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2/4 spot with KK

  
 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 04-20-2010, 01:10 AM     Post subject: 2/4 spot with KK #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain in the hand is a reg but a little more loose and passive then normal. UTG raiser was a looser-aggressive regular.

1) Preflop standard?

2) What do you do on the river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($400)
UTG ($400)
UTG+1 ($400)
MP1 ($506.20)
MP2 ($419)
Hero (MP3) ($730.30)
CO ($583)
Button ($463.20)
SB ($396)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, K
UTG bets $10, 3 folds, Hero calls $10, CO raises to $44, 4 folds, Hero calls $34

Flop: ($104) 10, 8, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($104) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $74, CO calls $74

River: ($252) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $88, CO raises to $465 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $428 | Rake: $3
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wakeup
Old 04-21-2010, 08:14 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I porb just backraise pre if his range is wide for the squeeze, if not i dont mind your line

I think rivers a fold without any history although he only reps hearts
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adamczar
Old 04-21-2010, 01:08 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Why not bet the flop? (I'm asking seriously, I'm trying to learn).
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Halv
Old 04-21-2010, 11:36 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 a) is flatting KK vs a lag (even if utg) standard? After the 3b I prolly just backraise and get it in (vs KK+/AK which is probably what a passive-ish player gets 150bb in with? if he was more aggro I'd backraise for sure) to avoid oop guessing games.

b) I'd prolly make the river bet a little bit larger, whatever he calls 88 with he prolly calls 120 with, no?

What hand do you call the river shove with?

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OhioRounder
Old 04-22-2010, 12:09 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Bet the flop. I don't mind getting it in right there. You wanted a non-Ace flop and that's what you got. As played, river bet looks weak, so perhaps you induced a bluff without actually meaning to. I don't hate a call here actually.
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-22-2010, 01:34 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 Might sound results oriented but what about a turn c/r..(or c/c)

Backdoor draws and overcards would make up a reasonable part of his delay-cbet range and most are going to be firing this turn.
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BooG690
Old 04-22-2010, 01:55 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 Why do we bet $88 on the river? I don't want to sound like a parrot but villain's calling range is about the same when you bet $100/$110, no?

As you made the bet, were you planning to fold to a raise/shove? I feel villain has many bluffs in his range when you bet this size. Again, this was said before but I am honestly trying to learn and understand your thinking.

I feel like such a station since I'd probably call here. It seems our hand is underrepresented and he is looking to bluff us off the pot.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
 
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BooG690
Old 04-22-2010, 02:00 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 FWIW, against a range like {QQ,AcKc,AhKh,AcQc}, we have 33% equity.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 04-22-2010, 05:16 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 On betting the flop: This is just being results oriented. I expect this flop is going to be bet if the player bluffed pre, if i lead im just taking away his oppourtunity to bluff.

On flatting KK: Ive been thinking about this a lot. I had not been active against utg so i felt like he basically would get it in with QQ-AA, and maybe flat ak and some pairs if i reraised. He could also 4bet bluff but i didnt think it was likely because, again i wasnt active. It actually is very beneficial to flat kk even against someone with a wide pre range because he's going to play aggressively and usually not have the best hand. I'm going to win a lot of medium pots this way.

The flat of the squeeze is definitely debateable but i thought it was possible that he'd flat AK or QQ pre so i;d rather take a flop and let him bluff if he had air.

On the river: I actually messed up, my question is more on the river bet in the first place. When he raises i feel like this is a clear cut fold he likely has AKhh or QQ. But should i bet at all? I think i may not get value from worse even with a small bet
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Stacks
Old 04-22-2010, 07:07 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 I like the initial flat preflop, and in general I agree with you about flatting EP opens with large pairs (even from the blinds at times). It just seems people give them loads of credit, and I know some players are folding QQ/AK (I do at times). So you are effectively narrowing his range way down to where you basically either cooler him or get coolered. Whereas, if you flat preflop, you have a strengthened your flatting range, and will win a lot more medium sized pots postflop.

I'm pretty impartial to whether flatting the squeeze or backraising being better. I'm not sure it's clear cut enough not to be doing both with some frequency.

Flop, agree with checking, and my intention would be to call.

After he checks back flop, I'm looking to bet/fold turn.. I'm torn as to why people want to check/raise turn. Not sure if he would felt AQ, and that's the only hand we would be getting value from if we check/raise turn. I think I like just betting turn more.

River - I think I like your plan to bet/fold. Sizing also. We are looking to get value from AQ, and I think that's his most likely holding at this time. I'd expect QQ to bet the flop, or raise the turn some % of the time.
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:13 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 Regarding the flop is villain's shoes.. You said you expect him to cbet this flop with his 3bet bluffing range.. I'm not so sure about that. Your range is typically transparent in this situation, and is pretty unlikely to be folding to 1 bet. If he cbets here with his 3bet bluffing range, not only does he have to worry about betting into a strong (overpair) type range, but also about being check/raised, and having to fold. With a hand like A2s, I think I can see cbetting for the times you flat AK preflop.

But with a hand like AK/AQ, I'm typically lost in villain's shoes here. A bet has no inherent value, and you aren't folding any better hands to a single bet. Against an unknown, I'm not sure how capable they are with folding overpairs, and typically check behind. Is this terrible?
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Halv
Old 04-22-2010, 09:10 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 I typically check back overs in villains shoes here if I 3-bet them preflop. I'd much rather cbet some of my junk, preferably with some kind of weak/backdoor draw since I'm gonna barrel away a lot. So as hero, is the standard plan to c/c down? Lots of ugly cards that can show up on turn+riv :\.

I do like betting the riv ~half pot, I think there's enough value against AQs/Qxs junk (depending on squeeze tendencies, not sure what "more passive than normal" means at 2/4)/JJ sometimes. With no flop bet or turn raise AA and sets have to be discounted a lot.

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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-22-2010, 11:21 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 OOP i feel like you have to backraise pre.

I'd absolutely call river as well. What do you think he possibly has here?
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Renton
Old 04-23-2010, 10:58 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 I would bet fold the river for a larger amount.

Preflop is highly debatable either way, and I do both depending on mood.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 04-23-2010, 11:34 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan View Post
OOP i feel like you have to backraise pre.

I'd absolutely call river as well. What do you think he possibly has here?
Lol what? Definitely AKhh.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 04-23-2010, 11:35 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 in fullring there's a lot more flop give-ups
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-25-2010, 02:28 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld View Post
Lol what? Definitely AKhh.
So we put him on one hand with one combo and we fold here? That seems pretty difficult to feel good about.
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Renton
Old 04-25-2010, 03:29 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 There are several flush combos to worry about, and QQ makes sense as well.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 04-26-2010, 03:44 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan View Post
So we put him on one hand with one combo and we fold here? That seems pretty difficult to feel good about.
Danny i was confident he wasnt bluffing here.
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:21 AM #20 (permalink)  
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 If I limp and luckily get a preflop raisor, I would 4bet.

River bet is really small.

As played I fold.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-26-2010, 06:59 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Danny i was confident he wasnt bluffing here.
Maybe your right in this case, but there are two big components in hand reading to whether or not someone is bluffing or not.

1. Whether the situation is a situation where you expect your opponent to bluff.

2. What the ratio of non made hands and made hands they would play the same way up to this point.

Clearly, with #2, there is a strong case for him bluffing. As you said though, this is probably trumped by #1.
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daven
Old 04-27-2010, 01:52 AM #22 (permalink)  
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 i like bet-fold river smaller and it's a fold to the raise.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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