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Monty3038
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03-30-2009, 05:18 PM
Post subject: Would another Great Depression Be Better?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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I closed my political blog last year, so sorry but this is my only outlet any more:
Ok, so who is next?
Since his most holiness Obama has decided that to take government money (which shouldn't even be offered, if Obama is such a 'free market' person) you have to let them have authority over who runs the show... wow... funny how government isn't supposed to be running businesses but that sure sounds like it... and it isn't more sweeping... if you are going to do it, replace the management at every organization taking bailout money... all of the local goverments, farm co-ops taking grain subsidies, insurance and financial institutions... the list could be endless...
Thank goodness Ford decided to turn down the bailout money.
I swear, I think letting the country suffer through the closing of all of these businesses that suck at being in business might not be a bad thing. Who's for another great depression? Teach our kids some humility? Get back to basics?
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Ragnar4
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Full House
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Can't imagine a great depression being anywhere near better.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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sure, why not?
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
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my favorite thing by obama is the idea of dumping $500 million into the detroit public school system when they're already in a $200 million deficit, and $55m is unaccounted for, i.e. stolen. on top of that, i think like 30% of kids in detroit actually graduate from hs, and 5% of them are "ready for college", whatever that means.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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so the choice is obama or great depression?
i'll take obama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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cr4zybe4utifu1
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Moderator
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Obama's policies are leading us somewhere that isn't going to be good, even if it's not another full out great depression.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
my favorite thing by obama is the idea of dumping $500 million into the detroit public school system when they're already in a $200 million deficit, and $55m is unaccounted for, i.e. stolen. on top of that, i think like 30% of kids in detroit actually graduate from hs, and 5% of them are "ready for college", whatever that means.
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So wait, are you using sarcasm to suggest that we shouldn't put money into a system to increase the possible success rate of our education?
I'd be willing to argue, rather vociferously, that the detroit schools not having proper funding is top 2 in reasons kids aren't getting the education they deserve.
I mean I guess we could just not care about detroit and let them fend for themselves... to hell with a level playing field.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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I'm depressed. It's not fucking great at all.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
my favorite thing by obama is the idea of dumping $500 million into the detroit public school system when they're already in a $200 million deficit, and $55m is unaccounted for, i.e. stolen. on top of that, i think like 30% of kids in detroit actually graduate from hs, and 5% of them are "ready for college", whatever that means.
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So wait, are you using sarcasm to suggest that we shouldn't put money into a system to increase the possible success rate of our education?
I'd be willing to argue, rather vociferously, that the detroit schools not having proper funding is top 2 in reasons kids aren't getting the education they deserve.
I mean I guess we could just not care about detroit and let them fend for themselves... to hell with a level playing field. |
oh yes, dumping money is the answer to everything! you should be in congress. you seem to have the idea down pretty well.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
my favorite thing by obama is the idea of dumping $500 million into the detroit public school system when they're already in a $200 million deficit, and $55m is unaccounted for, i.e. stolen. on top of that, i think like 30% of kids in detroit actually graduate from hs, and 5% of them are "ready for college", whatever that means.
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So wait, are you using sarcasm to suggest that we shouldn't put money into a system to increase the possible success rate of our education?
I'd be willing to argue, rather vociferously, that the detroit schools not having proper funding is top 2 in reasons kids aren't getting the education they deserve.
I mean I guess we could just not care about detroit and let them fend for themselves... to hell with a level playing field. |
oh yes, dumping money is the answer to everything! you should be in congress. you seem to have the idea down pretty well. |
So we should punish the kids for the teachers/faculties missappropriation of money?
Let's instead chase down the teachers who stole the 200m, and beat them without mercy, but still give those children a chance to succeed.
Unless you support the idea that children should grow up to aspire to nothing more than pimping, prostitution, and drugs with occaisional success story that involves a kid somehow getting into middle management at a grocery store somewhere. Woo hoo.
Where would you rather we spent that 500m? A few machines of war? That's definitely superior to teaching our own children how to read, write, and arming them for our future. Perhaps you'd rather just not spend the money at all? What about the kids in Detroit that are getting a terrible education?
What's your proposal for helping these kids to graduate?
Because I'm only hearing you bitch about the expenditure of money, not producing an innovative solvency.
To be honest, I'm tired of people bitching and not doing anything about it.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
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won't somebody please think of the children?
how can you possibly think that by dumping an ass ton of money to a city, and quite possibly the least deserving city in the country, will somehow make them learn? and i like what you did there...put all the blame on the teachers and none on their worthless parents. that way if all the blames on the teachers money seems like a much easier solution. not to mention the kids. just because they are adolescents does not make them totally absolved from responsibility. do you honestly think that the tons of fuck up kids in that school system will somehow be inspired to learn when you dump money into their system? lol if you do.
as far as a solution, i think a better one would be bringing the federal government into detroit and so they can personally give allowances out. otherwise you're just giving it to the corrupt politicians and what not.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
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Ok. Federalizing the school system seems like a good idea, the idea certainly infringes on states rights, but one could argue that the state lost its rights when they lost control of the education system.
Parents are part of the problem too, but the parents have nothing to do with the mis-allocation of money. Parents are too busy being single, and working 3 jobs to keep money on the table/put their kids through school to actually be at home and be good parents.
You are right though, a government that did misappropriate money will buy hookers with it again. But you're missing the finer points here. There's no way in the world they could blow all 500m on hookers, and get away with it. The students have to benefit from the new books, and improved facilities that this money will go to. They would probably benefit with 100million in mis-appropriated money.
Another point not covered is how the 500m amount was arrived at. I'm pretty sure a structured case was built with an eye towards the bare minimum amount needed to get Detroit back on its feet, with plans for where the money needs to go established before the grant was considered.
Finally, why is Detroit not deserving of the funds? Because they have such an abyssmal graduation/college ready rate?
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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Jack Sawyer
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
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Ltrain
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Flush
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Location: Miami, Florida
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Getting back to OP's question, should we just let everything fall into depression or try to help the current situation from going down the tube, even if it means possibly helping industries that would die anyway? I favor doing what you can rather than a depression, let the markets down slowly, and the bad businesses will not survive anyway. In the meantime though, the dying companies will put food on people's table until the system adjusts.
From your post you imply that you would rather just let it all go and have a massive depression until the system adjusts, almost like a giant worldwide death match where only the strong survive. Ok, I will grant you that some social darwinism is good to bring about change for the long term greater good, but in your scenario, when the hungry desperate mob shows up on your doorstep with nothing to lose and ready to kill and steal from you to survive, are you ready?
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
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Yeah after hearing some of my grandparents stories about the great depression and the dustbowl, followed by the stuff I've seen on the history channel..
I'm pretty sure I'd take cyanide before go through that.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Thanks to Obama pursuing sound financial and economic policies we will not even remember this moderate recession in a few years time. What frustrates me is that so many people will benefit immensely from these policies, but they will still lament them due to uneducated ideology.
And no, a GD would not be best. The GD was one of the prime movers that put Hitler into power, but on the flip side the GD was by far the prime mover that made the US realize sound economic policy which created the greatest middle class in history and greatest economy in history for decades until the wealthy people got their hold on the Republican Party and tricked the majority of Americans into voting for anti-middle class policies.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I'm depressed. It's not fucking great at all.
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Thanks for making me not hate myself for clicking on this thread.
/hijack
//gogo flame wars
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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[x] accidentally the economy
[ ] ?
[ ] profit
Is that bad?
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LOL OPERATIONS
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mrhappy333
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Full House
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Location: Hartford, CT
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At some point someone is going to have to pay the bill. We cannot keep spending spending spending and think good things will happen.
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
At some point someone is going to have to pay the bill. We cannot keep spending spending spending and think good things will happen.
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For just about every other country in the world, I would agree. The problem is that America has circumnavigated the worth of the dollar by simply printing more. They've also prevented hyperinflation somehow.
Simple fact of the matter: There really doesn't seem to be any negative repercussion to declaring the national debt null and void (that the gov't wouldn't just pass an immediate law to stymie), and the Gov't has been acting like it for the last 16 years with no end in sight.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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BankItDrew
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I've always thought of bailouts as a wall extension for a river dam. The water continues to rise and rise but the people don't care, they just keep adding new heights to their wall. It does not fix the problem, it only prolongs the inevitable. The problem gets worse and worse.
The economy can only get worse before it gets better. We need to take the hit we delivered to ourselves and we will survive it.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I'm depressed. It's not fucking great at all.
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Thanks for making me not hate myself for clicking on this thread.
/hijack
//gogo flame wars |
Seriously. Bail me the fuck out.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
The economy can only get worse before it gets better. We need to take the hit we delivered to ourselves and we will survive it.
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Aye, but we'll all know the taste of dog meat before we're through.
At least the nights will be quiet.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Yes, wufwugy, I stole that from Rome.
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,237
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Here is the money that I owe you
yeah so you can pay the bills.
I will give you more when I get paid again.
I hate those people that love to tell you
money is the root of all that kills.
They have never been poor
they have never had a joy of a welfare christmas.
I will buy you a garden
where your flowers can bloom
I will buy you a new car
perfect shiny and new
I will buy you that big house
way up in the west hills
I will buy you a new life
yes I will
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Parkour to you!
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
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I'm seriously biting my tongue because I know nobody likes my lengthy posts and everybody thinks they're a genius on topics which they have no education, yet it turns out those uninformed opinions are the same opinions wielded by the Hoover administration and many members of the Congress of the early 30s which actually caused the Great Depression.
This isn't some unknown crazy situation. Financiers and economists who have stuided the Depression, Lost Decade, Keynesianism, and have no conflicts of interest, etc have not been running around with their heads off, and have actually been implementing excellent policy.
The best example of this, even though there are many, is the bailouts. They certainly could have been done better, but their effectiveness thus far has still been very high. We forget (or don't even learn in the first place) that allowing the financial system to collapse was by far the biggest mover in turning a mild recession into the Great Depression.
Excluding uninformed lasseiz-faire libertarian/conservative ideology which science has shown to be disastrous economically, the main contention to the bailouts is that it'll cause hyperinflation. That also is hogwash for many non-abstract reasons. The economy is contracting, this means that we're in fear of deflation, not inflation, so there goes a bunch of the lamentations against inflation. But not only that, hyperinflation would take an astronomically epic amount of fiat currency creation/borrowing due to how many trillions upon trillions of USD exists in the world today. Even if we went the entirely ludicrous and implausible scenario of creating thousands of trillions of USD and collapse the USD the rest of the world would also collapse due to their extreme dependence upon US economy and currency.
This is not doomsday, economists and financiers have learned soooooooo much since the Depression, and we should thank our lucky stars that the man in charge actually listens to facts and logic instead of espousing rigid uneducated ideology like his opposition currently does and like the morons who created the GD did.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Yes, wufwugy, I stole that from Rome.
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what was the name of that idol goddess that lucius vorenus was gonna FUCK IN THE ASS?
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Yes, wufwugy, I stole that from Rome.
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what was the name of that idol goddess that lucius vorenus was gonna FUCK IN THE ASS? |
Pshaw. Concord.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Man that was easily the best scene in the whole fucking show
lucius is such a fucking badass. omar who? josey wales who?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
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Location: This room is a good place to be
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Here's how I see both politics and economics. It's all bullshit.
Let's focus on what's important. Exploring and understanding ourselves and the universe. Everything else is just the flavor of the day. SSDD.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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o yea second best scene was when lucius threatened to kill cleopatra
i so need to watch that again, but im putting it off longer and longer so it's more fresh next time around
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Here's how I see both politics and economics. It's all bullshit.
Let's focus on what's important. Exploring and understanding ourselves and the universe. Everything else is just the flavor of the day.
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It's sometimes a struggle to tell when you're joking (kudos cuz that's a sweet quality l.do) but you know better than to, not only contradict yourself, but to claim that science, even if they're social sciences, is bullshit.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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politics and economics are bullshit.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
We forget (or don't even learn in the first place) that allowing the financial system to collapse was by far the biggest mover in turning a mild recession into the Great Depression.
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Your entire post is spot on, but this I agree most with.
The actual problem is, though, that this problem is actually inherent to the financial systems as we have these today.
Every few years this is gonna happen, all the while inflation continues on its course. The phenomenon that very few people can call themselves debt-free and/or do not rely on credit cards really does not help the cause.
Solving the problem with more inflation is not solving the problem. But proponents of any other solutions are called crackpots and generally given the salem-witch-trials treatment. Its sad, really.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
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hang on, you edited your post after I qouted it and was engulfed in thought. I do not agree with most of it anymore.
But I will not argue, so gg
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
politics and economics are bullshit.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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lol
scientific method ftw
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
politics and economics are bullshit.
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I'm pretty sure they're not real, still working on my theory.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Rilla have you ever heard of the Zeitgeist Movement? Google that and the Venus Project, you might like some of the stuff there.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...87043163636261
Okay carry on everyone, nothing to see here.
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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great depression=cheap whores being cheaper and whorrier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flomo
great depression=cheap whores being cheaper and whorrier
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holy shit sign me up!
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,077
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HAHA, this is sooo true. They have been lowering their rates on Craigslist lately. used to be 200 now they mostly charge 180. Its strange how the recession affects everybody!
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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b-rabbit
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: virginia
Posts: 207
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haha craigslist personals crack me up
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do the right thing.
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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It's not like there are other options. The bailouts are needed now or the economy collapses. The government is the only body capable of stimulating the economy when the businesses and consumers have lost their faith in it. This means more government spending and increasing foreign debt, which in itself is getting out of hand and is going to bankrupt the whole country if something isn't done fast. Fixing the first immediate problem makes the second one worse. In the long run massive spending cuts and tax raises will be required, as well as reforming the health care system, which by 2050 will eat over 20% of the GDP annually and will keep rising.
Quite amazing how it got like this in 8 years from the big budget surplus the previous years. Well not amazing really, all it took was 2 huge tax cuts for the rich, 2 wars and a medicare bill to boost drug company profits.
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 514
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I think I accidently this Obama guy.
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 642
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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cr4zybe4utifu1
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Moderator
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 700
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lucothefish
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Haha, love it!
Has anyone here actually studied economics?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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i hate it! its making fun of my choice! swap in bush plz for a good hearty laugh.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 642
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
i hate it! its making fun of my choice! swap in bush plz for a good hearty laugh.
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I almost went with Bush saying "I accidentally the economy, is that bad?" Maybe someone else can do one (there's a few snaps of him in the FTR gallery).
FWIW I Like Obama, but well the opportunity arose here so \m/
And futurama avatars are sexy.
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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