A Song of Ice and Fire ***MAJOR SPOILERS from a game of thrones up to TWOW***

[a500lbgorilla]

And the wolves are just wolves. They don't mean anything. They've died, been abandoned, been useless in a time of need... they're just a chief example of man taming beast, and that some man has special powers to become that beast, nothing more.

[Renton]

I don't know what runs as a spoiler in this thread because, hell, it's all been read

but, some people on the internet have been re-reading and they've come up with some very interesting thoughts.

First among them:

And it's seriously a spoiler, so you're really spoiling a bit of future revelation.

Really, it won't be so sweet when you find out that...

The next thing is true...

Spoiler: Show

Jon Snow is a Targaryen.

The son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen

I'll put it in spoiler tags I guess, but the theory that you are referring to is fairly obvious, IMO.

Spoiler: Show

R+L = J theory is pretty damn plain and implied many many times, but the clincher for me is in the Ned flashback where he describes the battle at the Tower of Joy. The duty of the Kingsguard is revealed to be quite simple: they defend the King or his heirs to the death. Since the battle at the Tower of Joy happened a while after the battle of the Trident and the sack of King's Landing, it would have been known by Arthur Dayne and the other Kingsguard at that point that the sitting king Aerys, his firstborn son Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's son Aegon were all dead. Ned found Lyanna in a "bed of blood" in the tower after he dispatched the three Kingsguard, childbirth only makes sense for her death as there would have been no point in the Kingsguard defending the tower if they meant Lyanna harm. They would simply have yielded. It is pretty clear that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in secret and she birthed his son in that tower, the person with the greatest claim to the throne at the time.

And the wolves are just wolves. They don't mean anything. They've died, been abandoned, been useless in a time of need... they're just a chief example of man taming beast, and that some man has special powers to become that beast, nothing more.

Eh the wolves have clear links to the other mysterious powers of the north, and Bran, Jon, and Arya have demonstrated warg-links to them. Robb's wolf was only useless during his need because of Robb's hubris. He was rejecting his wolf more and more at the end.

[Renton]

More speculation:

Spoiler: Show

Rhaegar is described as a dude who was constantly brooding over books and scriptures, obsessed with the prophecy of the "prince who was promised." First he thinks it is himself, then he thinks its Aegon. In one of Dany's visions in the House of the Undying is of Rhaegar holding his newborn son Aegon, telling his wife that his is "the Song of Ice and Fire." I interpret this to be him mistaking the prophecy yet again, as it makes more sense for a Stark/Targaryen link (Jon) to be the prince that was promised.

Of course Gurm gonna Gurm: Maester Aemon is certain that Daenerys is the prince who was promised, for good reasons. Melisandre is betting on Stannis being the one. Varys and Dorne think its Aegon. Who knows, lol.

[JKDS]

Gtfo with these spoiler tags you bunch of whale saving hippies!

[Renton]

Almost finished with my first reread. Man, ADWD is so good. It's kind of funny how poorly I read the series the first time, missing a lot of really blatant shit. Like, I didn't pick up that Arya is full-on skinchanger. I mean I always knew she had wolf dreams and stuff and saw her mother etc, but I missed the part in ADWD where she skinchanges to figure out who was hitting her when she was blind.

[a500lbgorilla]

On the fly and off my gut, I told someone they should just watch the show and not worry about reading the books when asked if the books were worth reading.

What are your opinions when moderate readers ask if the books are worth it?

[bikes]

this episode vexes me. i am terribly vexed.

they are pussifying samwise the slayer

they cut out all the good dialogue between tormund and jon and the real reason jon gave for leaving the nightswatch

i am unsure of wtf they are doing with harrenhal

no arstan whitebeard =(

less damn ros please.

that all being said the acting between peter dinklage and charles dance was wtf amazing. FUCK YEAH GIANTS. Dragons looked wicked cool. More Mance, more Bronn please. Natalie Dormer is killing it as Maergery as well.

[Renton]

Disconnect your concepts of the show and the books. They have diverged a shitload by now. I agree the show 3rd season is off to a rocky start though. I thought it was poorly timed. There was way too much of the same character jumping too quickly through time in consecutive scenes. Like how Davos played out his whole story in like 4 consecutive scenes.

Yeah Sam sucked, in the books he got the ravens off. But don't worry, he hasn't had a chance to become the slayer yet, I'm sure they'll still allow him that later this season.

Most of the large story changes I'm ok with in light of the fact that its a show, not a book. Getting rid of Belwas/Whitebeard was a prudent move. Having Davos lose only one son on the Blackwater somewhat lessens the blow to him but it was a good idea to cut three characters from the payroll who have short lifespans anyway. I'm wary of the direction they are going with LF/Sansa, but again removing Dontos as a character allows for more Sansa facetime with more relevant characters like Littlefinger and Olenna.

[Hoopy]

Now I'm going to have to reread the books.

[a500lbgorilla]

Show Tywin is The Win.

[dranger7070]

I'm so confused as to who ros is? Been sitting.g here at work trying to figure it out..

[philly and the phanatics]

On the fly and off my gut, I told someone they should just watch the show and not worry about reading the books when asked if the books were worth reading.

What are your opinions when moderate readers ask if the books are worth it?

books are soooo worth it...as long as its not feast of crows, that book sucked

[Renton]

From asoiaf wiki:

Ros is a prostitute at the winter town outside of Winterfell. She has only appeared in the TV series and is played by Esmé Bianco.[1] Although her character was created specifically for the TV series, she is based in part on a character in A Game of Thrones known as the "red-headed whore". Additionally, some of Chataya and Alayaya's roles have been folded into her character. George R. R. Martin has said he will likely work Ros into the books at some point as a cameo.

[bikes]

SAY THE DAMN LINE JOJEN!

"this is not the day i die!"

[Renton]

Man a lot of cringe-worthy departures this episode.

[JKDS]

He didn't state that Jon Snow's great great great x 1000 grandfather buggered Dany's great great great x 1000 grandfather

Well....

lolol

[Renton]

Yeah I like that my absurd notion has about a 7% chance of being completely accurate.

[bikes]

everytime i see samwell on the show all i can think of is 'this pussbag is the son of randyll tarly, probably the greatest battle commander in westeros, wtf.'

[bikes]

the moments we've all been waiting for are arriving. petty show watchers about to bathe in the bloodbath that is gurm writing.

[Renton]

surely there won't be time for the red wedding + joffrey + tywin? I'm thinking that joffrey will open season 4 and tywin will be like halfway through s4.

[philly and the phanatics]

i figured red wedding/daenerys murking astapor/start of wildings attack on wall would finish out this season...joffrey/stannis bailout early 4...lysa/tywin towards the end of 4..

[Renton]

Well dany's about to pwn astapor next episode or the one after I think. I think she'll be at the gates of Meereen at the end of the season.

[JKDS]

I love these.

http://www.happyplace.com/23035/game...on-3-episode-2

[baudib]

I have seen episodes 3 and 4.

Spoiler: Show

HOLY FUCKING SHIT

[a500lbgorilla]

I have seen episodes 3 and 4.

How's that?

[bikes]

that was not how i remember reading the

"rhaegar fought honorably, rhaegar fought xxxx, rhaegar fought xxx and rhaegar died"

in my head.



also ffffffffffyes brutus and caesar, more vargo hoat and the brave companions imo!

[dranger7070]

Cannot believe the jittery in that thread sometimes. -_-

Red wedding will definitely cap the season imo. Too much to get through before then in 6 episodes.

[bikes]

i have seen the previews of ep 4. finally. lord beric fucking dondarrion!

[Renton]

dranger, nothing in the show has suggested that dany is sterile. The mirri quote was edited a bit to only refer to drogo in the series. You need to not post in that thread anymore. Just after I defended you, too. I am disappoint, son.

[dranger7070]

Whaaaaaat!? I could have swore at the end of season one mirri said the easy and west thing. My bad. (((((((((((((

[bikes]

as if i did not despise wufwugy enough already, he is referring to lord beric fucking dondarrion as whatshiseyedouche. gurm could literally write a book all about the seven deaths of lord beric dondarrion and nothing else and it would be awesome.

also lol wufwugy thinking dany is coming quickly to westeros. 7 seasons later and she'll still be in mereen

[JKDS]

Still in mereen with absolutely no development at that. She rides her dragon, that's all thats left lol.

Wuf et al wants characters to die to simplify the show. Lucky for them, grrm is soon ablige! Though, I feel its gonna piss wuf off...especially cuz several of them ate great actors.

[Renton]

What? She just sacked Astapor and the next few episodes will be in Yunkai. The season finale is called "Mhysa" which sounds like they'll end S3 with her just arriving in Meereen. I imagine season four for Dany will take place entirely in Meereen, and season 5 will have her riding Drogon at some point. Seems like at the pace they are setting, they'll take care of the five books in six seasons, mayyybe seven. According to most sources I've read season 4 will consist mostly of ASOS events and overlap slightly into AFFC/ADWD. But I think they'll not have much issue cramming AFFC/ADWD into like 20-25 episodes, again, at the breakneck pace they seem to be making.

[Renton]

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchi...rophecies.html

These were written before ADWD so the last book sheds some additional light on all this. There's a shitload of info in the Undying and Quaithe prophecies and some of it is pretty damn obvious.

[Renton]

Oh also just found this lol, its a bit more extensive.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies

[bikes]

Red Wedding question: Why was grrm so unspecific about Roose Bolton being the one who personally slays Robb. I didn't know about that until many chapters later when it was hearsay in another part of Westeros?

Seems more natural to play up the betrayal of Roose's action instead of him being some nameless sword who kills him.

Jamie to Roose "Give my regards to Robb Stark"

Pink guy who kills Robb " Jamie Lannister sends his regards!"

[Renton]

Yeah I realized later that it was probably just an unreliable narrator thing. She's all fucked up with grief so her description is gonna deteriorate.

[Renton]

That the show isn't showing prophecies whatsoever is a massive bummer. I think they may do the some of the Quaithe stuff since they bothered to cast her in the show, but they've forgone every other prophecy opportunity. Even Melisandre in the series doesn't really forecast shit.

[bikes]

super bummed the dany prophesies didn't show rheagar's "the dragon must have three heads" or dany reaching for the throne, seeing jon snow on it and then heading north to the wall

or for that matter no maggie the frog either

[bikes]

so many opportunities for tormund's HAR. BUT NO.

[JKDS]

Prophesies, wolf dreams, HEH. Aint nobody got time for that.

[bikes]

lol poor show watchers. robb looks so excited with his new scheme to take casterly rock with the help of the freys.

[Renton]

I have two theories about the fact that the show is eschewing prophecies.

1) A written description of an image is more vague than a literal image onscreen would be. I.E. showing the scene of the red wedding with robb and co all dead sitting at a table in the Undying prophecy wouldn't really fly for the show.

2) Many of the prophecies in the show are longgggg range predictions. I suspect most of the undying shit hasn't even happened as of ADWD. So having a scene in a one hour show that won't pay off until 7-8 seasons later is kind of a bad idea.

[philly and the phanatics]

so ldo jon somehow isnt dead right? they spent so much time setting up so much shit for him that it really wouldnt make much sense for him to die here, but i guess who knows.

It was painfully obvious what was going to happen to Quentyn or however you spell it. I feel it is unlikely that this incident will incite Dorne against the Targaryns and inspire loyalty to the Lannisters.

I'm bummed that K-Lann died, although Varys is a gangster. I was hoping we'd see some K-Lann as maybe a POV char next book.

The mountain is LDO robert the giant or w/e which i find pretty dumb.

i just finished ADWD if you cannot tell.

[JKDS]

JON FUCKING LIVES. I WILL BE SO PISSED OTHERWISE

[Renton]

so ldo jon somehow isnt dead right? they spent so much time setting up so much shit for him that it really wouldnt make much sense for him to die here, but i guess who knows.

It was painfully obvious what was going to happen to Quentyn or however you spell it. I feel it is unlikely that this incident will incite Dorne against the Targaryns and inspire loyalty to the Lannisters.

I'm bummed that K-Lann died, although Varys is a gangster. I was hoping we'd see some K-Lann as maybe a POV char next book.

The mountain is LDO robert the giant or w/e which i find pretty dumb.

i just finished ADWD if you cannot tell.

Jon is almost certainly not dead but he might be dead in the sense that he's no longer a POV character (i.e. Catelyn). Either he'll warg somehow or/and Melisandre will rez him. He's too important to her visions for anything else to happen. Also, we haven't seen the true reveal of Jon's parents and what will hinge from that. I suspect that will emerge either from Bran's greenseeing or it is already happening behind the scenes as Robb had sent a letter legitimizing Jon as his heir to Greywater Watch and Howland Reed.

It's probable IMO that Jon's death in the NW mutiny will be his analog to Dany's funeral pyre that hatched her dragons.

What follows is long range speculation about Jon based on prophecy:

Spoiler: Show

Assuming Jon's parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar (practically a lock at this point, I'd bet 10,000 to 1,000 on it), the Undying pretty clearly predicts a Jon/Dany romance. The bit about "bride of fire" is preceded by three visions, one which pretty obviously points to her marriage to Drogo, one that is pretty cryptic but seems to represent Victarion, and one where she sees a "blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness." This vision not only locks it up that Jon Snow is Lyanna's child, but also makes a clear link between Dany and Jon, probably a romance.

Also, Rh'llor seems to be making a large connection between Stannis and Jon. I'm thinking that Mel may use/betray Stannis in some way to help Jon, sacrificing his king's blood to revive Jon as Azor Ahai in smoke and salt for example.

Robert Strong is kind of lame but it's not cheating or anything, Qyburn's story has been building up to this for thousands of pages. I think probably Strong will win his trial by combat which will keep Cersei in the game a little longer and kill off another character (curious who the High Septon will choose to fight him).

The Quentyn incident will almost certainly not cause Dorne to back the Lannisters, it may however cause them to back Aegon instead of Dany, which they are already doing anyway. I thought Quentyn's story was cool, I like when a plot that we thought was gonna be important just gets quashed in an instant. Gotta give GRRM some game theory props, not everything has to lead somewhere important. Although the dragon-taming incident did cause holy havoc to be wreaked on Meereen, and I'm sure two pissed off dragons taking potshots at whomever they feel like is gonna have an effect on the battle at the start of the next book.

[bikes]

show watchers gonna be livid as fuck when ygritte dies.

also the guy playing ramsay snow is fucking nailing it.

[JKDS]

Im glad Joe Shmow is finally showing some love for the ygerrs. Shes been fawning over him all show, and hes just like "its cold, this sucks, i miss winterfell" with that bitchy lame ass look in his eyes. Jon is fucking awesome, and this show does him no justice. Same with Sam.

Is it possible for Gendry to be with Mel right now? Like, perhaps just an untold story instead of a completely implausible made up one? I feel like its the latter, but its been awhile :/

[oskar]

show watchers gonna be livid as fuck when ygritte dies.

I for one won't be because I don't even have a hint of an idea who that is. And that is the whole problem with this show for me! I might actually be retarded because I cannot keep track of 100 different characters. Are there people... how do you even read these books?
Just on the last show they spent another 20 minutes on that guy who killed those kids who might as well be dead for a season and a half - why should I care? Where can that character possibly go? Why are they ice climbing?

[bikes]

this is the tormund ive been waiting for. HAAAAAR

theon def castrated, which eliminates the theory theon may someday rise to the seastone chair.
seeing the necklace shae will be strangled with made me all tingly.
100% positive now robb's wife is a lannister plant.
storms end looked wtf amazing.
osha needs to take rickon to skagos already. getting real tired of her shit.
more tyWINNING
and also best "hodor" of the season.

[bikes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

[Renton]

the best hodor of the season was when bran was having the nightmare and he's like frantically "HODOR HODOR !" and then when bran wakes up and is ok he's like relieved "hodor"

[JKDS]

Shes playing a dangerous game amigo

[Renton]

Cute how the previews for next episode are most likely scenes from the finale.

[JKDS]

Even writing eric out of the show, melisandra still wanted to kill the guy for the blood. this makes it seem like the leeches were her idea, even though they dont succeed in stopping the false kings. Thats gonna make her look weaker than she is imo.

[Renton]

Even writing eric out of the show, melisandra still wanted to kill the guy for the blood. this makes it seem like the leeches were her idea, even though they dont succeed in stopping the false kings. Thats gonna make her look weaker than she is imo.

wat robb, balon, and joff will be dead within the next 4 episodes prob

[JKDS]

Yeah they die, but they get replaced just as quickly. The book implied that this was a temporary solution, and that if they killed eric instead of just sucking him dry, then the war would have ended.

[bikes]

NOT MY HAIR! NED LOVES MY HAIR!

Tonight!

[baudib]

A WEDDING IS COMING

Somehow the sickos at HBO made this scene even more tragic than the book. I would not have thought that possible.

[bikes]

how the fuck is the hottest girl in the show a frey?

[JKDS]

Questions!

I just read wiki speculation that Jayne does actually die somewhere...because Jaime later gives an inconsistent description of someone that claims to be her.

ALSO, hound lives? People be claiming that accounts of the hounds soon to be death are metaphor. "The Hound" died, but sandor lives doing stuff.

[bikes]

Questions!

I just read wiki speculation that Jayne does actually die somewhere...because Jaime later gives an inconsistent description of someone that claims to be her.

ALSO, hound lives? People be claiming that accounts of the hounds soon to be death are metaphor. "The Hound" died, but sandor lives doing stuff.

Jeyne is alive iirc. Her mother supported the lannisters so they all were spared.

The house is believed to be alive digging graves on some island for the seven.

[JKDS]

So, joffery dies now yes? Hes gotta die. He dies right after the wedding, i remember that. Gotta make the watchers cheer up a bit by killing the douchebag king right?

[bikes]

people seem to think this will end with stoneheart rez.

[JKDS]

Naw, no way! I think the last 5min will be joff dying at his wedding, it being all silent...and then cersei going GUARDS! And then they apprehend tyrion and fade to black.

Gonna have the fight for castle black here too. I imagine theyll let dany take the city too. Both battles win, wedding celebration thing, THEN DEATH AND THE ARREST OF THE FAVORITE CHARACTER!

[JKDS]

I mean, rezzing deadcat will put focus on her. Then shes just gonna not exist for 2-4 more seasons. I think theyll delay that as long as possible o.o

[bikes]

wedding unlikely to be this season due to the fact they havent intro'ed the martells yet imo

[JKDS]

Callin it now.

-Sam meets up with bran
-Gendry escapes with help of davos
-joff dies
-sansa flees with littlefinger
-dany takes the city
-castle black defended and ygritte dies.

boom. that wraps up all the tension theyve been building this season, and isnt too hard to fit into a single episode. Still got some cliffhangers with tyrion and davos, and arya is still with hound. Calling it now, all 6 of these will happen!

[Renton]

I really don't think the Purple Wedding will be next episode, but on the other hand it would be odd to go so many episodes without an update on Jamie. At the very least I think he'll die in the season 4 premiere. I think we'll probably see ygritte's death and gendry's escape, and they'll spend a lot of time on the RW aftermath, the massacre of Robb's bannermen and the dumping of cat's body. The joff birthday scene will have a lot of time spent on it (giveaway is him saying "I AM THE KING!" in the trailer, he says this in response to Tyrion saying he'll not allow him to force Sansa to kiss Robb's head in the books). Thats more than enough to fill an episode.

p.s. and definitely will end with un-cat.

[JKDS]

If the show introduces un-cat and then the character disappears for 3+ seasons (1 more for b3, 2+ for b4 and b5) then the directors are bigger trolls than TrollTroll Martin himself.

[bikes]

If the show introduces un-cat and then the character disappears for 3+ seasons (1 more for b3, 2+ for b4 and b5) then the directors are bigger trolls than TrollTroll Martin himself.

she's only going to be gone for 1 season max. if that. it's never to early to start hanging freys imo!

[JKDS]

Gah, i just read up...and it seems shes resurrected super quickly. 3 days after dying even :/

[a500lbgorilla]

she'll prob be reintroduced sometime later, after brienne and podrick are well into their merry merry.

I'm assuming they'll try to establish beric's adventures that take him to her. They may even make it an on-screen res.

[baudib]

There'll be some measure of Stark retribution this episode.

This spoiler is 95% legit

Spoiler: Show

Seems Arya draws first blood against the Freys

[bikes]

Pics have been released. GreyRobb StarkWind will be seen this episode.