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BennyLaRue
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01-12-2009, 08:11 PM
Post subject: Jim Rice, WTF?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
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http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof09/...ory?id=3827833
I'd rather have Tim Raines than Rice, who is one of the most overrated players in history. Congrats to Rickey though. I can't believe 28 guys didn't vote for him.
Baseball in the Commune, FTW!
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
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I am the greatest!
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
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didn't read the article, but didn't Rice get snubbed by a few votes last year and this is his final chance? If so, give it to him. Raines will get it eventually.
Now if we want to talk about who should be in the HOF, lets get Charlie Hustle on there as a write in!
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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allabout
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Jim Rice one of the most overrated in history? Really? Why? He was a career .300 hitter and one of the guys pitchers really didn't want to face in his day.
Can't hide my obvious Red Sox bias, but really? Tim Raines over Jim Rice? Make a case...
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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Don't get me started on the bullshit that is Hall of Fame Voting, especially in baseball.
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bode
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Straight Flush
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PETE ROSE I TELL YOU!!!!
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I'd vote for Rose over all these wannabe's
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triumphant cracker
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
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rice is awesome /case.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
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The fact that there were 5% of voters who didn't vote for Henderson proves that the whole process is a joke.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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It's ridiculous that there will never be a player voted unanimously into the HOF.
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bode
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
It's ridiculous that there will never be a player voted unanimously into the HOF.
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jeter?
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
It's ridiculous that there will never be a player voted unanimously into the HOF.
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jeter? |
*fist pump*
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uscheese
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2006
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jim rice was about as dominant a player as could be in his time...definitely HOF worthy.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
It's ridiculous that there will never be a player voted unanimously into the HOF.
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jeter? |
*fist pump*
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nope
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LOL OPERATIONS
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
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lol @ suggesting Jeter will be 100%. He's the most overrated player in baseball.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
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benny is obv yankee fan with head up ass
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LOL OPERATIONS
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allabout
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 276
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I agree its a total joke. Woulda said Roger Clemens mighta been near 100% but that ship has sailed. So ya, I don't know if anyone ever will be. Baseball as a whole has sooo many problems, the HOF voting is just another to add to the pile.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allabout
Jim Rice one of the most overrated in history? Really? Why? He was a career .300 hitter and one of the guys pitchers really didn't want to face in his day.
Can't hide my obvious Red Sox bias, but really? Tim Raines over Jim Rice? Make a case...
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Tim Raines over Jim Rice is nothing but personal choice. I liked Raines a whole lot better as a kid.
As for Jim Rice being one of the overrated in history, absostinkinlutely. You're not going to like me writing this if you're part of the Nation, but when looking over his candidacy fairly you have to consider that all the Red Sox hitters from the late 70s (Dewey Evans, Fred Lynn, Rice) had their stats inflated by playing in Fenway. You ever heard of a stat called a Park Factor? It's a way of looking at what runs the teams scored in a particular park vs. all the other parks and determining if it's a pitcher's park or a hitter's park. A score of 100 is neutral, with anything above indicating it's a park favoring hitters and below favoring pitchers. (Sorry for making it basic if you're familiar, I'm not sure who knows what about baseball around here). From 1973 to 1979, Fenway's Park Factor is about 110, clearly in hitter's park territory. And Rice benefitted tremendously from that. Over his career, he hit .320 at Fenway, with a .374 on-base percentage and a .546 slugging percentage. On the road, he only hit .277/.330/.459. That's a huge difference.
Carl Yastrzemski was similarly beefed up by Fenway. I've got no problem with Yaz's election though, since he had huge career numbers. Discount his 3400 hits and 1850 RBI and he's still got huge numbers. Discount Rice similarly though, and his 2400 hits and 1450 RBI look pretty meh. Andre Dawson had 2774 and 1591 and he's even struggling to get in. Dave Parker had 2712 and 1492. Harold baines put up 2866 and 1628. Rusty Staub even had more hits and RBI than Rice in his career. None of those three even sniffed the HOF.
Long story short, dude looks a lot better than he really was because Fenway beefed up his stats.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
benny is obv yankee fan with head up ass
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That was a sarcastic fist pump. I hate Jeter more than I hate cancer.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
It's ridiculous that there will never be a player voted unanimously into the HOF.
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Absolutely. I'm sure that the 28 guys who didn't vote for Rickey chalk it up to stupid shit like "I don't vote for first ballot guys" or "he was a jerk" or "baseball players today aren't like they were 50 years ago" or "I don't vote for leadoff hitters".
Whatever. He was an amazing all-around player who was great to watch.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
It's ridiculous that there will never be a player voted unanimously into the HOF.
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jeter? |
nope, even though I guess he's technically played the game the way it's supposed to be played.
It's crazy that 1-5 writers will take it upon themselves to not vote a certain person in on their first ballot for no fucking reason at all. I'm not sure if the voting is public, I'm pretty sure it isn't, but it needs to become public if it isn't and the writers/voters have to explain their decisions.
Hell Babe Ruth wasn't a unanimous decision, nor was Hank Aaron or Willie Mays or Roberto Clemente or Koufax or Williams or Ryan ETC....
bah
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
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Rice doesn't really belong, there are a ton of hitters of his ilk who never got a sniff of the HOF. On the other hand, there have been some really weak candidates getting in lately...the voters have become an odd bunch, quickly dismissing some guys who deserved serious consideration (Will Clark, Dwight Evans -- compare him to Rice, different players but similar value, Lou Whitaker), while putting in guys like Tony Perez and Jim Rice.
Also, Raines absolutely deserves to be in. He was 99.9% the player Rickey was in his prime, and arguably the 2nd or 3rd best player in the NL during the 1980s.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
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i think i got tricked...
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LOL OPERATIONS
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
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omg admiral ackbar
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
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I assume most posting in this thread are into sabermetrics and know about bbref.com...poker and sabermetrics are sorta the same thing.
edit: oops didn't see Benny posted Rice's home-road stats.
Fenway's much more neutral now; we forget what a hitter's haven it was 30 years ago. These splits are practically Coors-like.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Baudib, judging from your Ackbar comment and bbref, maybe you've spent some time at BTF?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
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yes, I've also written for Hardball Times.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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bode
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Straight Flush
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english only please
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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wesrman
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Full House
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Rickey Henderson is one of my two all time fav ball players. Tony Fernandez is the other. Rickey was an incredible player imo.
I cant wait to hear his speach..lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q1kcftSGug
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wesrman
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Full House
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LOL Rome on Rickey in the HOF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WFW8uO8Jcw
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
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Are you a Jays fan? I loved those 80s-90s Jays teams. I hope Alomar gets in.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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wesrman
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
Are you a Jays fan? I loved those 80s-90s Jays teams. I hope Alomar gets in.
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Ya when i was a kid i was a huge Jays and baseball fan. Sadly i lost interest over the years, but ya those 80s and 90s Jays teams were great. It was a great moment for me when Rickey joined the Jays.
God im laughing so hard at that Rome clip that i can barely type this.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wesrman
Tony Fernandez is the other.
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I went to Tony's last game. I cried like a baby.
Tying the two things together, here's an article that states Tony Fernandez and Jim Rice's careers had about the same value to them, all things considered. Win Shares takes into account stuff like hitter's parks or pitcher's park and discounts appropriately so it's also an expansion on what I was talking about above.
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/601606.html
Sophisticated baseball stats....mmmmmm.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by baudib
Are you a Jays fan? I loved those 80s-90s Jays teams. I hope Alomar gets in.
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The spitter?
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LOL OPERATIONS
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BadAssOutlaw
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 33
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First off.. congrats to Rickey Henderson and those who didn't vote for him, wtf? This is the greatest leadoff hitter of all time.. he changed the game when he was on base.. Tim Raines will eventually, I hope he does..
Jim Rice... I was on most everyone elses side saying that I felt he was deserved and thought he should be in... Then Benny was asked to make a case AGAINST Jim Rice and I think he did just that... everything in this paragraph i agree with:
"Carl Yastrzemski was similarly beefed up by Fenway. I've got no problem with Yaz's election though, since he had huge career numbers. Discount his 3400 hits and 1850 RBI and he's still got huge numbers. Discount Rice similarly though, and his 2400 hits and 1450 RBI look pretty meh. Andre Dawson had 2774 and 1591 and he's even struggling to get in. Dave Parker had 2712 and 1492. Harold baines put up 2866 and 1628. Rusty Staub even had more hits and RBI than Rice in his career. None of those three even sniffed the HOF.
Long story short, dude looks a lot better than he really was because Fenway beefed up his stats."
I know Jim Rice was a feared hitter, but these are some other good names here and they should be in before Jim Rice.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Rice's problem is he was really done as a great player after age 26, and was finished early. If he could have maintained that 77-79 level a few more years, he'd be right up there. He was still a great RBI guy cuz he had Boggs/Evans in front of him, but with his low OBP and humongous DPs he was making a shitton of outs -- 515 (!) in 1984.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
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hopefully Andre Dawson gets in
always loved watching him for some reason
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
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Hawk's OBP is even worse than Rice's, but I think he's a better candidate. He was legitimately great as a center fielder for a few years and a great baserunner.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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Jack Sawyer
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
It's ridiculous that there will never be a player voted unanimously into the HOF.
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albert pujols.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
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manny?
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LOL OPERATIONS
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Jack Sawyer
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no, manny has to many manny-isms.
pujols is straight up piss-your-pants-pitcher scary. and can field properly.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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Silly String
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
pujols . . . can field properly.
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and multiple positions too.
Parting thought: The Hall of Fame needs to be defined just as much by who isn't in it as who is. Jim Rice needs to be another Andre Dawson, elevating the level of play required to make it in to the HOF.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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