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$100nl AK tptk vs turn minraise

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spoonitnow

11-04-2007, 12:02 AM Post subject: $100nl AK tptk vs turn minraise

#1 (permalink)

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($23.50)
UTG+1 ($110.95)
Hero ($142.70)
MP2 ($34.55)
MP3 ($62.60)
CO ($72.90)
Button ($61.65)
SB ($118.90)
BB ($110.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K

, A

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, Hero raises to $5, 6 folds, UTG+1 calls $4.

Flop: ($11.50) 4

, A

, Q

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $7, UTG+1 calls $7.

Turn: ($25.50) 2

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $16, UTG+1 raises to $32, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $57.50

In retrospect I probably should have checked the turn anyway. As played, this fold is standard vs unknown y/n/m?

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Deanglow

11-04-2007, 12:06 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Bet the turn every time please. Yeah fold this. You be needing some reads.

Miffed22001

11-04-2007, 12:07 AM

#3 (permalink)

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i like check flop bet turn bet river as flop is random.
Also opens up other lines we can take when we like the flop as much as opp probably does,which is not a lot with some of our range

spoonitnow

11-04-2007, 12:09 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i like check flop bet turn bet river as flop is random.
Also opens up other lines we can take when we like the flop as much as opp probably does,which is not a lot with some of our range

I've re-read the last half of this x3 and I still have no clue what you meant.

martindcx1e

11-04-2007, 01:25 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i like check flop bet turn bet river as flop is random.
Also opens up other lines we can take when we like the flop as much as opp probably does,which is not a lot with some of our range

I've re-read the last half of this x3 and I still have no clue what you meant.

same lol. i think this hand is played fine spoon.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Miffed22001

11-04-2007, 06:45 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i like check flop bet turn bet river as flop is random.
Also opens up other lines we can take when we like the flop as much as opp probably does,which is not a lot with some of our range

I've re-read the last half of this x3 and I still have no clue what you meant.

Chopper moaned about too many one liners at the moment so ill post my total thoughts.

In response to your thoughts, is this hand played well?
Answer: In a vacuum, yes. Ak obviously doesnt look any good.

However, lets look at the bigger picture. In the multiple times this type of hand will come up, how should we look to play the hand? Will we always have Ax tp or will we have a multitude of other hands and how do we get best value/make the most money versus our opponent and force him to make mistakes?

Well, in this position we will have 77+ ATs+ KJs SC's perhaps more hands or we should because we're isolating an ep limper (im assuming our position is a little better than it is here but w/e)
Then we need to know how we react to playing the hand postflop after we identify his range preflop.
Im putting opp on some weak crap that he wont raise, small pps, AT/AJ/KQo etc
So, if we bet flop when we raise with AK thats fine normally, utterly standard also. We then typically check turn and bet river for value. If we have KQ here its pretty much the same also, although we may fold to a river block from opp sometimes. 88 is much trickier probably an easy fold on river.
Now id hate folding 88 on river if we bet the flop, check behind and get donked into on river so how do we alleviate opp playing his hand perfectly? if he is some weakshit with 99, or has AJ/AT and we have 99 he is playing absoultly fine, so how can(is it even possible) to stop that?
IMO flop is blank so check: No draws or anything. Then if opp donks turn, which he will do if he feels Axx is scary to us or we just missed, and we react to this by hitting the RAISE button he is then put to a much more difficult decision. He'll definitly go eh WTF!? and we then force him into a decision that is non-standard and forces a potential mistake. Sure, if he has a set he'll 3bet or push over us or something making our hand easy to fold (few players can resist a 3bet here and not enough are good enough to call and let you bet the river and c/r etc) Also, in line with what we plan to do, raising a set would'nt be so bad anyhow on this turn because it lets us away really cheap. think about pot size
if however he has AJ/AT type hand how would you like being raised on this turn when your PFR'er checked behind on the flop? id hate it and opp cant really call and then attempt to call a big river bet (half pot would be fair sized, but obviously if we hand read good then full pot makes his calli super-ugly, and him bad because we rep a good hand(although most people think this line is bluffy(which is half the reason we're doing this) but also puts much implied threat on his stack with one pair OOP) also it means if we bluff raise the turn with 88 how does he know the difference.
Our opponents play a lot of hands automatically so the minute they get raised they're away. Thats more so when they are OOP. Whats the difference between a value raise on turn with AQ and a bluff raise with 88 here? Absolutly nothing, and he'll make mistakes because of it, by either 3 betting a better hand we always fold to, calling turn folding river to a second bet, showing down to much oop when we have him drawing to few outs, donking his hand strength to us OOP because he knows we check river behind if a scary card hits.
Id think he'll fold too much before adapting, because his hand cant take the pressure (if he ever does) and we win lots of small pots with implied threat in position with out whole range, no need to showdown so much
If we raise turn and get called it then makes river play easy:
1. if hes super strong he MUST bet the river oop to get value, makes your decision easy-peasy considering turn play. If we read he is calling becuase he likes his hand a bit AJ OOP for example we can still apply pressure on river with a large value bet, once we figure out how we're going to play the river then the difference between a second barrel with 88 and a value bet with AQ will be impossible to tell, meaning opp will again be forced to showdown for more money than he likes against a line he doesnt understand/believe (he's then making mistakes, folding too much/calling too much) As above, he calls to much marginal (yes! hes making a mistake, folds too much to our range that isnt always ahead of him, but cant force him to fold just because of action
Rarely will we get c/r'ed because fr players, as Renton notes, havent needed to get good in order to win in more tough games post-AIGEA(sp)
2. We check behind, because we like to showdown a marginal hand, know he isnt folding to our bet(because we read goot), river was scary. As noted above, he cant call turn with a FD, hit it and then c/r becuase we WILL check behind when that happens so hes forced to bet OOP.
Also, as noted if he calls to much then you know to bet river for value when you need and perhaps to bluff his blocking bet which lots of players will make after calling the turn raise with a hand they like but will not stack off with. If we raise turn and he calls with KQo OOP and we have 99, then he'll block river and us raising river now makes sense, it also stops his line being optimal all of a sudden because he folds too much (again, opps arent good enough to bet/3bet here)
Im guessing most of you have heard Lukie's comment about lots of players folding marginally(even lots) because they'd rather lose 4 40bbs pots than get stacked once. Lets get stacked, making a good play and watching our opp making a bad one on the river yeah?

So in short: did you play the hand good? Yes. Did you take the optimal line? No, not IMO or at least we need to consider more options considering the type of flop we got and out opponents likely hand range.

Now, as chopper asked, lets discuss.

BTW, we need to talk more poker on AIM because we suck

spoonitnow

11-04-2007, 12:46 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Jesus fucking chris ferguson that's longer than I expected to be reading first thing in the morning.

Fnord

11-04-2007, 12:53 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I'm only betting this turn into a known chump.

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$100nl AK tptk vs turn minraise

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