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100NL, i had no idea why a 2p2er made donk lead twice.

  
 
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pokerfan
Old 06-17-2009, 07:22 PM     Post subject: 100NL, i had no idea why a 2p2er made donk lead twice. #1 (permalink)  
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My opponent is 1p0kerboy, a decent 2p2er( 10k posts ) 100NL regular. His stats is 13/9/3 over 4k hands with 3% 3bet%. His small flop & turn donk bets really sound to me like 66-JJ. Did he really trap me with a monster? Can i fight back with bigger aggression on the turn? The counter-attack to this strategy is DB ATTACKING?
No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($106.35)
BB ($103.30)
UTG ($95.50)
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Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 10
6 folds, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

Flop: ($6.50) 2, 8, 8 (2 players)
BB bets $5, Hero raises $15.50, BB calls $10.50

Turn: ($37.50) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $17, Hero ?
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Micro2Macro
Old 06-17-2009, 07:34 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I just fold. There's no way you're going to get him to by the looks of things.
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oskar
Old 06-17-2009, 08:19 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I like to take this line sometimes against aggro opponents, but I would usually 3b the flop... The reason being that facing a polarized 3b is way way gayer than a polarized raise because you don't have much room to maneuver and any decision you make is for stacks at that point, and you can just lean back and watch the show without having to risk too much.

When he donk/calls I think it's kind of a pot control line, or he's just trying to induce.
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badgers
Old 06-17-2009, 08:22 PM     Post subject: Re: 100NL, i had no idea why a 2p2er made donk lead twice. #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
1p0kerboy, a decent 2p2er( 10k posts )
in before the renton lols

1p0kerboy is a fucking nit. once he calls your raise of his donk ( which is most likely bad, flop is probably a fold) and then bets again there is nothing in his range folding. easiest fold ever.
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:43 PM #5 (permalink)  
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yeah man hugest nit ever, i fold anything below jj to his donk
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Renton
Old 06-17-2009, 10:05 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 fold, fold flop
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Old 06-17-2009, 10:33 PM #7 (permalink)  
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oskar I have no idea why you would donk to induce a raise and then 3bet for value with any hand on this sort of board. I also don't really understand your logic of doing it as a bluff. Unless you are 3betting very big it is still possible to call a 3bet in position here a lot without committing our entire stack with the assumption that you are going to give up sometimes, since you know that we would also flat the 3bet with monsters (also the button's range is ahead of any regs BB range since it is possible for button to have a lot of 8s, 22 etc. while the BB can't really have a lot (except when it's 1p0kerboy and he's donking as he most likely has the nuts))
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oskar
Old 06-18-2009, 12:10 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 it's btn vs blind... You have like a 45% range, he probably has something like 10%call 13% 3-bet or whatever. There are no draws what so ever. You have a pair or better ~20% of the time, he probably even less depending on 3b%, and you are c-betting this flop with your entire range.
When you're getting donked into it's pretty much the same as a c-bet. You don't give him much credit for anything.

If he checks it's going to go: c-bet/raise a lot, and then the button has the option to either float or 3-bet or whatever. If he donks, he takes those away from you. You cannot float air with a psb left, and then do what? You cannot always just ship it for 100bb. What I'm saying is by donking you can make a way more effective bluff and just in general frustrate the crap out of your opponent in these spots.
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:12 AM #9 (permalink)  
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when this guy donks, you give him credit for quads
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oskar
Old 06-18-2009, 09:19 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 ok, lol.
EZ game then.
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Old 06-18-2009, 10:17 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
it's btn vs blind... You have like a 45% range, he probably has something like 10%call 13% 3-bet or whatever. There are no draws what so ever. You have a pair or better ~20% of the time, he probably even less depending on 3b%, and you are c-betting this flop with your entire range.
When you're getting donked into it's pretty much the same as a c-bet. You don't give him much credit for anything.

If he checks it's going to go: c-bet/raise a lot, and then the button has the option to either float or 3-bet or whatever. If he donks, he takes those away from you. You cannot float air with a psb left, and then do what? You cannot always just ship it for 100bb. What I'm saying is by donking you can make a way more effective bluff and just in general frustrate the crap out of your opponent in these spots.
I disagree a lot.

BB checks it is not with the intention of c/ring very often. A typical defending range from a nit like this is weighted heavily towards midpairs and hands like AQ/AJ/KQ, basically hands that can't fold and the nit is too boring to 3bet.

All of these hands have showdown value apart from KQ. It is extremely difficult to c/r anything for value on this board, since we are essentially repping 88/badly played 22 and then perhaps A8s/98s/T8s if 1p0kerboii has opened up his game a little since I last played him which I doubt.

Therefore as you rightly say, donking becomes a more credible move, since we have a lot of marginal strength hands in our range and also some bluffs which have decent equity. The problem (or occasionally great thing) about donking is that it frequently induces spazz attacks as shown by pokerfan's play here with their entire range. This is very opponent dependant, some players will raise the flop with their entire range and we should only donk for value. Others fold religiously to donks yet give c/rs on dry board little credit.

If we choose to donk, we are by no means removing the float from the button's arsenal. If you are donking a lot with air, one of the easiest ways to counter this is to float the flop bet. If you are talking about people floating a flop 3bet, yes that is pretty tough to do, but once you 3bet the flop are you going to be shoving the turn when called? The button could possibly call the flop 3bet with somethingg like JJ+, and then any 8+ (but there are LOADS of 8s in the button's range - A8,K8,J8,T8,98,78,68s,58s etc.etc. and also 22 is in the button's range more frequently than the BB). Basically if you 3bet this flop as a bluff you are never following through on the turn with this knowledge, and if the button knows this he can reach showdown easily with JJ+ and even wider since he can check behind his entire massively strong range on the turn to either induce a river bluff shove or reach showdown with marginal hands.
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badgers
Old 06-18-2009, 11:45 AM #12 (permalink)  
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also more importantly if you think villain is going to be raising your donks enough that donk/3bet is a good bluff line then why are you donking as a bluff in the first place??
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pokerfan
Old 06-18-2009, 01:17 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Yeti theorem does still hold merit however against some ABC TAG.
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