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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #18376
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    Ong, to be fair to you, it's a very standard misconception that this type of "privatization" is something that pro-capitalism people are in favor of. In fact, we despise it probably even more than you do.
  2. #18377
    Way more. Imagine how Ong would feel if the vast majority of people thought that weed causes cancer, stroke, and syphilis. Yeah, that's what we have to put up with when people say the US healthcare system is private or that it was private before ACA.
  3. #18378
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubreymcfate View Post
    can you please share the link to that podcast? I've been reading about Ed Bernays and WW1 propaganda, so I'm curious to see how that fits in.
    Blueprint for Armageddon in his Hardcore History series. It's massive and exhausting just listening to what that war was. But, also incredible, in that Germany and Hitler learned a lesson from the Twitter of the time. How they would take the basic abstract truths of certain events and sensationalize them to paint the Germans as the obvious force for evil. Clearly something that's still alive and well today. The Germans were just not prepared for the rhetoric game in the first WW. But I have the sense that that'll become damned masters of it by the Second.
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  4. #18379
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    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/02/te...tag/index.html

    I submit to you, the racism litmus test. I laughed a little too hard at it so I'm thinking I need sensitivity training or something.
  5. #18380
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Hey I just want to throw out a quick fuck Obama for making my monthly Obamacare tax payment of about $240 for the most useless health insurance plan you could fucking imagine.
    So who are you paying $240 to? Who provides you with medical care in the event you get sick? Is the doctor employed by the government whose priority is public health, or a private company subject to profit targets and such?

    I'm sorry for not knowing what I'm talking about. Educate me. Explain to me why this isn't privatisation of public services.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #18381
    That whole gorilla story made me laugh. It just emphasise that our attitude is what's racist. A robot analyses a black couple and concludes that it is probably a pair of gorillas. The robot isn't racist, obviously. So it's not an issue, right? Wait, it's still a huge embarrassment that google has to apologise for. Who the hell gets offended by this? Who are they apologising to? I'd have respected google more if they programmed the robot to say sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #18382
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    It's not privatization because the U.S. government has a heavy hand in practically every aspect of the healthcare supply chain, from insurance to medical practice. One thing I grudgingly give to the Europeans is that when you socialism you go full socialism, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that as fucked as that is, it's better than the hybrid semi crony brand of socialism that the Americans are cooking up.
  8. #18383
    $240 a month is a lot to pay for a public service.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #18384
    Point being, someone somewhere is making a fuckton of money off the back off this.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #18385
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Point being, someone somewhere is making a fuckton of money off the back off this.
    Exactly. And that's not privatization. That's the government in bed with insurance companies. Guess what happens if I don't pay it? I get a tax penalty.

    I also have a deductible of $5,000 that I have to spend each year out of pocket before it covers a goddamn thing. It's basically a $3,000 yearly tax just because Obama felt like it.

    I wish they'd kiss me though. I like to be kissed when I'm GETTING FUCKED.
  11. #18386
    So it's the insurance companies that are making the money, right? You can at least understand why I consider this to be capitalism, rather than socialism, right? You have private companies making money here, at least that's what it looks like to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #18387
    Buy shares in the insurance company that you're getting fucked by. That way you're fucking yourself every time you get a dividend.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #18388
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So it's the insurance companies that are making the money, right? You can at least understand why I consider this to be capitalism, rather than socialism, right? You have private companies making money here, at least that's what it looks like to me.
    Market capitalism is not when specific private companies make money because of laws that favor them. That's rent-seeking.

    No economist calls our healthcare system remotely free market.
  14. #18389
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    I'm sorry for not knowing what I'm talking about. Educate me. Explain to me why this isn't privatisation of public services.
    To use this language, it's governmentisation of a private service.

    Here's one: the US government has put many laws on the books that make it really hard and really expensive to provide this service or to purchase its products. The real supply of healthcare is actually super high and the real cost of care is super low, but the current costs do not reflect these because of government policies that restrict conduction of what the real capacity of the economy is.

    One example: there are lots of people who are capable of performing dentistry functions and there are tons of consumers who would choose their services. But this is illegal. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to provide dentistry is off the charts, and doing so is extremely expensive. This in turn makes the supply of dentistry services low, while demand is still high. This makes it horribly expensive. Furthermore, this makes less total care and hurts the poor the most. When laws have been changed to allow dentistry services without so many worthless regulations, the amount of care that the poor receive goes up.

    This piss-poor dynamic is created by a handful of private organizations lobbying the government to give them specific benefits at the expense of the rest of the economy and everybody in it. This is not capitalism. It is cronyism, and I'd like it if people would stop calling things the government does by mandate as being market capitalism.
  15. #18390
    This is not capitalism. It is cronyism, and I'd like it if people would stop calling things the government does by mandate as being market capitalism.
    Getting annoyed by me for being stupid and calling something capitalism when it isn't, while you're getting fucked by your government, I must say your annoyance seems somewhat misdirected.

    $3k a year spoon is paying for helath insurance. That's a fortnight in New Zealand.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #18391
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    It's not about being annoyed at you. It's about making sure you and others understand what a smart conservative or libertarian really means when he says he wants more privatization. The last thing he wants is this faux-privatization.
  17. #18392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/02/te...tag/index.html

    I submit to you, the racism litmus test. I laughed a little too hard at it so I'm thinking I need sensitivity training or something.
    I don't even pretend I can pass racist litmus tests, but black people can look like gorillas just like GWB could look like a monkey. We're fucking apes, you apes.
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  18. #18393
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  19. #18394
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    I've been thinking about polygamy in the Ape world. I know in their natural environment it's natural for a male to have several female mates, but once in a zoo, this isn't necessary. And whilst I'm not aware of any female ape complaining, that's probably because they don't know better. So I propose putting a stop to this shameful sexism and ensuring that from now on each male ape can only have one female. How do you think those female apes feel? Used and unappreciated I bet. If you support equal opportunity between the sexes then this draconian practice needs to stop.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  20. #18395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    It's not about being annoyed at you. It's about making sure you and others understand what a smart conservative or libertarian really means when he says he wants more privatization. The last thing he wants is this faux-privatization.
    Why not direct your annoyance at the poor use of confusing language by smart conservatives and libertarians?

    No matter how many times you tell me that what I mean by capitalism is not what you mean by capitalism, isn't going to change the fact that I'm using the common parlance definition. If you insist on using words outside the bounds of their common parlance, then you have to accept being misunderstood most of the time by people outside your field.

    Do you think this invites them into a more clever understanding of your field? Or pushes them away?
    Which do you prefer?

    I am not convinced that capitalism = economics. I do not see what is explained by this muddling of terms. If they are the same, I'd prefer to use economics, and not capitalism. After all, the equals sign works in both directions, and economics covers a more broad area than capitalism (in the common usage).


    When I answer physics questions, I am careful to choose words which my audience will find intuitive. When I choose to use a word in a manner that is beyond common intuition, I state as much. I try to avoid this as much as possible, but sometimes I end up with things like, "observation means interaction." To me, this is an important point, as the language doesn't imply that these are the same. However, at the scale of particle interactions, the "observer" that we focus on in physics is a particle. It "observes" by being affected.

    My point is that, I accept that fields produce jargon for a reason (my chosen field as much as any other). Jargon streamlines communication of a very specific class. However, when communicating outside of the field, then care must be taken to avoid sounding like an uninviting snob.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 07-03-2015 at 12:59 PM.
  21. #18396
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    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    I've been thinking about polygamy in the Ape world. I know in their natural environment it's natural for a male to have several female mates, but once in a zoo, this isn't necessary. And whilst I'm not aware of any female ape complaining, that's probably because they don't know better. So I propose putting a stop to this shameful sexism and ensuring that from now on each male ape can only have one female. How do you think those female apes feel? Used and unappreciated I bet. If you support equal opportunity between the sexes then this draconian practice needs to stop.
    I know that a quality woman would rather be a quality man's #2 than an average man's #1.
  22. #18397
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    The healthcare system in the U.S. doesn't fit or even approach any common parlance definition of capitalism. I'm not hoarding some special libertarian-edition version of the word, the wikipedia or webster versions will serve. It all comes down to private property ownership. The degree to which people have control and ownership over their property is directly proportional to how capitalistic a system is. You can say all day long that something is privately-owned, but nothing is 100% owned because there are restrictions and obligations to all forms of ownership in a state.

    For example, say I own a car. I have all forms of documentation proving it is mine. But i don't 100% own it, because the ownership isn't unconditional. I'm only able to utilize that car as long as I keep the registration and insurance up to date, pay ad velorum taxes on it, get emission checks annually, keep the tail lights working, etc. All in all, these are fairly reasonable restrictions to abide by, and I would say in the American economy car ownership is easily over 90% private.

    I also own myself, and the output that comes from my effort. The more restrictions on my personal freedom, the less that I own myself. If I have to pay 1/3 of my wages in taxes, I only own 2/3 of my labor.

    If this seems like I'm abusing semantics, just try hypothetically moving the freedom scale toward authoritarianism to a level you're not comfortable with. Move the U.S. tax burden from 38% toward 90%. Take away more and more of the freedoms you believe in, like privacy, free speech, free belief. Add more censorships, more prohibitions. And then tell me that this isn't the very definition of ownership of one's self. Then apply it to the other things you own, like your house, your land, or your business.

    Then, look at how much the state has infected the healthcare industry, making it ever more difficult to become licensed in the medical field, making it ever more difficult to approve new drugs, restricting every aspect of the insurance industry to the point where they can't even charge based on assessed risk (which by the way is their fucking job). Tell me that this is actually private property while keeping a straight face.



    Also, economics is obviously not capitalism. Economic factors are at play regardless of the economic system, whether its capitalism, communism, feudalism, whatever. Capitalism is just the one that has the fewest artificial distortions of economic incentives.
    Last edited by Renton; 07-03-2015 at 01:35 PM.
  23. #18398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    The healthcare system in the U.S. doesn't fit or even approach any common parlance definition of capitalism. I'm not hoarding some special libertarian-edition version of the word, the wikipedia or webster versions will serve. It all comes down to private property ownership. The degree to which people have control and ownership over their property is directly proportional to how capitalistic a system is. You can say all day long that something is privately-owned, but nothing is 100% owned because there are restrictions and obligations to all forms of ownership in a state.

    For example, say I own a car. I have all forms of documentation proving it is mine. But i don't 100% own it, because the ownership isn't unconditional. I'm only able to utilize that car as long as I keep the registration and insurance up to date, pay ad velorum taxes on it, get emission checks annually, keep the tail lights working, etc. All in all, these are fairly reasonable restrictions to abide by, and I would say in the American economy car ownership is easily over 90% private.

    I also own myself, and the output that comes from my effort. The more restrictions on my personal freedom, the less that I own myself. If I have to pay 1/3 of my wages in taxes, I only own 2/3 of my labor.

    If this seems like I'm abusing semantics, just try hypothetically moving the freedom scale toward authoritarianism to a level you're not comfortable with. Move the U.S. tax burden from 38% toward 90%. Take away more and more of the freedoms you believe in, like privacy, free speech, free belief. Add more censorships, more prohibitions. And then tell me that this isn't the very definition of ownership of one's self. Then apply it to the other things you own, like your house, your land, or your business.

    Then, look at how much the state has infected the healthcare industry, making it ever more difficult to become licensed in the medical field, making it ever more difficult to approve new drugs, restricting every aspect of the insurance industry to the point where they can't even charge based on assessed risk (which by the way is their fucking job). Tell me that this is actually private property while keeping a straight face.



    Also, economics is obviously not capitalism. Economic factors are at play regardless of the economic system, whether its capitalism, communism, feudalism, whatever. Capitalism is just the one that has the fewest artificial distortions of economic incentives.
    This is an excellent post.

    Thank you.
  24. #18399
    Let's not stop with female gorilla equality. How about those poor male emperor penguins currently huddling together in the brutal Antarctic winter in a desperate struggle for survival while the bitches are swimming around getting fat in warmer climes?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  25. #18400
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post

    I am not convinced that capitalism = economics.
    I said that to jimmy your rustles. I thought I had made that clear, but apparently not. It was never intended to be a point of debate, but more an example of how I can be controversial. I'm sorry that I made you believe I was making a definitive statement that capitalism is economics. That said, I wouldn't have said capitalism = economics if I didn't think the position is arguable. Let me explain.

    If somebody is doing math, but he's doing it wrong, are they really doing math? Say somebody develops arithmetic theory where 3*3=20 and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't correct. He doesn't prove any of his stuff and everything he does is wrong by any reasonable measure of mathematics. We would say his stuff is not math. We would say that just because he's adding and subtracting doesn't mean he's doing math, because his methods are not sound. If we wanted to be the nittiest of picks about it, we might say his stuff is math on some technical level, but practically he's not, or at least he has thus far provided nothing of worth to the field of mathematics.

    This is where my contention that it is possible to say capitalism = economics comes in. When we discuss economics on this forum, it's pretty much always in a macro and political sense, and it's with the agenda of sound policy in mind. In that context, everything that we know about economics that we consider sound comes out of capitalist framework, or in some sense a rejection of non-capitalist frameworks. The reason I think this point could be of value is that oftentimes people discuss other frameworks as if they have sound economic merit. But the reality is, at least as far as I know, that non-capitalist frameworks provide nothing of value to marco and political economic debate.

    I should have been clearer that I wasn't saying that capitalism = economics in a technical sense. When you said "wuf you can be so confusing", I said "I agree and here's an example of just how confusing I can get". For that, I apologize. My underlying point all along for why I would even suggest such a damned thing is to illustrate that when we discuss economics, some frameworks like socialism are not equally as revealing about sound political economic policy as capitalism. It's to such a degree that we can discard basically everything except capitalism and we'd be better off.


    If this post upsets or confuses you, don't worry about it. Capitalism is not economics and I would be wrong to say so. Beyond what I've said here, there's no need to go further into why I would contend otherwise. Sorry for the confusion.
  26. #18401
    Economics is the evaluation of production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. Capitalism is a political policy theory for how to best do that when the goals are abundance and prosperity.

    These two things can clearly never be equal, but in my wacky brain, if capitalism is the only economic theory by which the goals of abundance and prosperity is achieved, you might be able to set them equal to each other in some sense.

    Maybe it's like saying "mathematics is the universe". That's probably true and not true at the same time.

    Anyways, I apologize for any confusion. This should have been cleared up much earlier, but I didn't realize it was a problem.
  27. #18402
    It should be noted that this is all a bad line for me to take. There's a whole lot of repetition in our economics discussions because different people pop in and out at different times and often the same questions or points are covered. Sometimes I'll say something a little outrageous because it keeps me fresh and engaged.
  28. #18403
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    Suck dicks, foreign scum!



    Today, like all days since 1776, is America day.
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  29. #18404
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  30. #18405
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    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-04-2015 at 08:35 AM.
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  31. #18406
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    People do silly things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

    TL;DR

    A special organ was made to play a piece of music with the tempo indicated as "as slowly as possible."
    The organ is playing a 639 year long version of the piece.
    The next note change isn't until 2020.

    lol... dem links.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer
    A 1,000 year long song? ummmm OK....?
  32. #18407
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    People do silly things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

    TL;DR

    A special organ was made to play a piece of music with the tempo indicated as "as slowly as possible."
    The organ is playing a 639 year long version of the piece.
    The next note change isn't until 2020.

    lol... dem links.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer
    A 1,000 year long song? ummmm OK....?
    lol art
  33. #18408
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    People do silly things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

    TL;DR

    A special organ was made to play a piece of music with the tempo indicated as "as slowly as possible."
    The organ is playing a 639 year long version of the piece.
    The next note change isn't until 2020.

    lol... dem links.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longplayer
    A 1,000 year long song? ummmm OK....?
    there's something interesting to that in theory.. it makes me think about plants and their dimension of time, how it's on such a radically elongated scale in comparison to ours.

    because plants grow so slowly, we need time-lapse videos that condense years into minutes to actually understand their behavior. we could never observe it in real time. same with this: you would have to speed up the music to actually understand it.

    even though it would put the pattern of the whole into relief, it would still be fundamentally different. it would be like a miniature version of a sculpture as large as the planet - it's impossible to see all at once with your scope of vision.

    these are just my initial thoughts knowing little detail about this. i don't really see this as music, more like meta-music, music about music, music deconstructing music. it's not an act of aesthetic creation. reading about this a bit more makes it apparent that it's concerned with a variety of things that fall outside of the realm of what's considered "pure" music.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 07-06-2015 at 05:59 PM.
    Free your mind and your ass will follow.
  34. #18409
    Today a sparrowhawk swooped into our garden and attacked a dove. The hawk was disturbed and flew off, leaving the dove minus a couple of wing feathers, some down fluff, and an eye.

    We left it out of reach of cats, but it's a sitting duck for birds of prey.

    A few of my friends think we should've taken it to a vet to be put out of its misery "humanely". Well, that dove might be an owl's dinner, and if the owl didn't have that easy kill, he might take something healthy. I prefer nature to humane. Nature is a bitch, but it's also awesome.

    Sparrowhawks are awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  35. #18410
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    A few of my friends think we should've taken it to a vet to be put out of its misery "humanely".
    The bold is absolutely hilarious to me. Nothing wrong with stomping its head for the same purpose.
  36. #18411
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    So this guy where my other bitch works was like, "You're breathtaking like a snow capped mountain." I just felt like sharing this because it's so hilariously and uncomfortably bad.

    As you might expect from a female that I've thoroughly trained, she replied with some stinging remark about how if he thought she was the shit, he should see her man.
  37. #18412
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    The bold is absolutely hilarious to me. Nothing wrong with stomping its head for the same purpose.
    I agree.

    The dove actually has a chance of survival though. He's taken refuge in a large pile of leaves in an enclosed bit of the garden next to the house, where foxes and cats won't dare go by day. He can hide in the leaves, and we can leave it food and water. He's vulnerable at night though because the fox will be more daring by night. Just depends if he gets an easier meal elsewhere.

    It seems the dove didn't lose an eye, it merely had feathers obscuring it, making it appear like it had lost an eye. He might recover, he just needs to regain flight.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #18413
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    I know there's no poker in the commune and all of that, but you guys have been complaining about the lack of new blood for a while.

    I've been running a NLHE Foundations Course in the BC and SSNL forums for the past few weeks that has gotten a number of new sign-ups for the forum, and I've been encouraging those new sign-ups to participate in the FTR Community forum.

    Naturally, they're a little shy. If you guys could come chime in in the main thread for the NLHE Foundations Course and help me to encourage these newbies to come hang out in here and waste their lives away, that would be great.
  39. #18414
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    Bill Nye cracking me up.

  40. #18415
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    Amy Schumer is alright-looking for a fat broad, and she's kind of funny sometimes.
  41. #18416
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    NPR was on fire today.

    http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsand...so-why-go-back

    And this one had one haunting bit with some kid with aids on audio panicking to his father that he doesn't feel good and that he wants to go to the hospital, he begins failing minutes later and dies the next day. Just something about thinking about dying from AIDs... man.

    https://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/07/...y-aids-project
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  42. #18417
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    So guys, where's all the happiness in the world? Just point me on, if you would.
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  43. #18418
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    Puppies.

    Tho I prefer kittens.
  44. #18419
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    Rilla, Google deaf baby hearing for first time, will make you feel good.
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  45. #18420
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    So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?

    John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

    And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


    Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce
  46. #18421
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  47. #18422
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?

    John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

    And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


    Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce
    On the most basic level, wanting to mutilate your genitalia is likely to be highly correlated with mental illness. With that having been said, I completely support people having the right to do that if they are screened for mental disorders, etc., before the fact to protect people from themselves. They do it for women who want to have their tubes done (and a number of other surgeries), so I don't see how this is really any different regarding checking for mental health to protect the patient.

    With the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner situation, for example, I think this individual has every right in the world to dress how this individual wants and do present themselves how this individual wants as long as it's done in a responsible way that doesn't hurt other people. With Jenner in particular, I think he went about it in an extremely responsible way with making sure that the kids were grown and able to understand what was going on. What I'm saying is that if you have an eight year old and all of a sudden daddy is mommy, there's a good chance that it's going to inflict some kind of harm on the kid's psyche. I also think that people need to understand that what this person did cost over $4 million, so results may vary.

    If someone wants to live their lives as a member of the opposite sex, then I think he or she should have every right to do that. However, if they look ugly and fucked up because they don't have $4 million to pour into it, then I think other people should have every right to point that out and treat them accordingly. If a person does decide to do this kind of thing and ends up completely miserable and wants to off themselves, then good for them. If it makes them super happy and keeps them from offing themselves, then that's cool too. It's not really any of my business at this point until I start getting discriminated against over it.

    In terms of sexuality, I went on multiple dates with someone who identified as being transgender around eight or nine years ago. I called this individual she because that was the individual's preference, and I was being respectful of that, but the fact of the matter is that anyone would have called this person she if you saw her out in public. There was nothing atypical about seeing this person compared to the dozens of females I've been out with, and if I had met her in public without knowing she had a penis, then I would have had a hard time picking up on it from appearances/behavior. I even stopped seeing her because she was batshit crazy, which has happened several times with females, so it was just another bitch to me.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 07-12-2015 at 08:27 AM.
  48. #18423
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post

    John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

    And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


    Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce



    Louis Theroux did a new docu on transgender kids. Interesting, but not much of an eye opener for me. I think that if I woke up with a vagina tomorrow I'd be bummed out for a while but then I'd just roll with it. But then that's not really something you can really judge without experiencing it. I only became more aware of it when Scarlett came on the scene in sc2. She was easily the top foreigner, meaning non-korean, in sc2 for a while. And when you see her you don't think: that's a weird looking dude. It's just some girl. Some girl that gets a horrendous amount of harassment on social media for being a guy. It's ridiculous how much these people get bullied. That alone makes me want to step back and make it none of my business.
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  49. #18424
    If I woke up with a vagina I wouldn't be unhappy about it until I was bored of playing with it, which would probably take months.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  50. #18425
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    So, transgenders. Is this just pc bs, or should I actually support them?

    John Oliver says I should. But it just seems so bizarre. His episode on it didn't seem like it had any teeth either, and other proponents don't really have much to say other than "I feel like the wrong sex". Isn't this just genetics? I can't exactly go around saying I'm a giant living in a short guy's body...that's insane. Some pepole have naturally weird hormone levels, and genitalia that is naturally fuck ed up, but even then...you aren't somehow a different gender.

    And what does a different gender even mean? Surely girls don't all wear dresses, nor wear lipstick, nor pee sitting down. Men don't all drink beer, like sports, and say "dude". So feeling "like a woman"....huh? Its ok to like opera as a dude, you aren't somehow an actual real life girl now because of it.


    Add to that studies about suicide rates post-op, and studies that say these feelings completely vanish 80% of the time....and it all seems like pure applesauce
    I've seen a lot of ladyboys in asia, but other than that I don't have much personal experience with TG people. It seems fairly harmless to accept them into society. I draw the line at having taxpayer dollars pay for their reassignment surgery, personally. There's nothing about gender identity that requires having matching genitalia and hormones, TG people are living proof of that.

    Yeah I think its easy to look at this as being PC liberals going one step further, but the key distinction is that TG people aren't forcing anything onto anyone, they're just trying to be the way they are. Contrast with the current liberal Islam apologism which is definitely an example of it going too far to accept a clear threat to western culture as we know it.
  51. #18426
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    Trans people are real. Your brain mismatched with your body. Life is gonna be rough. I'll do a little not to pile on but making it work is primarily on your shoulders. And because I'm not trans and any kids I might have are overwhelmingly unlikely to be trans, I don't really care.
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  52. #18427
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    I don't see how people can embrace transgender people as being a real thing while simultaneously rejecting the notion that gender roles are based in nature. (not aimed at anyone in particular, especially anyone from FTR)

    If their brains make them want to act in certain ways because their brains are naturally [gender A], then that means [gender A] has a natural fucking gender role.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 07-12-2015 at 02:07 PM.
  53. #18428
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    If their brains make them want to act in certain ways because their brains are naturally [gender A], then that means [gender A] has a natural fucking gender role.
    I... think... I agree with this.

    However you feel, and whatever your package, that's a recurring role in nature.
    Unless you claim to be a mutant.
    In which case... don your spandex and be the superhero the world needs.

    I also agree that they can do whatever surgery they want to themselves.

    I think using tax dollars to subsidize cosmetic surgery is a bad idea.
  54. #18429
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    I don't see how people can embrace transgender people as being a real thing while simultaneously rejecting the notion that gender roles are based in nature. (not aimed at anyone in particular, especially anyone from FTR)

    If their brains make them want to act in certain ways because their brains are naturally [gender A], then that means [gender A] has a natural fucking gender role.
    Because they don't give a crap about the truth of the matter, so they'll reject the notion of a gendered brain. Or embrace some neural-fluidity in structure.

    Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.



    They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). “It’s the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised,” Guillamon says.




    In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). “Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female,” says Guillamon.


    https://www.newscientist.com/article...-on-brain-scan
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-12-2015 at 04:57 PM.
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  55. #18430
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    So, i hope its clear that im super anti bullying and heavily into a "do what you want, but leave me alone" attitude. I asked this question because 1) this threadneeded a bumb, and 2) I'm unsure of whether the State should act.

    Anyway, i Just found out one of my fiance's friends, whom I've met on a few occasions and has a few kids, is a post FtM.

    Didn't know that. Feel like he should be allowed in guy bathrooms too. Fiance explained the friend's feelings as "looking into a mirror, and seeing the wrong face". That shits creepy, but it does away with this "what is male" stuff. I can totally getbehind that too.

    It's a close friend of his, so I didn't press deeper, but I'm still questioning whether this is a mental health defect that should be treated or embraced. Anorexic people see the wrong face too, but I wasn't about to sleep on the couch by raising that point.

    @rilla: I'm hopeful that there is some evidence that this is a thing, but the study doesn't seem like a whole lot right now. Small sample sizes, no discussion of how white matter behaves in patients with mental health issues, and more. Still, I'm hopeful. It's a great start, and if it's a real thing then early identification would be spectacular.
  56. #18431
    Feel like he should be allowed in guy bathrooms too.
    I guess FtM is female to male. I don't see what the problem with him using dude toilets. In fact it would be inappropriate for him to use female toilets if he looks like a dude, it would freak the women out if he used the lady's. People use the toilet to urinate, not to look at dicks or whatever a homophobe thinks a non-straight or non-normal person is doing in the toilet. I haven't got a problem with women using the men's toilets if the queue is too long for theirs and they're desperate, so I haven't got a problem with woofters or transgenders or whoever using the bogs. If I feel awakward, it's my problem.
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  57. #18432
  58. #18433
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I guess FtM is female to male. I don't see what the problem with him using dude toilets. In fact it would be inappropriate for him to use female toilets if he looks like a dude, it would freak the women out if he used the lady's. People use the toilet to urinate, not to look at dicks or whatever a homophobe thinks a non-straight or non-normal person is doing in the toilet. I haven't got a problem with women using the men's toilets if the queue is too long for theirs and they're desperate, so I haven't got a problem with woofters or transgenders or whoever using the bogs. If I feel awakward, it's my problem.
    It Seattle, plenty of places have signs that read, "MEN (or people who look like men)" and "WOMEN (or people who look like women)" on their bathroom doors.
  59. #18434
    I think in the interest of equality we need more derogatory names for transgenders. There's tons for bummers. I can only think of "tranny" for transgenders. Maybe I'm showing my blissful naivity here. Enlighten me, FTR.
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  60. #18435
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    I thought "tranny" was a transvestite.
  61. #18436
    I guess it works for both.
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  62. #18437
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    It's not bullying just because you hurt someone's feelings. Because I'm sure he won't mind using him as an example as long as I reference weed, if I call OngBonga a welfare queen, that's not bullying. If I told OngBonga in person that I was going to beat the shit out of him if he didn't give me his weed, then that would be bullying.

    We're raising kids to be a bunch of fucking pussies. Violence is the answer sometimes.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 07-13-2015 at 01:28 PM.
  63. #18438
    I believe in gendered brains, but I also think that the differences between women and men are significantly molded by cultural assumptions about gender.

    We think we know all about men and women because we live in a society where the gendered construct is binary. But it's actually not like that everywhere.

    The Fa'afafines are the "third-gender" of Samoa. They are basically recognized as men who are women inside. Fa'afafines are raised as girls from a young age. Samoan society is very much structured around the division of labor in the family and community, and the sort of work you do depends on your gender. Many fa'afafines are boys who exhibited feminine traits at a young age and were raised as girls instead of boys. Some families try to push a son to be a fa'afafine, but, of course, not all little boys take to it. There are some cases where little boys are raised as Fa'afafines against their will, and, of course, that's really fucked up and damaging for them. Anyway ,Fa'afafines are largely accepted by society. Only a small minority of people actively reject any of their children being Fa'afafine. Also, Fa'afafines are not considered gay, and if a man sleeps with one, he is not considered gay either.

    More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine

    (Of course,Fa'afafines are allowed to party and be promiscuous and flamboyant, while Samoan women are supposed to be modest, conservative, and stay sheltered. Fucking of course, lol.)

    What's insanely fascinating to me is that if you watch them and listen to them, they sound exactly like women. It's really important to keep in mind that "female" or "women" here isn't a universal term. When I say they sound exactly like women, what I mean is, they sound exactly like the people in our society that were raised and identify as women.

    They sound and even look like women, by which I mean that even the ones with more masculine features have facial expressions and dispositions that just make them appear female. Every single nuance in their movement, cadence, voice, everything is 100% feminine. There is a marked difference between them and ultra-feminine gay guys, or even MtF transgendered people, who transitioned later in life but were raised male. There are even fa'afafine who embraced it way later in life, and you can tell. The crucial difference is how you were raised in your formative years.

    It really goes to show you just how much conditioning and how you're raised plays a role in your expression and understanding of your gender identity. The feminine ways I talk, walk, act, think, etc. aren't something I was just born with - I was taught these things through exposure, from being raised as a girl. It's not like we're born with feminine or masculine affectations; we learn these things.

    Of course, this isn't to say that you can raise anyone however you want and they'll turn out that way, like they're some tabula rosa. Like I said, some men were raised as fa'afafine for whatever reason (probably to do with needing more female labor) when it wasn't in their nature, and it was very damaging to them. I would imagine, by the way, that this is how people who feel that they were born in the wrong body feel about their childhoods.

    So much of how we think and act is based on cultural conditioning, and I believe it's truly naive to think otherwise. A lot of the way men and women express their gender comes from what we saw and how we were treated growing up. But I don't think that is mutually exclusive from believing in biological differences either -- hormones are real. Testosterone and estrogen aren't a myth. And sometimes, the way we are raised goes against what is innate in us, a possible indicator that each of us is born with some kind of innate sensibility.

    I think that this cultural conditioning plays a role in body dysmorphia, and the desire of many trans people to change their physical appearance. There are even butch women who, while they identify as lesbian and female, feel uncomfortable with their wide, childbearing hips because it is a signifier of female fertility, and consequently female sexuality, which contradicts their more masculine gender expression.

    And by the way, it's not like trans people have this all conclusively figured out either -- they don't, nor do any of them think they do (ok sure, maybe some do, but must we judge every group of people by their wrongest members?). Nothing you've guys discussed here hasn't been thoroughly discussed in trans spaces, especially academic ones. This may come as a surprise to some of you, but trans people aren't all just willful retards that don't put thought into what gender or sex means. They've thought about everything you've brought up here already, and things you probably haven't even conceived of yet. If any of you have sincere intellectual curiosity about the topic, I can point you to some great texts and authors. I don't expect any of you will, but that won't stop you from pontificating like you've got it all figured out. (it's ok, that's what forums are for.

    this video is a good one just to get a sense of their mannerisms and disposition
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9xvkCa63Js And this one is best for a more educational understanding -- includes a fa'afafine who came to it later in life, as well as a man raised as a fa'afafine when it wasn't in his nature

    eta: Not all self-identified trans people feel the need to ever change their physical appearance. Some do, but not their genitalia or breasts. Also, not all trans people want to "pass" as the other sex, which comes as a huge shock to non trans people (then their heads promptly explode because they can't deal with it or relate to it on any level). There are endless permutations to how different trans people understand and live their experience, which is why it's pretty much impossible to judge the whole phenomenon by any one trans individual.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 07-13-2015 at 03:12 PM.
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  64. #18439
    other thought: I think there is definitely something to be said for the fact that, by and large, most people are comfortable with the sex they were born as, and with the gender expression society expects them to have. So even though I believe that a lot of the affectations and disposition of "male" or "female" or learned and not innate, I believe the propensity for one or the other is innate. The fact that a certain percentage of people do not align with what is expected of them or how they were raised is, I believe, further proof that there is something biological that drives us.

    I mean, really, isn't it the most obvious thing in the world that nature and nurture are working together in mysterious ways we'll never fully understand because none of us will ever, ever be able to look at it from a truly objective standpoint?
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  65. #18440
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    It's not bullying just because you hurt someone's feelings. Because I'm sure he won't mind using him as an example as long as I reference weed, if I call OngBonga a welfare queen, that's not bullying. If I told OngBonga in person that I was going to beat the shit out of him if he didn't give me his weed, then that would be bullying.

    We're raising kids to be a bunch of fucking pussies. Violence is the answer sometimes.
    I agree completely, even without the weed reference. Merely insulting someone is not bullying them. There's obviously exceptions, like mocking a special kid, but generally, kids need to learn to ignore insults. When it comes to threats, it's no good just saying "toughen up" because let's be honest, if spoon does threaten to beat the shit out of me if I don't give him my weed, punching him in the face might not suffice in dealing with the matter. He probably works out. I don't. But I'm still not taking that shit lying down. I'll tell him to come and fucking get it, then kick him in the shin with my steel toecap boot really fucking hard while he's moving towards me and watching my hands, maybe even a cheeky uppercut if he falls towards me, then laugh as he tries to stand upright. I might even rummage around in his pockets to see if he has any money. Cheeky twat.

    Point is, I have a plan. It might not even work, I might still get the shit kicked out of me, but my mentality gives me a chance that faggots don't have.

    Bullies prey on the weak. Don't be weak.
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  66. #18441
    I hope this doesn't actually happen now, because I've given away my defence. Surprise plays a key role in the old kicky shinny trick.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  67. #18442
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I agree completely, even without the weed reference. Merely insulting someone is not bullying them. There's obviously exceptions, like mocking a special kid, but generally, kids need to learn to ignore insults. When it comes to threats, it's no good just saying "toughen up" because let's be honest, if spoon does threaten to beat the shit out of me if I don't give him my weed, punching him in the face might not suffice in dealing with the matter. He probably works out. I don't. But I'm still not taking that shit lying down. I'll tell him to come and fucking get it, then kick him in the shin with my steel toecap boot really fucking hard while he's moving towards me and watching my hands, maybe even a cheeky uppercut if he falls towards me, then laugh as he tries to stand upright. I might even rummage around in his pockets to see if he has any money. Cheeky twat.

    Point is, I have a plan. It might not even work, I might still get the shit kicked out of me, but my mentality gives me a chance that faggots don't have.

    Bullies prey on the weak. Don't be weak.
    The bold is probably the funniest thing I've ever seen you say. I don't know why it struck me as being so funny except that I do not work out very often (or at all at this point).

    There was a kid who lived on my road growing up who was in kindergarten here (age 5-6). He was the grandson of a very well-respected dairy farmer who was loved in the community for being a very solid older man who had contributed a lot to churches, charities and a lot of other shit. This man was raising his grandson after his daughter and her husband (the boy's parents) died somehow or another.

    His grandson was being legitimately bullied on the school bus by a guy in the 5th or 6th grade (age 11-12) who was obviously too big for him to take on in any reasonable fashion. They had a meeting with the bully's parents and all of the normal stuff you would expect, but nothing really changed. This went on for a couple of weeks.

    One day the little boy got on the bus and sat in his normal seat. His bully, who sat a couple of seats behind him, leaned up and smacked the kid across the back of the head.

    As per his grandfather's instructions, the little guy proceeded to take half of a broken brick out of his bookbag, walked the few steps back to the bully and cracked him right in the fucking face with it repeatedly until someone pulled him off.

    Little man was suspended from riding the bus for a couple of weeks as punishment, and his granddad had no problem taking him to school in the mornings instead. He also took him to see some movie he wanted to see as a reward for getting his balls up and standing up to the much larger bully in the scenario.

    The bully's parents were pretty pissed, but there wasn't a lot they could do about it. Little man didn't get bullied by this kid anymore afterwards.

    I just felt like sharing this story.
  68. #18443
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    This is also related (and hilarious to me).
  69. #18444
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  70. #18445
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    I don't take to the cultural influence ideas because, personally, I've never experienced it. Culture for me is commercialism. My parents were lassie-faire, so was my extended family, so were my teachers, friends, their parents, everyone.

    I wonder if I were born a girl, if that would have been the case.

    edit: maybe sports and school. Compete, keep a schedule, be responsible, be productive, etc etc. That's probably where culture got me.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-13-2015 at 06:14 PM.
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  71. #18446
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I don't take to the cultural influence ideas because, personally, I've never experienced it. Culture for me is commercialism. My parents were lassie-faire, so was my extended family, so were my teachers, friends, their parents, everyone.

    I wonder if I were born a girl, if that would have been the case.
    This response leads me to believe you have no idea what I mean by cultural/societal conditioning. You grew up around other people. You're not exempt.

    Edit: I have no idea if your response was to me lol, a lot happened in this thread. Also sorry if it sounded a little mean, not intentional
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 07-13-2015 at 06:23 PM.
  72. #18447
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    Yeah, it was. If you're talking about culture influencing me so subtly, then why not call it life experience?

    Culture influence to me sounds purposeful. The culture wants to assimilate you.
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  73. #18448
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    Awww, a girl has an opinion.
  74. #18449
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Yeah, it was. If you're talking about culture influencing me so subtly, then why not call it life experience?

    Culture influence to me sounds purposeful. The culture wants to assimilate you.
    From day 1 we take cues from the people around us on gender (as well as, well.. pretty much everything else). You are raised as a boy so you take cues from the men in your life, or that you see on TV, on the street, wherever. Their mannerisms, affectations, disposition etc mold you, inform your understanding of what it means to be male.

    You are assimilated into "manhood" by virtue of growing up and being raised as a man by other men who were also raised the same way. If you listen to audio recordings of people speak, you can tell, virtually every time, who is a man and a woman. This is not simply because of the register of their voice, it's because of subtle things like cadence, inflection, and intonation. Same with gait. Posture. Various affectations of the body and face.

    These are things we absorb from an early age. Did you read my whole post? Fa'afafines are an excellent example of this. They are raised as girls and in turn come off virtually the exact same as females in the affectations I mentioned above. Watch the videos.

    No one lives and grows in a bubble unless you literally are taken away into captivity and raised in a bubble. Generation from generation, we grow up and are shaped by what we see, and how we are treated. It's not some intentional conspiracy, it's just the nature of the beast.

    The conclusion I reached for myself was that the propensity for feeling comfortable with a certain end of the masculine/feminine spectrum is innate, while the actual way we learn to be perform those identities is a social construct.


    This is very, very interesting, and I think you will find it thought-provoking at the very least. Also has homeboy Thaddeus Russell:

    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 07-13-2015 at 06:53 PM.
    Free your mind and your ass will follow.
  75. #18450
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Awww, a girl has an opinion.
    I know, I'm very cute. Thanks for noticing.
    Free your mind and your ass will follow.

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