|
Lukie
|
04-29-2008, 04:30 PM
Post subject: It's been a while since we've had a good debate.
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
My proposal:
Only taxpayers (i.e. those that are employed, report income, or own property) should be allowed to vote. The reasoning for this is that most people contribute to society via paying taxes. Thats how our entire system works. You don't contribute? You don't vote. It's that simple.
I think society would be much better off like this; of course, it makes far too much sense to ever be implemented.
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Also, as plainly stated above, this might not be perfect. I do think that the spirit of what I'm trying to say would be an improvement over our current system though.
|
|
|
|
flomo
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
|
|
how about if you show up you get to vote
only about 10% vote as is
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
|
|
|
WillburForce
|
|
Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
|
|
how about the English decide whoes the next president? Then you might not end up with a retard like Bush running your country? 
|
|
|
|
gabe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
|
|
if only people that paid taxes got to vote, soon the law would be changed so everyone else would have to pay taxes and only the non tax payers would get to vote
|
|
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
how about you make voting a legal requirement based up on having to pay tax to qualify
|
|
|
|
pgil
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gabe
if only people that paid taxes got to vote, soon the law would be changed so everyone else would have to pay taxes and only the non tax payers would get to vote
|
exactly.
|
|
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
|
|
pgil
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
|
|
also, a much better democratic system would be to have more than 2 viable parties, since they eventually become essentially the same party and leave voters with no real choice.
|
|
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gabe
if only people that paid taxes got to vote, soon the law would be changed so everyone else would have to pay taxes and only the non tax payers would get to vote
|
I don't follow.
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pgil
also, a much better democratic system would be to have more than 2 viable parties, since they eventually become essentially the same party and leave voters with no real choice.
|
I do agree with this, but I see it as an entirely different issue altogether.
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by WillburForce
how about the English decide whoes the next president? Then you might not end up with a retard like Bush running your country? |
Well, I can't defend Bush as a president, but I equally couldn't justify electing a president based on the English's best interest as opposed to our own best interest.
|
|
|
|
pgil
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gabe
if only people that paid taxes got to vote, soon the law would be changed so everyone else would have to pay taxes and only the non tax payers would get to vote
|
I don't follow. |
It means if you only let a limited section of the populace vote, and their interests more or less lie in the same direction, then they will elect people who are going to push through laws that will benefit them to the detriment of the rest of society. In this case by shifting the tax burden to the underprivileged while also removing their ability to vote and thereby stopping them from any legal recourse at changing the system that oppresses them.
|
|
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
No representation without taxation? Isn't that backwards?
This thread sucks, btw.
|
|
|
|
will641
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
|
|
this is a pretty silly question. its just really impractical. i understand what you are getting at, basically you are saying you only want responsible people to vote, correct? yes that would be nice.
|
|
Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
|
|
b-rabbit
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: virginia
Posts: 207
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
This thread sucks, btw.
|
grandpa speaks the truf
|
|
do the right thing.
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
It means if you only let a limited section of the populace vote, and their interests more or less lie in the same direction, then they will elect people who are going to push through laws that will benefit them to the detriment of the rest of society. In this case by shifting the tax burden to the underprivileged while also removing their ability to vote and thereby stopping them from any legal recourse at changing the system that oppresses them.[/quote]
Shifting the tax burden to the underprivileged wihle also removing their ability to vote does not apply to my proposal. Those that have any tax burden are the ones who are able to vote.
We could make some exceptions. Two that I propose: full time college students or people otherwise 'training' for a career, and retired people. I'm not overly cruel. My idea with this wouldn't be to create an elite upper class, but to attempt to create some real motivation to those who are a burden to society. You know, like an able-bodied adult that can work but choose not to, and instead live off the government (read: us).
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Quote:
|
It means if you only let a limited section of the populace vote, and their interests more or less lie in the same direction, then they will elect people who are going to push through laws that will benefit them to the detriment of the rest of society. In this case by shifting the tax burden to the underprivileged while also removing their ability to vote and thereby stopping them from any legal recourse at changing the system that oppresses them.
|
Shifting the tax burden to the underprivileged wihle also removing their ability to vote does not apply to my proposal. Those that have any tax burden are the ones who are able to vote.
We could make some exceptions. Two that I propose: full time college students or people otherwise 'training' for a career, and retired people. I'm not overly cruel. My idea with this wouldn't be to create an elite upper class, but to attempt to create some real motivation to those who are a burden to society. You know, like an able-bodied adult that can work but choose not to, and instead live off the government (read: us).[/quote]
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
No representation without taxation? Isn't that backwards?
This thread sucks, btw.
|
Cool. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution.
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by will641
this is a pretty silly question. its just really impractical. i understand what you are getting at, basically you are saying you only want responsible people to vote, correct? yes that would be nice.
|
I fully acknowledge that this is impractical and will likely never happen in this country in the future.
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
No representation without taxation? Isn't that backwards?
This thread sucks, btw.
|
Cool. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. |
Think about my first paragraph a bit more and you'll realize that it is.
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
No representation without taxation? Isn't that backwards?
This thread sucks, btw.
|
Cool. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. |
Think about my first paragraph a bit more and you'll realize that it is. |
Taxation without representation is far different than representation without taxation. Not that it would necessarily lead to a different conclusion, but I'm sure a smart man like yourself could come up with a far better argument to refute my proposal than that.
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lukie
You know, like an able-bodied adult that can work but choose not to, and instead live off the government (read: us).
|
Do you know any of these people "living off the government"? It's a lot harder than you might imagine.
|
|
|
|
will641
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
|
|
i actually agree with you lukie, despite how unrealistic it is. i didnt read everything you said, so not sure if this was said already. our elected officials are paid by tax payers. tax payers give them the money necessary for all their programs. why should people who dont pay taxes get a say in who is in power?
another way of looking at this is, if a corporation is holding a share holders meeting, should people who dont own shares be able to voice their opinions?
|
|
Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
|
|
Pythonic
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by will641
this is a pretty silly question. its just really impractical. i understand what you are getting at, basically you are saying you only want responsible people to vote, correct? yes that would be nice.
|
In simpler terms: you mean only the educated.
|
|
|
|
Ragnar4
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
|
|
Wait a minute?
Name one person that votes and doesn't pay taxes? Because last time I checked you had to be a registered voter, and in order to be a registered voter had to be a card carrying american, and all card carrying americans, pay taxes.
|
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
|
|
will641
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Pythonic
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by will641
this is a pretty silly question. its just really impractical. i understand what you are getting at, basically you are saying you only want responsible people to vote, correct? yes that would be nice.
|
In simpler terms: you mean only the educated. |
no. just because you are educated doesnt mean you are responsible. and ragnar, there are tons of people that dont pay taxes. just look at wesley snipes  . and i dont know what the number is, but if you make a low enough income you dont pay income tax.
thats another thing, what kind of tax are you saying you should be paying in order to be a voter lukie? income tax? property tax?
|
|
Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Everyone pays taxes, but not everyone pays the federal income tax. The poor still pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, gas tax, phone tax, etc.
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
I'm not sure I had thought this idea out as well as I had originally thought. I have to go out for a bit but I'm going to think about this more later and we'll see what I come up with.
|
|
|
|
Ash256
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
|
|
One's financial contribution to the governmental system is a byproduct of contribution to society, and not a contribution in itself.
Implementing the idea that everyone gets exactly the same amount of say in how the country is run regardless is a contribution to society.
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lukie
I'm sure a smart man like yourself could come up with a far better argument to refute my proposal than that.
|
Your idea is patently absurd so I don't think it needs refuting but, fwiw, you're proposing taking away the only political power poor people have to improve their circumstances. That's where terrorists come from.
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
to clarify, I didn't propose taking away the right to vote from poor people. Poor people without a job (or more ideally, ones that *won't* get a job) is a different breed.
Like I said, there are a ton of holes in my idea (that's an understatement). I still think the general principle is solid. Maybe I'm just spoiled and selfish though, I'm not sure. still need to think it over.
take this scenario: an able-bodied 30 year old male lives in his parent's basement. he mooches off the government and the people around him. he doesn't have a job nor is looking for work nor is going to school or getting training for a job. yet he has the same amount of 'say' in government as someone who immediately pays a large portion of his/her income to the government. i don't like that.
Quote:
|
Maybe I'm just spoiled and selfish though, I'm not sure.
|
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
Ok scratch this one. I lose. Next one won't be so easy.
I still agree with the spirit of what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure it's practical whatsoever or fair.
|
|
|
|
Ash256
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lukie
take this scenario: an able-bodied 30 year old male lives in his parent's basement. he mooches off the government and the people around him. he doesn't have a job nor is looking for work nor is going to school or getting training for a job. yet he has the same amount of 'say' in government as someone who immediately pays a large portion of his/her income to the government. i don't like that.
|
Tell me about this guy and/or other people you've met who do this.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
