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($100NL) Losing whole stack on second hand. Hard road to come back?

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Courage

04-28-2010, 03:28 AM Post subject: (Casino $100NL) Losing whole stack on second hand. Hard road to come back?

#1 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Apr 2010

Location: Up in the clouds

Posts: 4

In this topic, I'm going to recall 3 key hands at a 4 hour casino session that defined my first serious casino session. I'm wondering whether or not my plays are bad or is it just natural variance.

I've been playing poker for about 6-7 years, mostly in $20 home games and free university games and free online poker and I've read quite a few books. Dan Harrington's holdem workbooks, Phil Gordon's blue and green, and theory of poker by Sklansky are among my favourites (I won them as season champion at university poker society). I'm currently 21 years old and I got a $4000 bankroll dedicated to poker which I'm going to try to build up as a semi serious hobby. I am interested in your opinions about how my sessions went, and I hope this to be the first of many topics to come about casino sessions.

Casino table structure

- 9 players per table
- Minimum buy-in: $80, Maximum buy-in: $100
- SB/BB: $1-$2
- Rake: 10% per pot capped at $8
- Hourly Time Charge Fee: $5

Buy in: $100, -$5 -$2 = $93

HAND ONE:

Waited for BB, watched the table play about 6-7 hands. Identified the button in the next hand as a LAgg player who's played the last 4 out of 7 hands and won 3 of them. His stack is just under $180 (I think).

SB: (Me - K10 rainbow) - posted $1
BB: $2
Fold, Fold
3rd player behind me: Raise to $6
Call, Call, Call, Button Calls
Me($86): calls $5 more for value
BB: calls $4 for value
Pot: $42

Flop: K 3 6 rainbow

Me: check
Everyone: check behind

Turn: Q

Me($71): Bet $15
Everyone folds to button. Button raise to $30
Me($56): Calls $15 more - questionable play
Pot: $102

River: 8

Me($56): Check - questionable play.
Button: Bet $45
Me: (I'm thinking I can't call here, either fold or all in, I chose the latter - questionable play).

What do you guys think about this so far? Mistakes in not being able to put down top pair? Or is it simply because maximum buyin is too small for comfortable play?

RESULTS

Button: K 3 for two pairs wins the pot.
Me: Reload for $100 more and curse under my breath for losing $100 in only the second hand. Feeling really unsatisfied at myself at this moment. I'm thinking that I've made a few below average plays.

The most interesting thing about this hand IS NOT the play imo, but rather the psychological damage dealt in losing $100 in less than 3 minutes in only your second hand of play. How would you have dealed with it?

Hand Two

It was some agonizing and draining 2.5 hours playing whilst down, I've won a few pots by bluffing and a few more for having the nuts and unfortunately not having many takers, had my QQ hold up against 33 as he tried to move in on me and also having a fish call my QQ bets (again) and finally deciding to fold on turn. I also lost a few by folding a couple of bluff when running into legitimate hands. I'm now at about $190 to just below $200 in chips (my highest point was $245 before folding my bluff) and I'm probably second-third highest in chip stack on my table. (P.S. the button player in hand 1 gone broke with his massive stack, reloaded and gone broke again)

A few players have left, and I think we're on 6-7 players.

SB: $1
BB: $2
UTG: fold
UTG+1: calls $2
Me: AQ suited diamonds, raise to $10
LP: Calls $10
Button (had about $90 more or less in chips): Calls $10
SB: folds
BB: folds
UTG+1: folds.
Pot: (I didn't calculate at the time, I roughly estimated it to be around $30, but now at hindsight, the pot was $35)

Flop: Q 8 2 (rainbow again, 1 diamond)

Me(<$175): bet $15
LP: folds
Button(I'm guessing around $60-$70 left): calls $15

Pot: $65.

Turn: 9 clubs

Me: Bet $30
Button: All in
Me: Called

Hmmm? What's going on here? I think I'm priced in and had to call. I think there's no way I could have known about anything on the turn. Do I lead out to bet or check? I always tended to go aggressive and bet, checking imo is too passive and would lead to too many pots stolen off of you. Your thoughts?

RESULTS

Button: pocket 9s. I'm drawing dead.

River: some random non consequential card.

Now I'm back down to around $100ish and I'm feeling really sh*tty. Comments?

Hand Three

Another one hour have passed and I'm not gonna tell you which player I am. I am hoping that you'll analyse this hand as we go along.

New table of 9 players with big stacks amongst the players.

SB: $1
BB: $2
a few folds, a few calls (seriously, why just call $2?)

Mid Position TAgg player - call him X.
X has been playing tight for the last 10-15 hands, only played once in late position with a raise and folded BBs to aggressive late position raises. Chip Count: just below $90.

random person 1 behind X
random person 2 behind X

Button - Solid player - call him Y.
Y has been playing about a third of the hands in the last 10-15 hands. Has just won a big hand and lost a big hand from second best hand. Regardless, he has been LAgg compared to the other players on the table. Chip Count: around $350 and playing well.

Anyways,

X bets $10, random 1 folds, random 2 calls, Y raises to $25. X calls, random 2 folds.

Pot: around $70
X: stack around $70
Y: stack around $325.

Flop: K K 2

X: All in.
Y: After long contemplation, folds.

Comments? Predictions on what the players had, how they should have played? Analysis?

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Make up your mind before reading further.

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****SPOILERS RESULTS SPOILERS RESULTS SPOILERS RESULTS****

I am X. I took down the pot. Flipped over 78 suited diamonds for a stone cold bluff and to the amazement of everyone on the table. Y was saying that I'm very lucky because he was thinking of calling since my stack was so low.

I was representing AK or high pocket pair with a call of $15 more on top of the $10 preflop. My rationale was that Y either had a mid strength hand and is just playing the button and trying to be aggressive to push the other players out (kinda unlikely after seeing his reaction after flop) OR had something like a AQ or AJ or low pocket pairs.

If the former, he would have folded quicker since not only would he be afraid of the K, pairs, he would also be afraid of a high ace. Since he took so long, it led me to believe that he had a decent hand, i.e. scenario 2.

Therefore, he must have had something like AJ, AQ, A10, 77, 88, 99, 10 10. He would have reasoned that it is possible that I may have had a K and chose not to slow play it due to so much money on the table OR that I may have had a QQ or JJ and chose to put it all on the line, which would have beaten his AJ or AQ or lower pocket pairs anyways.

My chip stack is too low in comparison to the pot, therefore if I wanted to win this hand, I must bluff at it now showing strength. Any lesser bet - such as half the pot, would have had more probability in inducing a call if the opponent had a decent hand, which would leave the other player trapped to call any subsequent bets. If I run into a K, I lose.

Anyways, what are your thoughts?

P.S. I left the table after that because I was quite worn out, just before another time charge. I had $140, making this a losing session of -$60.

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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

04-28-2010, 04:44 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2007

Posts: 833

L_Clan_Sup3rMaN is on a distinguished road

Quote:

Originally Posted by Courage

I've been playing poker for about 6-7 years, mostly in $20 home games and free university games and free online poker and I've read quite a few books. Dan Harrington's holdem workbooks, Phil Gordon's blue and green, and theory of poker by Sklansky are among my favourites (I won them as season champion at university poker society). I'm currently 21 years old and I got a $4000 bankroll dedicated to poker which I'm going to try to build up as a semi serious hobby. I am interested in your opinions about how my sessions went, and I hope this to be the first of many topics to come about casino sessions.

Casino table structure

- 9 players per table
- Minimum buy-in: $80, Maximum buy-in: $100
- SB/BB: $1-$2
- Rake: 10% per pot capped at $8
- Hourly Time Charge Fee: $5

I stopped reading right there. After all your years of experience, I have no idea how you could sit down at a game like this and think it is profitable. In case your not sure what I am talking about, a 50BB max buyin game with 10% rake capped at $8 PLUS a $5 hourly is highway robbery.

Also, wrong forum.

Lastly, welcome to FTR. If you stick around, I'm sure you will acquire a poopie-load of poker knowledge.

Courage

04-28-2010, 05:07 AM

#3 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Apr 2010

Location: Up in the clouds

Posts: 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

Yes you're right. That's our local casino and it's packed most of the time.

I do feel like it's highway robbery. Unfortunately, I live in Sydney and Star City is the only real cash game poker place that offers stakes like this and higher. Unfortunately, the blind/buy in and hourly fee structure is really shit. My only alternative is poker dome, which has good sit n gos but I really wanna focus on cash games atm. Ughhh.

P.S. I was on this forum 3-4 years ago, but I haven't been on lately because I'm busy with uni work.

rpm

04-28-2010, 05:53 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2009

Location: learnin'

Posts: 2,041

think yourself lucky the max buyin isnt 40bb like at crown. those games are pretty much aimed at tourists/one-off gamblers i believe. who dont really realise how shortstacked they are forced to buy in, or how much effective rake is being taken. obviously they are soft games but i'd try and get rolled for $2/3, $2/4 or whatever the next highest available stake is at star city if you plan on taking this seriously. that is still 10% capped at 4bb+ timecharge. but the cap is reached more often so the effective rake isnt as bad. and you can buyin deeper.

Courage

04-28-2010, 06:38 AM

#5 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Apr 2010

Location: Up in the clouds

Posts: 4

The next level is $5/$5 blind or maybe $2/$5 blind. It's abit screwed.

So is anyone gonna analyze the hands?

surviva316

04-28-2010, 06:39 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

yeah snap muck playing at that table at all.

pretty sure tom dwan couldn't even turn a profit there even if he had 6 40/10's to his right and 3 phil helmuth's to his left, miright?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

rpm

04-28-2010, 08:48 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2009

Location: learnin'

Posts: 2,041

what surviva means is
hand 1
fold preflop and go home and play online (because you're not rolled for the next highest stakes you can play

hand 2
same as above
so on and so forth

caddie444

04-28-2010, 10:41 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: constantly UTG

Posts: 723

caddie444 will become famous soon enough

Fold pre casino obv

As played:

Hand 1: fold preflop, you can't play a hand like K-10 profitably from the sb this shallow due to crappy reverse implied odds and getting stacked by better happening too often when you do flop something. As played prob bet/fold flop with c/f being a close second and def fold turn now as this is never a bluff.

Hand 2: Bet flop harder and you should generally be bet/folding these boards vs passive opponents. So as played the turn looks like a bet/fold since you're likely crushed by his value range.

Hand 3: With player X open/calling a 3B from ep his range looks like a mid pair or AK AQ or something knowing live players. Needless to say this is a terrible error he should either be shipping pre if he thinks player Y is isolating or if he has equity vs player Y's 3B'ing range due to his horrible implied odds. When player X monkey donk shoves flop player Y should realize he never does this with a K or with a hand that doesn't shove pre-flop and play his hand accordingly.

Just noticed you were player X with 78dd so here are some comments:

You cannot represent a hand that is not consistent with your plreflop range unless you do flat monsters in this spot which you generally should not especially with your shallow stack. Flatting 78dd to his 3B is really bad, you are not going to have enough equity on most flops vs your opponents 3B'ing range, and your stack is not deep enough to merit the implied odds needed to make calling his 3B, and your OOP! When you shove the flop a perceptive opponent will know that based on your preflop action you rarely have a strong hand here, obv this guy was either bluffing or not perceptive, which is pretty typical of live players. Also you are analyzing his range of hands after you shoved! You need to be doing this before you decide which action is best and not after you act.

The tactic you implemented in this hand is a weird type of "stop'n'go" which is generally reserved for sit'n'go's though can be used by SS'ers in cash games. But you want to have SOME equity when pulling off this move and on this flop you are so dominated by his calling range it's likely not a good idea.

Hope that helps. Welcome back to the forum, it is clear you have a lot to learn but hang around here and I guarantee you will!

Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)

OhioRounder

04-28-2010, 11:08 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2010

Posts: 171

You'd be better off playing a couple tables of $50NL on Stars than this joke of a format.

Sorry, tldr; past the intro

badgers

04-28-2010, 11:30 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Spewing

Posts: 3,372

Ignoring structure...

1 - snapfold turn and you know this too :P

2 - much as i love to know how you're doing, reads on your opponent would be more helpful. Bet flop more. Seems like you're gonna get it in somewhere in this hand so it doesn't matter too much. well played.

3 - This is terrible sorry. You just can't go playmastering in this way with suited connectors 45 big blinds deep. Stack sizes are OK for a stop and go but unfortunately you have a terrible hand when you are this deep. He's not often folding a pair better than 88 imo.

3k post - Return of the blog!

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