100NL, 99 in some marginal situation

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by Warpe

This is such an obvious flop raise I don't know why it's being debated.

We raise to:

Pick off a c-bet. Missed overs are a big part of his range so we'll get a fold a lot.

Protect our hand. There are lots of turn cards we don't want villain to see and what villain voluntarily puts in the pot with his lead is NOT prepayment for us charging him to draw. If he wants to continue with overcards we make him pay MORE to do so.

Information. We raise/he folds/OHIG. We raise/he calls/he reraises/good chance we're smoked so we act accordingly.

As played, we've pissed away all initiative and our position advantage with what stood a very good chance of being the best hand on the flop.

you are allowing our opponent to play his hand perfectly if you do this. hence calling is better.

miffed, this is pretty much my whole argument, but apparently the both of us are in the vast minority.

i think the thing that might be the big difference in this hand compared to others where only a worse hand calls a raise is the fact that in other hands you are usually looking to catch a bluff on a later street to extract the most value possible from a worse hand. in this hand i don't think we can call any reasonable sized bet on the turn or the river so we will never ever make any more money from a bluff cuz we aren't going to call villain's bluff. what do ya think?

my immediate thought is that if you raise the flop, AK/AQ folds, eg anything we beat folds. Anything beating us calls AA/KK/QQ etc
then we either get c/r'ed all in on turn and cry or we check behind and call a river bet where few players are bluffing a worse hand.
Also, i dont think anyone would play 88/22 fast on this board as our opponent needs to be given rope to hand himself.

At the very least if you call the turn you can shove the turn/river and probably push opponent off AK/AQ anyway or play the nuts that way and get an insta-call.

one other thing i realized is that if we raise the flop, it is the most expensive way to find out if we are beat while if we are ahead it will cost about the same or slightly less to raise as it would to call and bet the turn.

also, if we call and bet any turn that is checked to us we may actually be able to fold out something like TT when an overcard comes on the turn.

okay so you pick up the possibility to fold out a slightly better hand like tens or push him off the overs on the flop and not get into folding the turn to agression assuming each play is about the same money, which do you think is more likely for him to have in these spots should determine your play i guess, but i still vote for reraising on the flop as you still may get a fold out of 1010

Here is another thing to think about regarding raising the flop (which, btw goes against my initial thought of raising).

If villian is a thinking player would raising the flop define our hand to the point where he knows exactly how to exploit us on a later street and get us off of our mid pp?

In other words, what hands would we flat call pre-flop then c/r on the flop with? 9's, T's, J's, Possibly 7's, and 6's, or total air trying to pick off a C-bet, are IMO about the only three hands that would reasonably take this line.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by pgil

I like to see him raise from a steal position a couple of times before 3betting light. More importantly is how does he react to 3bets? if he is calling to hit a flop, or folding, then be more inclined to do it. If he is capable of CRing on a bluff, then be less likely to 3bet light.

23% is not a particularly high att to steal, so I wouldn't necessarily be licking my lips every time he opens from LP, but I would definitely be 3betting a couple of times in a standard session.

Also keep in mind that postflop tendencies can sway you from a light preflop 3bet to a float flop/raise cbet line given that you have position.

But given we have position on our opponent it turns 99 into as strong as a hand as JJ, except it's easier for us to get away from postflop facing aggression on an all undercard board. Most people, even with a hand as strong as JJ or AK when they're 3bet, freeze in their boots because they don't know how to play OOP in 3 bet pots. With a semi-tight image you'll either make them make a bad fold or call your 3 bet and give up on most flops.

Also, most people don't check/raise bluff in reraised pots. Especially at 100 NL.

I think you have a really good point Gator. But villain does not have much history on us, so at this point we might be a fish that thinks TT-JJ or even a low PP is the nuts here. No one wants to go broke trying to push a donk off 55 here. Once we have established some history against a good, aggressive player we may be in real trouble here. But I think this is okay - if he makes the proper adjustment, we can counteradjust by raising the flop, checking behind on the turn, and snapping up the river bluff with some medium strong hands.

By the way, I think A2s plays out exactly like this, but I play this specifically because my opponent won't give me credit for it so its not going to help my 9's.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by pgil

I like to see him raise from a steal position a couple of times before 3betting light. More importantly is how does he react to 3bets? if he is calling to hit a flop, or folding, then be more inclined to do it. If he is capable of CRing on a bluff, then be less likely to 3bet light.

23% is not a particularly high att to steal, so I wouldn't necessarily be licking my lips every time he opens from LP, but I would definitely be 3betting a couple of times in a standard session.

Also keep in mind that postflop tendencies can sway you from a light preflop 3bet to a float flop/raise cbet line given that you have position.

But given we have position on our opponent it turns 99 into as strong as a hand as JJ, except it's easier for us to get away from postflop facing aggression on an all undercard board. Most people, even with a hand as strong as JJ or AK when they're 3bet, freeze in their boots because they don't know how to play OOP in 3 bet pots. With a semi-tight image you'll either make them make a bad fold or call your 3 bet and give up on most flops.

Also, most people don't check/raise bluff in reraised pots. Especially at 100 NL.

It is true that 3bets scare the bejeezus out of people in FR. But that may be reason to not 3bet JJ when we have position on a straightforward player. Why put a strong PP into a spot where you aren't getting a lot of action postflop unless it's a cooler situation. 88/99 are different because you are most likely in a coinflip type of situation and they can be a lot harder to play postflop without initiative, even in position.

I would be more inclined to 3bet JT/KQ as opposed to JJ vs. a habitual LP stealer. Against the right opponents it can be more profitable to flat call pairs as low as 88/99 in position, especially if the blinds are tight. Why force your opponent to fold his weaker than average hand preflop when you can take it away or value bet as the situation warrants on a lot of flops?

I CR bluff in reraised pots at 100NL on occasion, and boy is it fun.

i dont think 100NL thinking players are good enough to exploit us in later streets with worse hands after our flop raise. In your case, i rarely c/r with these pairs and either lead out or c/c on this flop.
i'm under the impression that playing well in marginal situations is the best explanation of the difference between good and most mediocre players, IMO.

Originally Posted by GatorJH

Here is another thing to think about regarding raising the flop (which, btw goes against my initial thought of raising).

If villian is a thinking player would raising the flop define our hand to the point where he knows exactly how to exploit us on a later street and get us off of our mid pp?

In other words, what hands would we flat call pre-flop then c/r on the flop with? 9's, T's, J's, Possibly 7's, and 6's, or total air trying to pick off a C-bet, are IMO about the only three hands that would reasonably take this line.

Thoughts?

i rarely 3 bet with 99-TT in position. However, i 3 bet with JJ vs LP opener the majority of the time, which might be a leak on my part.

Originally Posted by pgil

I would be more inclined to 3bet JT/KQ as opposed to JJ vs. a habitual LP stealer.

After hearing you guys thoughts, i'm more inclined to fold small pairs(33-66) , raise with medium pairs(77-TT) and flat call down with JJ+ Vs standard unknowns on this specific flop. Of course, we could try float/bluff line with small pairs and blow villains off in later streets occasionally.

Originally Posted by pokerfan

After hearing you guys thoughts, i'm more inclined to fold small pairs(33-66) , raise with medium pairs(77-TT) and flat call down with JJ+ Vs standard unknowns in this hand. Of course, we could try float/bluff line with small pairs and blow villains off in later streets occasionally.

Funny, but I am almost inclined to 3bet a wider range pf with position. If any flopped ace is scaring villian into a missed fold as many suggest as the standard play, I am going to own him until he adjusts (if he adjusts). If he tightens with the goal of trapping me later, he will just leave me with more hands vs. the fishies.

i'm talking about flop play on this specific board with various pockets holdings.

Originally Posted by Ltrain

Originally Posted by pokerfan

After hearing you guys thoughts, i'm more inclined to fold small pairs(33-66) , raise with medium pairs(77-TT) and flat call down with JJ+ Vs standard unknowns in this hand. Of course, we could try float/bluff line with small pairs and blow villains off in later streets occasionally.

Funny, but I am almost inclined to 3bet a wider range pf with position. If any flopped ace is scaring villian into a missed fold as many suggest as the standard play, I am going to own him until he adjusts (if he adjusts). If he tightens with the goal of trapping me later, he will just leave me with more hands vs. the fishies.

Originally Posted by Ltrain

Originally Posted by pokerfan

After hearing you guys thoughts, i'm more inclined to fold small pairs(33-66) , raise with medium pairs(77-TT) and flat call down with JJ+ Vs standard unknowns in this hand. Of course, we could try float/bluff line with small pairs and blow villains off in later streets occasionally.

Funny, but I am almost inclined to 3bet a wider range pf with position. If any flopped ace is scaring villian into a missed fold as many suggest as the standard play, I am going to own him until he adjusts (if he adjusts). If he tightens with the goal of trapping me later, he will just leave me with more hands vs. the fishies.

This is what I was leaning more towards.

3betting JJ is for value. 3 betting 99 is for a different (but related) reason.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Ltrain

Originally Posted by pokerfan

After hearing you guys thoughts, i'm more inclined to fold small pairs(33-66) , raise with medium pairs(77-TT) and flat call down with JJ+ Vs standard unknowns in this hand. Of course, we could try float/bluff line with small pairs and blow villains off in later streets occasionally.

Funny, but I am almost inclined to 3bet a wider range pf with position. If any flopped ace is scaring villian into a missed fold as many suggest as the standard play, I am going to own him until he adjusts (if he adjusts). If he tightens with the goal of trapping me later, he will just leave me with more hands vs. the fishies.

This is what I was leaning more towards.

3betting JJ is for value. 3 betting 99 is for a different (but related) reason.

omg, fr players 3betting light. i thought that was for 6max players only!

standard play is usually to 3bet JJ for value, but my argument was that it mey be more profitable to flat call JJ vs certain opponents, for instance those who like to cbet/double barrel too much, or will take a weak TP too far so long as you don't give them too much reason to believe that their AT isn't good on a T high board. This becomes even more appealing if your opponent isn't good enough to make you fold the better hand all that often.

If your opponent is opening light, then automatically 3betting a big PP allows him off the hook too easily.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

3betting JJ is for value. 3 betting 99 is for a different (but related) reason.

omg, fr players 3betting light. i thought that was for 6max players only!

that's why owning FR nits is more fun

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

3betting JJ is for value. 3 betting 99 is for a different (but related) reason.

omg, fr players 3betting light. i thought that was for 6max players only!

that's why owning FR nits is more fun

yeah you can do it on 15 tables at once