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Numbr2intheWorld
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02-22-2007, 06:18 AM
Post subject: Just an observation, take it how you want...
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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When i first joined FTR i absolutely loved it. Everyone was quick to answer my questions and people gave really great insights that improved my game markedly. And i'd like to thank everyone for this.
However, and this is just my opinion, i've just noticed how the effort to help people has gone down. A lot of posters have stopped explaining their assertions and going more deeply in the subject. In almost every post i see the short answer "i call" or "i fold", but although these answers are helpful, they are not even close to as helpful as they could be. By just taking a few minutes explaining yourself you can help other players tremendously.
It's possible that i just am overlooking these explanations because they seem so obvious to me; i'm not a n00b anymore. I'm just wondering if anyone shares my sentiments or has anything to say about them.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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You're not the first to post about the "declining ftr" and you won't be the last. I think you're just losing your noob status.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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No.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Have you ever tried typing out a long paragraph such as
"we should never fold KK preflop because
1)......
2)......
3)......"
about 150 times? It gets pretty tedious.
It's just the cycle of FTR. New players come in and ask dumb (reletivly) questions. Medium players answer the dumb questions till they get pissed off repeating themselves. Medium players progress onto 2 word answers because they are bored. Medium players get good and stop posting (ie repeating themselves) because there is not much for them to learn from FTR any more. More noobs join and the old noobs progress up to medium players level.
Rinse and repeat x100
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Here's an example of what i'm talking about:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-50924.htm
The first 5 replys to his post are one post from Renton (BTW Renton i like your posts a lot usually) that gave his opinion, but was not in depth at all, and four just spewy posts (some of which i don't even get because they seem like insults). Then finally my brother posts something that actually says something and sauce defends himself more; and then people start talking. If i was Sauce though, i might just get really upset over the first few posts.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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threads like that happen every so often and will probably happen more and more as FTR grows. I don't think it's a huge deal.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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search some of my older posts (older then a couple months for sure), there are some really good ones and I think some of the thought processes that I spelled out in some in particular are gold honestly. FWIW, I'm not going to say that I currently would agree with everything I've posted in the past (who would?), but whatevs. It's the thought process and the outside the box thinking that is a lot more important.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Since my response is included in the 5 posts you're talking about, I'll respond here.
1.) A new poster that puts an expletive, disguised or otherwise, in the subject line of his very first post on FTR is basically suspect. If he wants respect, he should treat the forum with respect, and work on expanding his vocabulary.
2.) Hand is presented in OP without preamble and the vaguest of reads, which had to be expanded greatly later to justify the play. He did use the converer though, which is nice to see.
3.) None of the responses are that bad. I've seen much, much worse, have received much, much worse and expect to see much, much worse in future. In fact, my response is not insulting at all and says exactly why I don't like the play, succinctly.
4.) Don't expect FTRers to write more than a line or two responding to brand new posters until we know more about them and they have earned some respect.
5.) Just because your brother likes the play doesn't make it good.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
You're not the first to post about the "declining ftr" and you won't be the last. I think you're just losing your noob status.
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I would add more, but there's really no need to.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Since my response is included in the 5 posts you're talking about, I'll respond here.
1.) A new poster that puts an expletive, disguised or otherwise, in the subject line of his very first post on FTR is basically suspect. If he wants respect, he should treat the forum with respect, and work on expanding his vocabulary.
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Me too.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,041
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
but whatevs.
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
but whatevs.
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ha (done intentionally)
also, I'd like to point out that I gave that thread a pretty decent response.
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Seasider
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bangor UK
Posts: 563
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
It's just the cycle of FTR. New players come in and ask dumb (reletivly) questions. Medium players answer the dumb questions till they get pissed off repeating themselves. Medium players progress onto 2 word answers because they are bored. Medium players get good and stop posting (ie repeating themselves) because there is not much for them to learn from FTR any more. More noobs join and the old noobs progress up to medium players level.
Rinse and repeat x100
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.....Until the games all get massivly tougher than they were before; and then the US government makes it really tricky for new beginners to get their money in the system!
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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1 - try writing out really detailed threads and you will get better responses. seems obvious but no one really does this
2 - like irish said, people make one of these posts once every couple months. just a cycle, whatever.
3 - i gotta keep my wpp low.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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you should have made seperate posts for that one gabe, lotta words there
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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commune doesnt count, but good point
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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oh yeah I shoulda known you had it under control. Sorry for doubting you
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Here's an example of what i'm talking about :
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-50924.htm
The first 5 replys to his post are one post from Renton (BTW Renton i like your posts a lot usually) that gave his opinion, but was not in depth at all, and four just spewy posts (some of which i don't even get because they seem like insults). Then finally my brother posts something that actually says something and sauce defends himself more; and then people start talking. If i was Sauce though, i might just get really upset over the first few posts. |
these posts are pretty rare, and warpe said the rest.
When your first post is a squeeze preflop play with T2 in one of the more tough games in online poker how do you expect regulars to act?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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One more thought on this. I've said it elsewhere and I'll repeat it here...
When you are responding to a post one of the best things you can do is to just say enough to direct the discussion and OP's thinking process in the direction you think it should go...AND NO MORE. If OP asks for more explanation then, by all means, respond, but this game is all about making correct decisions and players only get better when their decision making process does, so help them arrive at correct decisions but don't spoonfeed them the answers.
It took me a while to realize this, but what finally brought it home to me was a response to one of my early HH posts by Fnord, where he gave me one of his Fnordish one-liners, something like, "I like where you got to but not how you got there," then he left me to stew. Bastard.
That was the day my whole approach to this game changed.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
One more thought on this. I've said it elsewhere and I'll repeat it here...
When you are responding to a post one of the best things you can do is to just say enough to direct the discussion and OP's thinking process in the direction you think it should go...AND NO MORE. If OP asks for more explanation then, by all means, respond, but this game is all about making correct decisions and players only get better when their decision making process does, so help them arrive at correct decisions but don't spoonfeed them the answers.
It took me a while to realize this, but what finally brought it home to me was a response to one of my early HH posts by Fnord, where he gave me one of his Fnordish one-liners, something like, "I like where you got to but not how you got there," then he left me to stew. Bastard.
That was the day my whole approach to this game changed.
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That's a great explanation, Warpe, thanks. I completely get what you are saying. I guess, for me, i just want to know what people think right away without having to prod it out of them. But the short posts may be a better way to learn.
Quote:
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2.) Hand is presented in OP without preamble and the vaguest of reads, which had to be expanded greatly later to justify the play. He did use the converer though, which is nice to see.
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Yes, Sauce's post was pretty much just a HH to begin with, and some explanation right away would have been nice (although he did explain it later), but i've noticed, personally, that when i give a long preamble/explanation i get fewer posts and less words. Although this probably is just an illusionary correlation, my point is that it doesn't make a difference.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
No.
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meh
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Sykedupp
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
No.
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meh |
unnnh
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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should we sticky this? It seems like I see this thread more than "should I fold KK pre-flop" anymore (every 4 months or so).
Maybe start an "intermediate digest"
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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I remember when I first found FTR a couple summers ago. I had posted a situation where I was really frustrated in a low limit game. It was the standard newbie thinks better players make for an easier game senario. My final post in the thread was just "Thanks for the slap, Fnord."
Those short answers from Fnord, Lukie, etc. force us into a higher consciousness.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Some hands have pretty cut and dry answers that have been discussed to death. Or involve a very common misconception and we're not going to respew the entire argument every time someone new comes to the board.
For the interesting stuff, the solution to the hand isn't terribly useful because you'll probably never quite play that same hand again. The better you get at poker, the more data you have and the more true this becomes. Furtheremore, the correct answer might be something like usually do X, but sometimes do Y. If I never looked someone up with a luke-warm hand or raised with total air, my behavior would be too predictable and exploitable. Hence, it's not about the answer, but learning the correct questions and throught process to quickly come up with a good answer to entire catagories of similar poker problems.
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