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25NL K8s Free Flop. Can I shove this hand?

  
 
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runningaces
Old 03-28-2007, 11:24 AM     Post subject: 25NL K8s Free Flop. Can I shove this hand? #1 (permalink)  
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It's my very first hand at the table so I have nought on players. I get in cheap with K8s. I think it's a good flop, outs galore, is it ok to check/call or should I be trying to build a pot with this many outs. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $7.05
UTG+1: $11.95
MP1: $67.10
Hero: $25
MP3: $121.15
CO: $25.20
Button: $3.25
SB: $8.75
BB: $25

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1, folds, Hero (poster) checks, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB (poster) checks.

Flop: ($1.5, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets $1.5, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: ($4.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $4.5, Hero calls.

River: ($13.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $8, MP3 calls.

Results:
Final pot: $29.5
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Knytestorme
Old 03-28-2007, 11:41 AM #2 (permalink)  
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On the flop would be where to get it in if you are doing it anywhere.

OTOH, that river bet is just...don't think words can describe. If ever there is a place to check in this hand that's it. On the river you are behind to a naked 7, you are behind to the flush, you are behind to 58, 8T, 67, etc...basically you are beating air here pretty much and air won't call your bet.
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zook
Old 03-28-2007, 06:43 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I bet the flop, but c/c'ing isn't bad. As played I fold the turn. He's betting pot so you aren't getting great odds and with the board pairing your outs aren't clean.
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bbqsquirrel
Old 03-28-2007, 11:48 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knytestorme
On the flop would be where to get it in if you are doing it anywhere.

OTOH, that river bet is just...don't think words can describe. If ever there is a place to check in this hand that's it. On the river you are behind to a naked 7, you are behind to the flush, you are behind to 58, 8T, 67, etc...basically you are beating air here pretty much and air won't call your bet.
I totally disagree (i.e. I support betting this river). Opponent betting pot on each street (especially turn) is a sign that villain has a vulnerable hand, and that villain is making a draw (flush or 8) pay. It's not clear to the villain that the river K helped hero's hand. If villain had A9 or TT or even 88 he will for sure check behind, and hero would miss values against those hands. (of course hero can fold to a shove)
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drtofu66
Old 03-29-2007, 02:52 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbqsquirrel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knytestorme
On the flop would be where to get it in if you are doing it anywhere.

OTOH, that river bet is just...don't think words can describe. If ever there is a place to check in this hand that's it. On the river you are behind to a naked 7, you are behind to the flush, you are behind to 58, 8T, 67, etc...basically you are beating air here pretty much and air won't call your bet.
I totally disagree (i.e. I support betting this river). Opponent betting pot on each street (especially turn) is a sign that villain has a vulnerable hand, and that villain is making a draw (flush or 8) pay. It's not clear to the villain that the river K helped hero's hand. If villain had A9 or TT or even 88 he will for sure check behind, and hero would miss values against those hands. (of course hero can fold to a shove)
I either lead or C/R the flop with OES+FD's as long as I'm the one driving the action. I like a C/R in this case since it's HU but I'd have to slow down OOP if we miss and he keeps calling. And I probably fold the turn (97 and 76 are both very possible at 10NL on Full Tilt in an unraised pot. Maybe 25NL is different, but I doubt it. And I think a flopped set bets this way, protecting/pot-building against a super draw-heavy board).

And I wouldn't post in MP-- more often than not it's a waste of a BB.

As for betting the river, I agree with Knytestorme; I tend to C/C reasonable bets in this situation. Without a read (and without some meta-game plan in mind), you turned a hand with decent SD value into a bluff if your plan is to get away from a shove. Maybe I'm just a SD muppet, but don't we WANT to show this hand down cheaply? Villain is potting it each street; the 'vulnerable hand' that he is protecting could easily be the made straight, set, or 2 pair. Us checking the river looks like a missed FD. I'm pretty sure most players will still valuebet their A9, T9, 96, 88 or whatever which are the only hands we beat (and some won't call an $8 bet on the river here with those hands with an overcard falling). Even K9 is possible at these stakes. The value we might be missing in not leading the river here is made up for the number of times we gain when we check/call their valuebet when we're ahead and the ones we lose by spewing chips after we're beat by T8, 99, 77, 66, K9 and don't realize that we're behind until we get raised.
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zook
Old 03-29-2007, 05:59 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drtofu66
And I wouldn't post in MP
I didn't notice this first time around. Wait for the BB to come around!
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