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pokerfan
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04-04-2008, 11:44 AM
Post subject: 100NL, TT(set) vs river raise on flushy board!
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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villain is 24/5.9/1.6 over 169 hands, quite passive. Do you guys call his small turn bet? On the river, its like he raised me with made flush or just some worse sets and two pairs ?? Also, how often you throw out a 3 bet here?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($58.50)
UTG+1 ($130.70)
MP1 ($291.95)
MP2 ($122.50)
MP3 ($96.50)
CO ($19)
Button ($101)
SB ($72.35)
Hero ($222.60)
Preflop: Hero is BB with T , T .
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP3 raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero calls $2, MP1 calls $2.
Flop: ($9.50) 4, 6, J (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks.
Turn: ($9.50) 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $4, MP3 folds, Hero calls $4.
River: ($17.50) T (2 players)
Hero bets $11, MP1 raises to $42, Hero ?
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
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I never 3-bet a guy with these stats pre.
Flop/turn is standard. Nice river bet size, you don't have a good enough read on this guy to fold so I call, this is random crap enough/ horrendously played AcA/ KcK. Expect to see Ak/aq made flushes a lot but not enough to stop me calling.
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AHiltz
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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When you call the turn, what are you expecting to do on the river? I mean you've hit your set. How much more do you want? So, once you call the turn and lead the river, you have to make that call.
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HybridTt
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 37
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Don't think he is raising 2 pair on the river and if he does have a set its a smaller part of his range than a flush.. If you 3bet his range is still flushes and sets and i think your beat more often than not(66,44,33 vs any Club club hand + JJ.)... I don't think that he bluffs this river often after you lead. So ok on the turn when we called we had a idea/plan of his range... i think he had a big club/pair, flush or set. flush and flushdraw/pair being a biggest part of his range. So on the river if we lead into him he will fold his flushdraw/ pairs or maybe call, most donks aren't going to re raise when they have showdown value. Now if he has a big flush card he may bluff but most likely fold to a raise. If he has a flush he raises and a set he could raise... So why are we betting most hands we are beat by raise and a few hands we could beat maybe call if he sucks hard??? i think a C/C on the river is best because it opens up his value betting range, lets him bluff(if we lead he wont bluff) missed flush draws, and protects us from value towning ourselves.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
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Just noticed the stats you gave are for MP1 and MP3 was the preflop aggressor so I 3bet sometimes depending on stats, readless I call.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
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mp3 is 20/4.4/0 over 45 hands. Do you still 3 bet here preflop often against tthese two?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Just noticed the stats you gave are for MP1 and MP3 was the preflop aggressor so I 3bet sometimes depending on stats, readless I call.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
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i never expected a passive guy to bluff me on this river.
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Originally Posted by HybridTt
i think a C/C on the river is best because it opens up his value betting range, lets him bluff(if we lead he wont bluff) missed flush draws, and protects us from value towning ourselves.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
mp3 is 20/4.4/0 over 45 hands. Do you still 3 bet here preflop often against tthese two?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Just noticed the stats you gave are for MP1 and MP3 was the preflop aggressor so I 3bet sometimes depending on stats, readless I call.
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No.
Hybrid I like your analysis as it gets missed FDs to bet into us and we avoid horrible situations such as this. I think almost all of the hands villain a bet with will bet + some bluffs so c/c seems better.
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HybridTt
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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bye
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
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i like to check anything but sets on the river. Actually, i wasnt really sure whether he would bet or check behind on this flushy board. When in doubt, i bet and extract more value from top pair, two pairs or worse stuff 
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HybridTt
K first of all, in 9 max a 25/5 who is 1.6AF is not passive because, his range is 2x bigger than our range so if he were to have the same AF as us he would be betting A LOT more marginal hands... Like think of a 1/1 who only plays AA, his AF would be infinite every time... why? because he always has a big hand... conversely a c/cing station preflop will have a lower AF in relation to how aggressive they really are... a 1.6af 25/5 is very very capable of bluffing, thats like a 3-4Af 12/9... Also keep in mind if u believe he bluffs 0% when you c/c whats his % to bluff if you bet into him... prob 0%? And when u bet and he bets for value do u beat his range more often than pot odds dictate? no, because flushes is the biggest part of his range...easy bet/fold more optimal Check/Call
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HybridTt
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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bye
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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3bet pre.
Flop is horrible and i hate being blown off my hand so i probably weakly check and bet turn and river.
I hate everything about this hand but feel my 6max game is talking as TT is like teh nuts in 6max...
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elipsesjeff
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anyone think check/raise turn > check/call?
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pokerfan
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in general, i dont like to 3 bet with TT here this deep given their stack size and their low pfr stats.
yeah, this is a no-brainer 3 bet squeeze in 6-max games. We flat call their raise, play postflop poker and could extract more money on lots of dry board IMO.
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pokerfan
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we have showdown value and c/r turned our hand into bluffing immediately, so i dont really like it at all.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
anyone think check/raise turn > check/call?
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badgers
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
anyone think check/raise turn > check/call?
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Why would you turn a decent made hand with a decent draw into a bluff?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
mp3 is 20/4.4/0 over 45 hands.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
3bet pre.
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No.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
anyone think check/raise turn > check/call?
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Why would you turn a decent made hand with a decent draw into a bluff?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
mp3 is 20/4.4/0 over 45 hands.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
3bet pre.
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No. |
his opening raise is to $3. You not think this is a semi-tell...?
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
anyone think check/raise turn > check/call?
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Why would you turn a decent made hand with a decent draw into a bluff?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
mp3 is 20/4.4/0 over 45 hands.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
3bet pre.
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No. |
his opening raise is to $3. You not think this is a semi-tell...? |
Not especially and by three-betting OOP you are putting yourself in a horrible reverse implied odds situation because the nits love to flat-call with AA/KK in position. I would rather take the generous odds given to set-mine.
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elipsesjeff
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
anyone think check/raise turn > check/call?
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Why would you turn a decent made hand with a decent draw into a bluff? |
could be for value too. The only thing is we have no idea if either our pair or FD is good and we're getting little value on river OOP the way it is played.
We also wouldn't mind to just take the pot down.
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