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200nl - I think this is a very standard fold but w/e, posted

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 12-06-2009, 07:32 AM     Post subject: 200nl - I think this is a very standard fold but w/e, posted #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain who lead the turn was a 15/10 regular, 32% ATS over a few hundred hands (haven't really tangled or anything). The other villain is a fish of some sort. I figure that when he leads the turn his range is pretty strong because the fish called on flop so its not like he's ever bluffing here (he also called flop OOP so he's got something ldo). With top pair with a J kicker there isn't really worse he's value betting. He could push me off a chop and get value from the fish, however, I presume he is going to have many more hands in his range that crush me which he is value betting.

I know this is pretty standard but I'm just trying to get more active in posting hands and explaining my thoughts. Maybe a leak that goes unnoticed will be spotted and throughout the process we can learn something. Perhaps I made a bad fold and there is something missing in my logic, which I will be happily open for discussion about because I can't see this being anything but a fold. If we were heads up well, that's different. But given the position of the fish who appears interested in the pot was enough to just muck it.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($200)
SB ($458)
BB ($222.65)
UTG ($526.90)
UTG+1 ($467.25)
MP1 ($182.60)
MP2 ($200)
MP3 ($248.90)
CO ($118.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, Q
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, 3 folds, Hero bets $8, SB calls $7, 1 fold, MP1 calls $6

Flop: ($26) 9, 7, Q (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $16, SB calls $16, MP1 calls $16

Turn: ($74) 5 (3 players)
SB bets $46, 1 fold, Hero folds

Total pot: $74 | Rake: $3

I guess it's possible he could have JT and be semi bluffing, but AQ, KQ, 99, 77, (maybe 68s??) are all in his value range. What do you guys think? (BTW I posted this at 3:30am so I might change my perspective entirely by tomorrow lol)
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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daven
Old 12-06-2009, 08:22 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 do you typically iso this size? c-bet seems small.

Turn fold is fine, raising is gross. Calling wouldn't be terrible.
I probably call here, but if i'd sized flop bigger and he still lead turn then it's a fold.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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badgers
Old 12-06-2009, 08:49 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Looks like a very easy fold. Regs don't take this line as a bluff especially with the fish being in the pot. Raising is massively horrible but I think calling is a pretty huge leak as well. fwiw sizing wise I also go 4x preflop when isolating in LP, cbet is a little on the small side but I don't think it matters too much.
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Deanglow
Old 12-06-2009, 04:29 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Preflop is pretty bad, check the flop
 
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LeanAndMean
Old 12-06-2009, 04:37 PM #5 (permalink)  
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you gotta be kidding, 50/600 is considered mid level? that seems gargantuan to me!! Anyway, to this post, this is exactly the sort of situation I had in mind when I posted my NL vs FL question. I would call here with QJ and probably lose my session BR. No doubt the fold is best, but that tells the SB you are a pushover for a big bet. Hope you get a lot ;more answers to this question, I am very interested
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badgers
Old 12-06-2009, 06:56 PM #6 (permalink)  
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In what way is preflop at all bad? It's a really obvious iso and the sizing, while on the small side, is fine imo. I want to get in pots with fish when I have position not scare them off with large raises... But I don't think it matters much either way beyond personal preference.

I also really disagree with checking the flop.. It's not like SB is gonna be c/r bluffing with a high frequency so we don't need to worry about that. Betting the flop maximises value from the fish and forces the SB to play really straight-forwardly since he has bad relative and absolute position. I think the fish is going to call a flop bet more than a turn bet and I also think there is a hand protection argument for betting the flop.

It all depends a lot on the fish though.. fish stats?
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Micro2Macro
Old 12-06-2009, 08:37 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 My standard sizing for pre is 3bb from all positions, 3.5bb bvb (unless I'm lazy and just 3x it), and 4x when isolating IP, then 4-6x when OOP depending on stack sizes/villain and also 5x when in an earlier position at the table, (<MP2ish).

imo the problem with isolating too big in this spot is it creates more dead money for other regs to go after with 3bets because yeah, it's pretty obvious I'm basically just raising with my button opening range here when someone limps. And, since I'm in position, my advantage is greater with a higher SPR since I have more room to maneuver postflop - which I think is great because I'll be playing alot of speculative hands in this spot that aren't always just looking to make a pair and get the stacks in.

As for the 'fish', I only had 5 hands on him but I just assumed he was bad because he wasn't sitting with a full stack and he just open limped. His screen name was also something retarded. But I don't really know how passive or aggressive he is postflop yet.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Deanglow
Old 12-06-2009, 10:56 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Damn, I thought you 3bet preflop. As played yeah I guess fold the turn
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 12-06-2009, 11:03 PM #9 (permalink)  
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 12-06-2009, 11:03 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
Damn, I thought you 3bet preflop. As played yeah I guess fold the turn
lol now that would be terrible :P
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Ravageur
Old 12-07-2009, 03:55 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Pf is fine, on flop I would be betting a bit bigger because it's a 3 way pot on a pretty drawy board, so something around 20 i like more to punish these guys.

Turn is a fold. Sure sometimes we are going to fold the best hand but i think we're crushed here enough that it's a fold. If this was HU it'd be entirely different ofc.
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