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Keilah
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06-15-2008, 09:39 PM
Post subject: 100NL - QQ overpair in 3bet pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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Villain was BottomSet, who I don't have many hands on but I know is a 2p2er.
Love it/hate it?
I'm still in session but if I assume his 3bet range is aq+,qq+, and his stackoff range is qq+,AK, is it better to just shove pre?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
BB ($124.80)
UTG ($105.60)
UTG+1 ($102.20)
Hero ($124.65)
MP2 ($100)
CO ($98.50)
Button ($100)
SB ($82.85)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q , Q .
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, MP2 calls $4, CO calls $4, Button raises to $23, 2 folds, Hero calls $19, MP2 folds, CO folds.
Flop: ($55.50) 9 , 3, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $29, Hero raises to $101.65
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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i hate these sort of spots and often get stacked by aa and kk. Against a known 2+2er i dont know whether this makes this more of a fold or not, as he cud be trying to get all the dead money or he cud jus be playing super solid only 3 betting with a tight 3 bet range...Though agreed, i think ak,aq, jj and very occasionaly air is in his range often enough to make this +ev to shove. And i think its probably better to just 4 bet preflop as your gonna be forced to fold on any k or ace high flop if you just flat and your gonna get stacked regardless if a low flop comes if he has aces or kings.
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Keilah
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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yes but this way I make $$ off his AK/AQ/JJ
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I used to fold a lot in this spot preflop... because the 3bet is very large. If I'm going to call, then I'm looking to get it all in on the flop without an A or K... as you did.
I find that when I lose a stack with QQ, it's always in situations like this - where I have 2 outs preflop. I've played a lot with bottomset and tend to give more respect than QQ in this spot... I think against an unknown I'm playing this hand the same way,
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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pf is tougher than flop. flop is insta call, he can have AK
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Keilah
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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instacall or instashove?
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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oh shit i thought he c/rd you.
eh im still never folding QQ here vs him. way you played is probably best. only problem is he knows he shouldnt bet AK here. i do like your line with AK tho, not necessarily vs him tho. hes really good, and aint betting when he shouldn't and aint folding equity hands.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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his fullring vids on DC are probably the best on the web
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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actually i wont be surprised if this hand will be in a video. either that or he's trying something new out at .5/1. he'd do that at 1/2 tho prolly
unless its actually BottomSet and not bottomset. never seen a BottomSet before, and that aint the real bottomset. figure you just typod
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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This hand is well played if you think he's going to bet the flop with his entire range. If he shows you a better hand, then good for him and I hope you suck out and get called a stupid donk calling station.
I think he will squeeze here often enough that QQ is plenty enough of a hand to play with him.
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Keilah
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
unless its actually BottomSet and not bottomset. never seen a BottomSet before, and that aint the real bottomset. figure you just typod
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I didn't know Stars differentiated according to capitalization. I'm pretty sure it was him judging by conversation.
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Keilah
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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So on to a slightly different question... First comes a spoiler.
He held AKo and called my flop all-in.
Thoughts on his play?
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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calling your c/r shove is correct if he put you exactly on TT-QQ. However, i wouldnt c-bet small on this flop knowing that you have a solid TA image. Actually, either c/f or a shove on this flop is way better than $29 flop bet on his part IMO.
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Seabass
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: trying not to die
Posts: 205
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It's a big 3b preflop and if I call, given this flop, I play it the same. I'm not calling preflop only to fold here.
Given the remaining stack sizes I like a crai here.
As for his play preflop it's a standard 3b even tho I wouldn't have made it so big. The problem for him on the flop is that he doesn't have much info on you. It's hard to comment without knowing his read on you and his thoughts behind the play.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
calling your c/r shove is correct if he put you exactly on TT-QQ.
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392,040 games 0.005 secs 78,408,000 games/sec
Board: 9h 9d 3s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.156% 58.62% 13.54% 229806 53073.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 27.844% 14.31% 13.54% 56088 53073.00 { AKo }
Color me surprised, I would fold AK so fast...
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
calling your c/r shove is correct if he put you exactly on TT-QQ.
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392,040 games 0.005 secs 78,408,000 games/sec
Board: 9h 9d 3s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.156% 58.62% 13.54% 229806 53073.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 27.844% 14.31% 13.54% 56088 53073.00 { AKo }
Color me surprised, I would fold AK so fast... |
me too. Unless I have screwed up the math he isn't getting the right price to call here. Pokerfan?
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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i think you played it perfectly and his call is at best marginal unless your image is awful.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Are u guys serious?? Button only need to put $48 to win whopping $162 total. Given preflop's actions, i wouldnt really think hero has KK+. So BottomSet has correct odds to call a c/r shove after putting so much in the pot. Folding AK here i think is a mistake IMO.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
calling your c/r shove is correct if he put you exactly on TT-QQ.
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392,040 games 0.005 secs 78,408,000 games/sec
Board: 9h 9d 3s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.156% 58.62% 13.54% 229806 53073.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 27.844% 14.31% 13.54% 56088 53073.00 { AKo }
Color me surprised, I would fold AK so fast... |
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
Are u guys serious?? Button only need to put $48 to win whopping $162 total. Given preflop's actions, i wouldnt really think hero has KK+. So BottomSet has correct odds to call a c/r shove after putting so much in the pot. Folding AK here i think is a mistake IMO.
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sorry you're right i didn't notice stack sizes.
I should have known better than to doubt bottomset.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Keilah
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
Posts: 658
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See thing is I'd have played KK the same way.
Then again I could also do the same with AK (but less likely).
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
sorry you're right i didn't notice stack sizes.
I should have known better than to doubt bottomset.
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ditto - just noticed the bet size and not what he had behind to call with.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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weird i typed up a real nice post here last night, but it aint here now. hmmm
anyways, psr is too big for either to fold flop, and i dont like his pf 3bet size (should be smaller), and it may be that i dont like him not flatting AK and you continuing with QQ. im not sure about that tho.
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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I think shoving preflop might be better. We are out of position and 1/3+ of flops are hard to play.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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shoving is def better than calling, and its fine vs bottomset since he wont fold AK. but in general getting QQ in pf from MP isn't a good idea.
calling isn't good because youre pot stuck once you call, but he isn't if he stupidly squeezed huge with crap. i like exploring the avenue of folding pf. no wai bottomset thinks its a good idea to squeeze like this with JJ AQ, and possibly he knows that QQ AK isn't the best squeeze either since it must stack off yet they dont really want to vs an MP opener.
things change if he squeezed to the correct amount tho
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