls $2.25.

Turn: 4 ($9.8, 2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP2 raises to $10.5, Hero raises all-in $17.5, MP2 calls $7.

River: 5 ($44.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $44.8)


Results:
Final pot: $44.8

I'll post my own thoughts on it tomorrow. Comments etc welcome. TY
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freechus9
Old 02-13-2006, 09:51 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I think it's good. I'd put villain on a flush draw that caught on the river.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 02-13-2006, 11:05 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 i'd cry call, it's 50/50 whather u are winning or not.
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 02-13-2006, 11:37 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Preflop raise is good;standard 3x the BB plus one BB for each limper.

On the flop I'd probably bet more;around $4-$5.A $2.25 bet gives any flush draw the proper odds to call;you want to bet closer to 3/4 to take away their 33% odds BUT still give them a slight chance to call.

On the turn you need to bet closer to $6;if you want to get off the hand then this is ok because $6 doesn't pot commit you but won't scream as much weakness as $5 into a nearly $10 pot(you really can't bet half the pot on the turn,you should only do so on the river if you want a call).

Since opponent is shortstacked I think a push either way is fine.If this was multiway with a paired board a fold is ok;but heads up on the turn with no clear straight or realistic two pair I think you have to push and pay off any set or straight/flush to hits the river.
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Fnord
Old 02-13-2006, 11:42 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Make it $3 pre-flop.
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Pelion
Old 02-14-2006, 12:00 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Make it $3 pre-flop.
Isnt 12BB a little excessive? There have been no raises so far and Hero wants some action as well as not giving away his hand with his bet size. If he raises to $3 here then what should he raise when he gets JJ... or TT.... or AJ etc...

I dont think 2 callers is too many with KK.

That turn raise looks very much like a set. Im hopeless at putting these down but id say theres a good chance you are behind. The Q makes it impossible for him to have an overpair and in my experience most people wont raise you with just a Q. With half a stack left I think I fold. On the turn its all going in after he raises you (unless you fold) so you need to put in another $12.50 to win $32.30.

thats just about 2.5:1

I dont think you are winning often enough to call...
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Fnord
Old 02-14-2006, 12:30 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
Isnt 12BB a little excessive?
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
There have been no raises so far and Hero wants some action as well as not giving away his hand with his bet size.
You're out of position
There is cash on the table
$3 will get some action, some short buy with a pair or Ax will probably push over your silly bet anyway because you've made it clear we're playing pre-flop poker.
Playing a well defined hand in a lightly raised pot (giving stuff like pairs implied odds to call) is a great way to lose money in big bet poker.
If you regularly don't get action, make this play with some trashy maybe suited-connectedy stuff.
Raising more than 2-5% of your hands pre-flop helps you induce calls when you make this play.
Pushing has a positive expectation of at least $1. Any other line must beat that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
If he raises to $3 here then what should he raise when he gets JJ... or TT.... or AJ etc...
I'll let others elaborate. I think potting any of these holdings out of the blinds will cause you a fair amount of grief. Certainly it does against stronger opposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
I dont think 2 callers is too many with KK.
I hope they all call the $3 so I can push any flop that doesn't suck.
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DogOnMySide
Old 02-14-2006, 11:22 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the comments. Appreciated.

Fnord, i've read you say this about preflop raises before a few times - including that thread about whether destacking someone is actually your aim - and in situations like this i can see that perhaps risking taking just the.. what... 4xBB on offer preflop... might be a good choice.

HOWEVER:

Pelion - you were right about the set. Villain holds 77. I just didn't feel that his turn re-raise (Hero bets $5, MP2 raises to $10.5) indicated that. My best guess was AQ and an unimaginative opponent. Turns out it was me being unimaginiative.

Would the raise to $3 have got rid of a mid pair? I don't think so.

I don't feel bad about it - it's variance in action - but it's the old "fell in love with an overpair" syndrome which i would like to avoid.I just couldn't drop KK to a small turn re-raise with a soft board.
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Fnord
Old 02-14-2006, 11:30 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogOnMySide
Would the raise to $3 have got rid of a mid pair? I don't think so.
No, but it protects your Kings from a profitable 77 call.
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Silly String
Old 02-14-2006, 02:14 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I don't like the 1/2 pot bet on the flop. It feigns weakness and doesn't tell you enough about your opponents hand. You don't have a hand that is way ahead of a raise on the flop, so I bet 3/4pot to full pot and see how interested the opponent is.

I don't mind 1/2 pot bets on the turn. Some opponents drawing that are willing to call $2.50 on the flop may not be willing to call $5 on the turn with only one card to come. Fish incorrectly use the 2 to 1 pot odds for flop draws all the time without realizing they are overpaying for turn cards. If you aren't sure you're ahead controling the size of the pot will save you a lot of money. This turn line makes it harder for the opponent to get it all in without making it obvious to you that you are beat. Unless, of course, you are playing an aggressive opponent.
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STIdrivr
Old 02-14-2006, 06:36 PM #11 (permalink)  
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i think this is what makes it look like a set...
villian limps and calls a normal raise. Just calls a bet on the flop and raises small on turn.
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BankItDrew
Old 02-14-2006, 07:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 This looks like a set, and are most likely beat.

Think about the second best hand here next to yours: Ace Queen diamonds. I don't see this hand making a raise like this on the turn, but rather a raise on the flop.

His raise here indicates that he has better than one pair. If he was smart and was on a flush draw, why would they raise enough for an overpair to call?

If it's a flush, they suck. If it's a set, it's all too common @ 25NL.


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Alibi
Old 02-15-2006, 01:53 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Definitely bump it to $3 preflop.
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