The Official MMA thread.

[wufwugy]

I hear tell that submission attempts are notoriously underrated by American judges (maybe all judges), and I know that several posters here think that judging needs to be fixed. What do you think the problems are and how do you fix them?

The first places I would personally look are things along the lines of calling split decisions draws, or eliminating round by round scoring in place of something like who came the closest to a ktfo moment or who looked like they would win under infinite rounds. These are just brainstorms, and could easily be bad ideas

[BankItDrew]

These are just brainstorms, and could easily be bad ideas

Don't set yourself up for being knocked down, or for being too humble.

I like the way the judging is scored right now - damage first momentum second.

I see submission attempts as missed punches or kicks. They didn't do any damage, and often the person attempting the submission often exerts more energy than the defender.

I certainly want to do away with draws though. There needs to be overtime!

[spoonitnow]

I hear tell that submission attempts are notoriously underrated by American judges (maybe all judges), and I know that several posters here think that judging needs to be fixed. What do you think the problems are and how do you fix them?

The first places I would personally look are things along the lines of calling split decisions draws, or eliminating round by round scoring in place of something like who came the closest to a ktfo moment or who looked like they would win under infinite rounds. These are just brainstorms, and could easily be bad ideas

A lot of people think that the 10-point must system is horrible for MMA, but what they really have a problem with is that the judges almost never score close rounds as 10-10 (which is allowed). Damage should not be considered (and is not) the #1 criteria for judging. That is reserved for trying to end the fight, which damage is not a clear indicator of. The biggest problem for MMA judging in North America right now is that a lot of the judges aren't qualified for their jobs (ie: they come from boxing, and there is no program in most states to train judges for MMA yet).

Additionally, submission attempts are underrated by most Americans, not just the judges. Like BankItDrew just said, he sees a missed submission as a missed punch or kick, but it's much more critical than that. Being very close to being submitted is much closer to being rocked on your feet because that's how close it is to a fight being ended. This misunderstanding comes from a lot of things, but mostly a lack of knowledge about ground fighting, grappling and submissions, and our omfg instant gratification culture.

[spoonitnow]

I like the way the judging is scored right now - damage first momentum second.

That's not like how it's judged at all but I don't feel like editing my above post again. Go here and educate yourself http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/mma...iteria-598818/

[BankItDrew]

Thanks for the link.

So here's my updated detailed scoring:

Rounds 1 - 3: 30% Cerrone grappling effectively, 70% Henderson striking effectively

Rounds 4 - 5: Cerrone kicking Henderson's ass, but not hard enough for a 10-8

[wufwugy]

A post from Shitdog. I am looking forward to watching Pudz smash come December

******

A short interview with Pudzianowski's coach which I have hastily translated.

What kind of student is Mariusz? Does he listen to you, or maybe quite the opposite?

Honestly, I haven't expected it would be that smooth.
Back in the day I was the coach of Pawel Nastula. He always knew everything better. When I asked him, what would he do if someone mounted him and started pounding away, he answered that there is no chance of that happening, because he's too strong. And what? First fight, the Brazilian mounts him and gnp's.
With Mariusz there weren't any problems of that kind. He knows that he has to learn a lot. He listens. Not because I'm such a great coach, he just realises how much effort is needed to enter the ring and win.

What are your expectations of Pudzianowski? Will he be at least decent?

Oh, he will. He has everything to become a champion. I'm not saying this to get on his good side, that's how it actually is.
He's explosive, strong, flexible. He knows boxing and kicks, despite his size, at head level! Additionally, he's good at tackling opponents and holds his own on the ground. He learns really fast. Despite having only 2 months until the fight, we'll make it!

How did your collaboration start?

Somebody referred Mariusz to me and it went from there. I told him on our first meeting - I don't know everything, but I know people who do.

And who does?

To achieve success in MMA you have to learn from the best, to benefit from their knowledge. And I'm doing exactly that.
On my invitation Mario Sukata [TL note: Mario "Sukata" Neto, currently at Wolfslair Academy, it was not individual training but a seminar], who is an MMA legend with a few champions in his team, spent 2 days with Mariusz.
And soon we will welcome the recent ADCC champion, another Brazilian, Fabricio Werdum [TL note: I believe this will be also only a seminar].
Apart from that we have a great wrestling coach, a former US collegiate champion [TL note: 2004 197-pound division NJCAA champion] and an equally good boxing coach Jacek Kucharczyk [TL note: former national boxing champion, former european chmapionships medalist]. Mariusz listens to them carefully and learns. He'll be a champion!

What do those foreign stars think about Mariusz?

That he has potential and - God forbid - you cannot waste it. It's important to train smart.

Who will win the fight on 11 December - Pudzianowski or Najman?

Mariusz would win with him even if he didn't train at all. We respect the opponent, but Pudzianowski is far better. Of course, there is always the risk of some injury, Mariusz will stuble and twist his ankle or maybe Najman will get a lucky-punch in, but that would have to be an unlikely twist of fate.

[wufwugy]

lol



It will soon no longer be called zulu'd but called roger'd

[spoonitnow]

Damn Nastula was beating Barnett until he got caught.

[wufwugy]

If Machida loses tonight I will eat my own shorts

[Luke999]

Woo it's on in a few hours.

[BankItDrew]

This is my first ever PPV Purchase for a sporting event. STOOOOOOOOKED

If Machida loses tonight - I'll give the first person to post a link to the results $20 to their Stars account.

[bigspenda73]

nm I suck at rick-rolling

[bigspenda73]

boooooooooooooooring

sorry if that offends the non-casual fans, but that fight isn't why I watch MMA, I don't care if it was a technically-blah-blah-blah fight by Rua, just painful to watch the last ~3 rounds.

Also the early stoppage in the previous fight sucked as well

[bigspenda73]

oh wow screw job by the judges, Rua clearly won 4th/5th rounds, which means that they think Lyoto won the first 3 rounds? I think not.

[BankItDrew]

To beat the champ - you have to win decisively.

I was ready to ship funds but I guess not.

[wufwugy]

Fuck this noise. That was the biggest draw in the history of the universe. Complete utter bullshit. Both were amazing, but neither won that fight

The judges personal margin of error is higher than the difference between those combatants. That was a draw all day, and if anything I would have rather seen Rua take the win just to spice things up. I'm glad he looked phenomenal though. He's srsbsn, but didn't think it was going to be that close. His preparation and game plan was perfect.

And Rogan needs to shut the fuck up. I could barely understand him with all that Shogun jizz streaming down his throat. "Oh man another leg kick! OMG another leg kick OMG slurp slurp I luv u Shogun". Except that half of them didn't land and the other half were met by Machida counter.

[spoonitnow]

49-46 Shogun imo

[dthorne04]

LOL ROBBERY ITT

[Lukie]

49-46 Shogun imo

agree, i said 4-1 at the end and i thought it was pretty clear.

complete utter crap

[wufwugy]

[Luke999]

When the commentator said a few times about the whole "to be a champion you have to clearly defeat the champion" is that actually a rule or something?

I'm rather new to MMA but it seemed an ok fight, the commentator did seem to get hard over every leg kick. Machdia did hit Shogun many times at the same time which seemed to be ignored by mr "omg leg kick" and he got some decent knees in.

But overall Shogun seemed to be slightly better.

[Lukie]

let's be real, shogun beat the shit out of machida. everyone in the crowd knew it, everyone where i was at knew it, shogun knew it, and machida knew it. that's why he was acting like he had lost after the fight and was obviously surprised when he won the decision.

[dthorne04]

let's be real, shogun beat the shit out of machida. everyone in the crowd knew it, everyone where i was at knew it, shogun knew it, and machida knew it. that's why he was acting like he had lost after the fight and was obviously surprised when he won the decision.

x10000

lol@every major MMA outlet going either 49-46 Rua or 48-47 Rua and the three ringside judges somehow award Machida a UD

such robbery

[bigspenda73]

let's be real, shogun beat the shit out of machida. everyone in the crowd knew it, everyone where i was at knew it, shogun knew it, and machida knew it. that's why he was acting like he had lost after the fight and was obviously surprised when he won the decision.

x10000

lol@every major MMA outlet going either 49-46 Rua or 48-47 Rua and the three ringside judges somehow award Machida a UD

such robbery

I don't know much about judging, but some of this has to boil down to the judges watching the fight live and not on TV, angles and whatnot. I'm certainly not defending this decision, as I fee like most Shogun won the fight.

[wufwugy]

Man this is a clusterfuck. The entire problem stems from the scoring system, and the lack of declaring draws.

Shogun did not beat the shit out of Machida. Not even close. They both fought amazingly, and neither dominated at any moment. Not only does it seems that everybody has forgotten that Machida always *looks* like he's losing until he streams together a successful barrage, but everybody also disregards the fact that their margin of error on both perceiving the fight and what actions warrant what kind of scoring is higher than the difference between these combatants.

This was ridiculously close. This is not point fighting, but you wouldn't know that if you attempt to score the bout based on points and round by round. Changing just one iota of how the battle is scored changes the entire outcome. For example: Shogun had two takedown attempts, but they were stuffed; Shogun initiated several clinches against the cage, but did nothing with them. Now, how do you score this? Do you give Shogun the points for attempting a takedown (aggressor, Octagon control, etc), do you score points for Machida for stuffing Shoguns attempts, or do you call it draw? How this is scored is very important because the smallest alteration in philosophy completely changes the final outcome

I could have easily scored this 5-0 Machida, and easily 5-0 Shogun. The problem is that we all have huge egos and think that our highly inefficient brains can tackle a one time, real time analysis of an insanely close fight, full of incredible dynamics in which neither combatant ever got rocked, ever gassed, or ever had the clear upper hand

Shogun did get robbed, but not because he didn't get the W, but because he got the L. This was a draw all day long. People are mad, and rightfully so. Neither fighter earned the decision, yet one fighter has suffered because of it.

I hope that Shogun wins the rematch simply because he was robbed, but also if it means that he will fight Anderson.

Also, IMO, Neer also got robbed. Tibau took him down several times, but did absolutely nothing with them, and Neer promptly got back up. I'd have to watch this fight again to be sure. As far as I'm concerned, takedowns mean nothing. Not awarding points for takedowns would benefit the sport as well since it would not dissuade striking or pulling guard as easily.

I also completely disagree with fights going to decision. Not only is point scoring in this insanely elaborate sport retarded, but round by round scoring also deteriorates from the fight. What if Fighter A wins the first 4 rounds but then Fighter B rocks the crap out of Fighter A in the end of round 5, looking for the TKO, but gets stopped by the clock. Who wins? According to points it's Fighter A, but according to reality it's Fighter B

IMO, draws should be announced much more often, and the only times we should be seeing victories and defeats declared via decision is if the dominance is very clear, something like Velasquez vs Rothwell but for all 3 rounds. Which brings me to how awesome Cain looked. His fight with Lesnar is going to be amazing. His wrestling is superb, and if everything they say about his cardio is true, it'll be a fucking war.

Anyways, attempting to score Machida/Shogun accurately is a joke. I mean, c'mon, just rewatch the fight. Neither fighter had the edge on offense or defense or countering or preemption. The only difference is that Machida's style looks like it's losing because it's a bunch of dodges, mainly counterstriking, and a few short preemptive strikes. Because Shogun's defense was good enough, Machida could not capitalize the same way he did against Thiago and Rashad, but Shogun also did nothing. He got Machida to slightly change his stance because he was throwing lots of low kicks. Whoop de fucking do. Machida got hit with a few power strikes, but so did Shogun. Did anybody notice those two times that Shogun was closing in on Machida, but gets completely reversed and ends up with his own back against the cage? How do you score that? Seriously?

This is one of the closest fights in the history of the universe. I feel sorry for Shogun for getting robbed, I feel sorry for Machida for losing several fans due to Shogun getting robbed, and I feel sorry for the judges being forced to score within a terrible system that often shows its weakness by declaring victories when there were none.

And things that everybody are saying like thinking that Machida *looked* like he thought he loss is just silly. He listens to his corner and they were telling him that he won, his demeanor is normally calm and passive, and even if he was downtrodden, it could easily be because he was saddened that he didn't get a finish or something

[wufwugy]

I don't know much about judging, but some of this has to boil down to the judges watching the fight live and not on TV, angles and whatnot. I'm certainly not defending this decision, as I fee like most Shogun won the fight.

AFAIK, those guys were all at the live event. Doesn't matter though since judging this fight is a joke. Even I thought that if I was forced to claim one fighter had the upper hand (which I don't think is the case), it was Shogun. But after rewatching it, it became very clear that he, in fact, did not ever have it. Machida did extremely well, did a bunch of stuff that nobody in the audience noticed (but maybe the judges did). Things like the two reversals as he was backing up against the cage or completely obliterating Shogun's takedown attempts.

I also think this fight was awesome. This is what they look like when the talent on both sides is at the very top. My previous highest talent-wise was Fedor vs Crocop (or maybe Nog), but this one takes the cake. Vitor vs Anderson will probably tie for highest level of talent in one fight as well, but we'll see

[wufwugy]

Here's an excerpt from a MMAweekly article quoting Dana

Never one to bury his opinion, White didn’t waver in his assertion that Shogun won the fight. However, when he offered a detailed assessment of the scoring, like most who were pressed, he wasn’t far removed from the commission’s judges.

“The first round could have gone either way. I gave the second and third to Machida and then I gave the fourth and fifth to Shogun,” he revealed. “So assuming that Shogun won the first, fourth, and fifth, he wins the fight. Was it a close fight? Yeah, it was a close fight.”

This is a perfect example of cognitive dissonance, which is something that I'm seeing in droves from the fans. On the one hand, they say that Shogun won, but on the other hand, when they are forced to actually qualify that win, it turns into a close as crap fight that could have gone either way

Joe and Goldie were doing it too. In one breath, Shogun was tearing away, but in the other they wouldn't wanna hafta judge it because it's close. Which one is it guys? Because you can't have both.

That was some of the worst commentating I've ever heard on UFC. Fucking Joe screaming about a beautiful leg kick from Shogun yet didn't seem to realize that Machida had actually caught the leg mid-flight and countered with a straight right to the jaw

[dthorne04]

Wuf, you really don't understand MMA at all if you think Neer got robbed. He got tooled so hard in that fight.

[wufwugy]

Wuf, you really don't understand MMA at all if you think Neer got robbed. He got tooled so hard in that fight.

It actually shows that I might know a thing or two about MMA

Scoring for takedowns in MMA is wrong. If it wasn't wrong then it wouldn't be MMA with an elaborate system of both striking and grappling. This isnt wrestling. In wrestling, takedowns deserve points because the fight revolves around that progression. However, in wrestling we see equal points for escapes or reversals as we do takedowns.

Tibau got like a dozen takedowns, all of which *looked* brutal, but none of which did shit. He got out grappled like crazy. Neer was not defending takedowns. His hands were high and he was pressing forward at a quick pace against an opponent whom he knew was taking him down at will. This gameplan opens him up for the easy takedown, and so we should predict to see him getting taken down a bunch. Which we did, but what happens then? Tibau does NOTHING. Neer displayed amazing guard and grappling defense. He didn't suffer one iota of noticeable damage, got up every time (only about 15% of those he was let up), and he scored at least as many strikes from his back as Tibau did. Tibau even got mount, yet lost it with the quickness because Neer was schooling him in grappling. Neer even gave him his back, yet Tibau does zero damage except some awful armbar attempt that didn't even come within a mile of completion.

If anything, Tibau was the one who got tooled. He got a dozen easy takedowns, yet invoked zero noticeable damage on Neer. By the end of the match, Neer was doing the exact same as he was at the beginning. He was a little less gassed than Tibau, and suffered no more noticeable damage.

I'm not saying he won, I'm saying that nobody won. Declaring a victory for a combatant when he does zero damage in a sport that is supposed to be all about damage is loltastic. Awarding Tibau points for takedowns which were handed to him on a silver platter, yet he was completely unable to capitalize on his supposedly advantageous positioning is also loltastic.

Neer did get robbed. Not because he won, but because nobody won. In one breath, fans like to say that MMA is not point fighting, but in the other breath, they support decisions based ENTIRELY on points and have zero basis in showing who the better fighter is. Neer's gameplan obviously involved allowing himself to get taken down a bunch. This only looks like a problem based on arbitrary scoring, but based on the nature of MMA combat, it is not necessarily that way

Landing shots, getting takedowns, basically accruing points means nothing (or at least they should mean nothing). I do not score MMA based on technical points, but on damage. And if anything, when I see a fighter being given super easy advantageous positioning, then getting completely schooled out of it and doing nothing, I'm actually leaning towards the other guy

[bigspenda73]

ya I noticed Rogan was too busy creaming over the kicks and missed a few shots by Lyoto

[Galapogos]

And things that everybody are saying like thinking that Machida *looked* like he thought he loss is just silly. He listens to his corner and they were telling him that he won, his demeanor is normally calm and passive, and even if he was downtrodden, it could easily be because he was saddened that he didn't get a finish or something

Haha this is so true. He looked like he thought he lost the fight before he stepped in the ring. Just like every single other fight he's in.

Speaking of Machida, did the camera man screw up who he was in the dressing room at one point? I was in a bar so didn't get any sound, but the camera guy had a shot of some guy slightly off camera, his brother dead centre, and then him slightly off camera on the other side. Unless they were dedicating a 5 minute segment about his brother, it was a pretty funny fuck up.

[wufwugy]

^ I missed that part



Too bad they didn't show Hardonk/Barry on PPV. That fight was pretty great

http://mixedmartialartvideos.com/pat...video-ufc-104/

[wufwugy]

Saku vs Zelg was also awesome

http://www.mmatko.com/kazushi-sakura...ideo-dream-12/

[dthorne04]

hi i'm wufwugy

[Luco]

I have very recently started watching MMA, do you guys have any recommendations for past fights I should see?

[spoonitnow]

I have very recently started watching MMA, do you guys have any recommendations for past fights I should see?

Off the top of my head for entertainment value and/or good fights: Tito Ortiz vs Frank Shamrock, Wanderlei Silva vs Yuki Kondo, Fedor Emelianenko vs Mirko Crocop, Mark Kerr vs. Paul Varelans, Bas Rutten vs Masakatsu Funaki (the 2nd time they faught), Wanderlei Silva vs Kazuyuki Fujita. There are tons and tons of good fights that have happened, but that should get you started.

[bigspenda73]

easily my fav. Fedor pic

[wufwugy]

I have very recently started watching MMA, do you guys have any recommendations for past fights I should see?

Mark Coleman vs The Ropes is pretty much the only fight you need to see

[wufwugy]

brocks out

hes ducking carwin obv

[wufwugy]

Upon second viewing, I noticed a substantially larger number of exchanges like this (where in real time, to the naked eye, it looks like Shogun performed the best, but in reality Machida did)



I seriously cannot believe all the hysteria among fans. So many people are acting like Machida is garbage and Shogun schooled him. That's not even close to true.

[spoonitnow]

I do not score MMA based on technical points, but on damage.

That's cool in wuffyland but that's not how it's judged irl.

[Lukie]

Serious ideas:

Damage taken should be partially taken into account, just like it would be in any real fight. Actually, just scratch the whole system. I will be the ref and official overseer. The three judges will be replaced by the five largest men from a local tavern. They should probably have a side event going on like a drinking contest.

Anyway, if the five drinking contestants cannot come to a unanimous decision at the end of 5 rounds, the fight continues indefinitely, until a unanimous decision is reached. After 12 rounds if the fight is still not concluded, each contestant is given their choice of a sword and a shield, or a large battle axe. Then it's sudden death 'overtime'.

problem solved

[dthorne04]

machida got the best of that exchange?

[wufwugy]

Absolutely

Shogun throws a leg and Machida tags the chin and goes for a trip which immediately puts Shogun on the defensive. While both parties did land a shot, Machida displayed the control over the exchange. Counterstriking is not about defending a strike then throwing your own (which looks to be what most fans think), but about using your opponents offense as an opening to implement your own attack strategy. This is pretty much Machida's entire game, and always has been.

Analyze that gif. Immediately upon Shogun throwing his leg, Machida dives into the offensive, and Shogun is forced to fall back. This is exactly what one of the judges said was an important factor in scoring the 'Octagon control' aspect of judging in Machida's favor. Even Joe missed it. At the exact moment he was screaming about how awesome of a body kick Shogun threw, yet he completely missed the fact that even though Shogun did initiate the exchange, he lost control immediately after initiation

[wufwugy]

I have very recently started watching MMA, do you guys have any recommendations for past fights I should see?

IMO, when it comes to new fans, highlight videos are important. I've posted a few really good ones earlier, but here are a couple of pretty much the best I've found

Best HL video of anything ever of all eternity foreverlasting everness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVVrN...er_profilepage

Why We Love MMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK-Im...er_profilepage

And seriously one of the most superb works of art I've seen. All MMA ref cam and a profound theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFP4v...er_profilepage

[Luke999]

Upon second viewing, I noticed a substantially larger number of exchanges like this (where in real time, to the naked eye, it looks like Shogun performed the best, but in reality Machida did)



I seriously cannot believe all the hysteria among fans. So many people are acting like Machida is garbage and Shogun schooled him. That's not even close to true.

There was a few moments like this I thought when I watched the fight but at the time I felt kind of like "huh" because all I heard was OMG AMAZING BODY KICK, LOOK AT THOSE RIBS, THERE IN A WORLD OF HURT.

Left me scratching my head like a noob

[Luke999]

Best HL video of anything ever of all eternity foreverlasting everness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVVrN...er_profilepage

feature=player_profilepage

Holy shit I didn't realise he punched THAT fast. FML.
ps: any videos of Fedor vs good counterstrikers, just curious because he seems to leave himself rather open on the attack

[wufwugy]

There was a few moments like this I thought when I watched the fight but at the time I felt kind of like "huh" because all I heard was OMG AMAZING BODY KICK, LOOK AT THOSE RIBS, THERE IN A WORLD OF HURT.

Left me scratching my head like a noob

Here's another example of Machida's superb counterstriking and completely reversing Shogun's initiative which it seems that almost every fan didn't even notice.



And, IMO, here's the main difference between Machida's fight with Shogun and his fights with Rashad/Thiago. Shogun's defense was excellent, and it effectively neutralized Machida attacks.







Machida fought exactly like he did against Rashad, Thiago, and Tito, etc. But because Shogun successfully adapted to that style, we didn't see Machida KTFO his opponent like normal. However, that adaptation was not enough to turn the tables. IMO, this fight was an amazing display of the two best neutralizing each other

Will be interesting to see the adaptations for the rematch. As far as I can tell, two things that Machida needs to improve upon are protecting his chin when he's inside and checking leg kicks. They say his stances are fantastic for fighting from the outside and landing blows from the inside, but Shogun awesomely adapted to that by going heavy on the low kicks and protecting his chin when Machida would go for the kill ala Rashad. I'm neither a fighter or coach though so I could be way wrong. Just a fan who loves analyzing fights

[wufwugy]

Holy shit I didn't realise he punched THAT fast. FML.

I found myself cross checking against the raw footage, clocks, and audio because some of the video seems like it's in fast-mo

ps: any videos of Fedor vs good counterstrikers, just curious because he seems to leave himself rather open on the attack

I'm pretty sure there's not. He said his toughest opponents were Crocop, Arlovski, and Nog, but none of those guys are as good of strikers as some guys found at lighter weight classes. I actually think that a big reason for Fedor's dominance is the fact that he is really a LHW who doesn't cut. Heavyweights are most often burdened by mass enough that their speed drops. Fedor is one of the fastest partly because he's one of the smallest. He's also claimed that he prefers fighting the big guys. In some ways, it's just easier to control them since they're slow. Which is kinda funny that he's fighting Rogers, who is probably one of the slowest guys Fedor will have ever fought.

Fedor even looked to have serious problems exchanging with Lindland. It only lasted for a couple seconds, but Lindland simply being much smaller than the norm for Fedor meant that he was also faster. Fedor has improved his standup a ton since then though, I think.

Here's a video of Aleks training. Fast forward to 4:50 to watch a minute of Fedor and Aleks boxing. I'm not sure when this was, but I think mid 2009. Fedor looks pretty fantastic, at least when compared to MMA heavies. Wouldn't be surprised if Fedor could pull an Anderson on Griffin against Rogers and his super slow, bulky haymakers. Rogers may be smart enough to come in lighter in this fight, though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_fOp...er_profilepage

On that note, I think that Fedor's toughest fights could possibly be at LHW. That's hard to quantify, though, just a guess. The thing is that speed kills, and it's the only thing that Fedor has shown to have a real problem with. Also, I think that if Fedor goes to UFC, Junior dos Santos would possibly be his biggest threat. UFC has a bunch of big, strong HWs, but the way to dethrone Fedor will come from a guy as fast or faster than him IMO. Everybody wants to say Lesnar, but seriously, quantify that. How exactly is Lesnar supposed to dispose of Fedor? Instead of losing, Fedor would probably tool him. Just look at Lesnar vs Couture. Pretty competitive fight, Lesnar was showing signs of gassing in the second round, and Fedor is like Couture 3.0. Velasquez would probably even be a tougher battle

[dthorne04]

gg thread