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Keilah
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04-21-2008, 09:11 PM
Post subject: 100NL - TT overpair in position vs aggressor
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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These spots are always tough for me. I took the turn minraise straight from Miffed2201 and it worked to let me see the showdown for free. NH?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
UTG ($100)
MP1 ($100)
Hero ($98.80)
CO ($103.75)
Button ($15.50)
SB ($52.05)
BB ($190.50)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with  ,  .
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, BB raises to $9, Hero calls $5.
Flop: ($18.50)  ,  ,  (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.
Turn: ($34.50)  (2 players)
BB bets $12, Hero raises to $24, BB calls $12.
River: ($82.50)  (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.
Final Pot: $82.50
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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villain looks like they have either a bigger over pair or ace high. pushing might be best
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
villain looks like they have either a bigger over pair or ace high. pushing might be best
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I don't follow the logic of this post.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
villain looks like they have either a bigger over pair or ace high. pushing might be best
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I don't follow the logic of this post. |
yeah wtf no sense
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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In these spots I usually just call down because there is nothing else you can do. If he fires small on any river I would call. If he bets big on a diamond river I'd call, otherwise I'd fold.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,807
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nh, other option is call turn
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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I think all three options can be used on the turn call/fold/raise.
If i call turn then i dont expect my opponent to fire on river without the goods, he's simply not good enough IMO.
If i raise the turn i get to showdown without it costing, but if opp calls turn he maybe has a fd and overs or a big pair, so we are probably beat.
Obviously you can shove the river and hope he cant make a read and call which is a decent play but meh we dont have to be that fancy.
Folding also isnt horrible but not my favourite option as your opponent is likely tight and not firing the turn without a hand or biggish draw.
I think this lets you show down for chap whether or not you are beat, it also lets you set up some river plays versus weak players
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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raise flop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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kingnat
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
raise flop
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I was going to suggest this. Shouldn't we be reraising flop to define villian's range when it is cheapest.
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So you click their picture and then you get their money?
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sweetlemon69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 296
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I'd either reraise flop or go into pot size control mode and call the turn. Can't say an aggressor wouldn't bet every street on a fd, and if he makes a hpsb or psb on the riv, that's a tough call. any other reads? lose? tight?
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Raising the flop or playing it the way you did are the best options, and I think they are very close. What is the read on villian? Because of the possible flush draw, raising the flop may be slightly better.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ltrain
Raising the flop or playing it the way you did are the best options, and I think they are very close. What is the read on villian? Because of the possible flush draw, raising the flop may be slightly better.
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I agree 100%. I've been seeing a minraise 3-bet a lot lately, with holdings regularly varying from ATo to AA.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
raise flop
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least money won when ahead, most money lost when behind.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
raise flop
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least money won when ahead, most money lost when behind. |
Please explain; I don't agree with this (outside of a limit context) on the flop. Right now, both villian and our actions are standard opening lines with wide ranges. Raising on the flop saves us money by forcing hands to fold that will draw out on us and there are A,K,Q,J, diamond scare cards we don't want to see (A,Ko is a drawing hand here). Also, we have fold equity while the pot is still low and we save money by not calling down hands that crush us. If called on the flop we can still see a showdown by checking the turn if a scare card hits or if villian is read to checkraise us with air. What do you do if a A,K,Q,J, or diamond hits the turn and river? Still calldown? Don't we lose more if we are bluffed out of the pot?
A situation where we win the most and lose the least by checking is the following (Concept from King Yao-Weighing the Odds)
Villian: assume he is very aggro and will bet if checked to
Us: 10,10
Same preflop, vilian c-bets, we raise flop, villian calls, turn is an ace. At this point, we are either still ahead or behind, but if we bet again on the turn, villian could checkraise us and we would fold. Also, if we bet again, he folds unless he has us beat. By checking, we either induce a bluff on the river (we win), he checks we check (we will see), he bets lower as a value bet not knowing if we call (we lose less), or he goes all in and we fold (least likely but possible). In this fact pattern, we win the most and lose the least by checking the turn, calling the river as the standard line. An added bonus for no limit is we control the pot as well.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
raise flop
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least money won when ahead, most money lost when behind. |
- Too many turncards that ruin either our hand or our action
- Majority of weaker hands we win money against are 9+ outer, most likely we´re up against Fd + overs. Charge them now.
- Calling leaves us blind without a clue where we at. A raise on flop doesnt cost more than a call on a blank turn. In case we call a brick on turn we may still be forced to call a blank river as well and let him set the price to draw out on us.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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does anyone miss you can shove the turn if a danger card comes and opp has to fold tp nearly always if he caught it?
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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I´d agree with you if it were a rainbow flop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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jimmy44
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
Posts: 1,391
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
raise flop
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least money won when ahead, most money lost when behind. |
- Too many turncards that ruin either our hand or our action
- Majority of weaker hands we win money against are 9+ outer, most likely we´re up against Fd + overs. Charge them now.
- Calling leaves us blind without a clue where we at. A raise on flop doesnt cost more than a call on a blank turn. In case we call a brick on turn we may still be forced to call a blank river as well and let him set the price to draw out on us. |
What range can we give villain on flop?
- TT+
- 98s-JTs (no 2 dimaonds)
- 66-77
- 2 diamonds (either Axdd, KQdd or a good combo of FD + gutshot)
- Ax (no 2 diamonds)
- Maybe adding hands like QT, KJ.
If we raise flop what hands would he fold? only hands like 66-77 or maybe Axdd (where x < 3) and KJ.
However, a lot of his range he would either call or push.
Without any reads, villain has $190 so most likely he is aggressive and with a lot of combos he would 4bet/push that flop or call with better.
I prefer Deanglow line. I think our only option here is call 1/2-1/3 down to river.
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freechus9
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: IN UR BOX HAXXING UR FILEZ
Posts: 1,000
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how does our line change if he makes a PSB/ 2/3 pot bet on the flop instead? Im assuming call and fold to further agression
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My sig is too much for you to handle.
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Seabass
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: trying not to die
Posts: 205
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How I play here depends on my read on the villain, without any info I think you played it fine.
Raising the flop might very well be the best option if we had some info, but without it's not something I would recommend.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I don't think he likes his hand much given the size of his turn bet. Min-raising for a showdown might be a worse line than floating a river to turn our hand into a bluff or just trying to take it away on the turn.
It depends on how and what kind of bad I think he is. Some guys are always weak on this turn but it doesn't matter because you can't take it away.
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