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silu73
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03-22-2010, 03:01 AM
Post subject: I would like to welcome the USA!
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Welcome USA! You are now part of a majority of nations that does have universal healthcare and is still democratic. Funny that.
I would have loved to debate Healthcare Reform in the US if most of the counter arguments wouldnt have been so untrue, childish and plainly fearmongering.
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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yeah...it's funny how the most popular rebuttal to all of these CRAZY left wing social reforms is "can you imagine a US where we sink to such socialist debauchery?"
the simple answer would be, "yes, it's called countries like denmark, sweden, etc. countries with higher qualities of life," but of course it's political suicide to regard ANYTHING that comes out of europe as even remotely decent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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The thing is that we don't have universal healthcare. What we have is a sorta-kinda gov't intervention in how health insurers can do business. Which is beneficial but there's no public option, no single-payer, no medicare buyin; and the only way it really covers 30 million more Americans is by telling 30 million more Americans to buy health care coverage. I'm not a fan of the bill, but I support it as a good first step.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The thing is that we don't have universal healthcare. What we have is a sorta-kinda gov't intervention in how health insurers can do business. Which is beneficial but there's no public option, no single-payer, no medicare buyin; and the only way it really covers 30 million more Americans is by telling 30 million more Americans to buy health care coverage. I'm not a fan of the bill, but I support it as a good first step.
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/thread
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU First time some of my money goes to cure a Raiders Fan's Herpes.... A piece of me will die.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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MSG85
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Two Pair
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
The thing is that we don't have universal healthcare. What we have is a sorta-kinda gov't intervention in how health insurers can do business. Which is beneficial but there's no public option, no single-payer, no medicare buyin; and the only way it really covers 30 million more Americans is by telling 30 million more Americans to buy health care coverage. I'm not a fan of the bill, but I support it as a good first step.
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Yup.
Although, this bill was pushed against so hard and took so long to get done, that I doubt we'll see further reform anytime in the near future.
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MSG85
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Two Pair
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU First time some of my money goes to cure a Raiders Fan's Herpes.... A piece of me will die.
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If you're currently insured, it probably already has.
That is assuming herpes is curable of course.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG85
If you're currently insured, it probably already has.
That is assuming herpes is curable of course.
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sarcasm fail ITT
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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The bill is probably a bit better than liberals think. They seem to be making mistakes of getting caught up on a government insurer.
What this bill appears to attempting to be doing is using the auto insurance paradigm for health insurance. All private enterprise, all gov't mandate; and it works very well for auto. The problem, though, appears with the pre-existing condition thing. Auto and health 'pre-existing conditions' are entirely different, and according to some who have crunched the numbers, under this new bill it is far cheaper to not buy insurance until you get sick because you cannot be denied coverage after sickness appears and the penalty for no coverage is pretty impotent.
If this is true, it will need to be fixed. I'm not entirely convinced that we need publicly run insurance because proper regulations on private industry can get the job done. It just appears that there is a huge loophole in that regulation on the consumer side. But I have a feeling that will get plugged because if it is indeed true and exploited, it will cause a shitload of problems. There also may be a boon to not getting a public option inasmuch as more US funds get put into US development of cutting edge medical tech. I'm not sure about that one because I'm not entirely sure of all those who create tech in that field. It is something that I've seen several sources claim to be true though
This is actually a pretty fucking huge victory. Administration costs for insurance are crazy high based simply in denying coverage after sickness appears, and thus pumping up collective cost due to hospitals not turning people away
I haven't spent nearly as much time looking at health insurance issue as I have some other political issues, so I could be making some mistakes and would like to hear what somebody who knows more has to say.
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MSG85
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Two Pair
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
sarcasm fail ITT
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Too subtle for me.
With all the vitriol spewed upon this bill I just can't tell anymore.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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nice post rilla
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bode
nice post rilla
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agreed
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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What would Glen Beck do!?!?!?!?!?!
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LOL OPERATIONS
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Penneywize
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 885
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Speaking as someone who's lived his entire life in a country with universal health care - just pray this reform doesn't extend beyond what's already been done. Public health should act as a safety net and nothing more -- if that.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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wow how is shep still even on fox. he must get some pretty good ratings for them to not have pulled the plug yet
YouTube - Steele: Yes, Health Care Reform Is Armageddon
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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lol. Steele: why's it [calling it armeggedon] so surprising to you? (i mean that quote's hilarious enough by itself, but i'll continue anyway)
Shep: because i've read about armeggedon and that seems a little extreme
Steele: imagine you're looking at it from a small business owner's perspective.
Shep: but small business owners are getting a tax break under this legislation.
Steele: yeah but, yeah but...C'MON MAN!
my dad's a small business owner, and he was jumpin' up and down when this passed. because his business has <50 employees, this legislation essentially pays for his employees' health benefits, and since he had to give health benefits with or without this bill, pretty much ANY increase in taxes isn't a humongo burden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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http://i.imgur.com/590Ev.png <--- Clever link, do click.
{edited to link pic - a500lbgorilla}
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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can someone explain concisely how the US system worked and how it has/will change?
Am I right in thinking that you needed to be insured, which then kicked in if you fell ill?
Or could you just go to any Dr and pay to be seen, like a shop type thing?
What happens if you say got run over, but don't have insurance or any money - do you still get an amberlamp and that?
(and yes I could google, look on Wiki, BBC etc, but I prefer the great knowledge of FTR!)
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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Insurance was not mandatory, now it is.
Without insurance no one could possibly pay the medical bills for any but basic treatment, so the just going to the Dr and paying up option was more of a theoretical option for most. If you got run over without insurance, you were pretty much sol.
This was not a healthcare reform bill, it was a health insurance reform bill.
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
If you got run over without insurance, you were pretty much sol.
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what you mean sol?
if you did get run over, assume they'd take you hospital etc for free (?), but say you need to have a leg removed or you will die but can't afford/don't have insurance, would you just be left to die? Or is it left with a charity or something?
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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If you didn't have insurance and had an emergency, that would be taken care of...but you'd be probably be hit with some sort of outrageously high medical bill.
If you had insurance and some kind of emergency, the insurer would concoct some kind of excuse not to pay and you'd be hit with some sort of outrageously high medical bill.
It was a mess.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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There's a whole lot more going on than I can explain, but I can give a simplistic illustration of probably the most significant abuse...
If you had insurance and got sick, insurance agencies would often jump through loopholes to dump you. This in turn causes massive debt and often bankruptcies for the individual as well as all that money busily paying for the insurance premiums before the illness effectively was gifted to the multi-billion dollar insurance businesses. This, as well as many poor or just lower middle class who couldn't afford insurance, made a paradigm in which they don't go to the doctor when they start feeling sick, or when they feel sicker, or when they feel even sicker all because they can't afford the payments, but what happens is that eventually they get so sick they go the emergency room, hospitals will not turn them away, and hospitals very often have to absorb the costs of treatment, but not just any treatment - extremely expensive treatment
All this combines into dramatically increasing premium costs for the collective, decrease in coverage for the 'insured' and further income inequality by giving even more greenback blowjobs to our super wealthy corporate overlords.
On a different note, I'd like to say that this is a sort of shrouded victory. Not only does the US live in a bubble, but the first world lives in a bubble. The majority of people on this planet are in such dire situations that they can't even get emergency care. In the US alone, under this bill, there are about 10 million of the lowest class that are being swept under the rug, and that's only a fraction of those on the globe who go without care. I think that if we stepped outside our bubble and tried to apply the best of our UHC to the entire planet, we'd find that even the #1 ranked system (France) fails abysmally at covering all while moderating cost.
This is a good step in the right direction, but it is only one inch in a marathon. A marathon that I don't think the human race will ever complete anyways
Where's sarbox?
I wonder what Obama will focus on next. Probably a jobs/energy bill. Would be great to see just as we get our first positive employment numbers, he hits jobs hard for a second time. I doubt he's gonna go after Wall Street yet, and I kinda doubt he will go after them hard at any point anyways. That fight would be about 10x harder than the insurance companies for no reason other than the mathematical wizardry that goes into developing and exploiting loopholes and dark areas of finances. That'll be a very interesting fight if it happens, but I kinda doubt it ever happens. While the Dems have been very pro health reform for a long time, they've actually been on the side of an enormously strong Wall Street since at least Clinton
What I wanna see is some huge tax reform. Make those shitheads who bank over 1MM annual profit pay a crapload more. Everybody complains about welfare for the poorest of the poor (thanks Reagan), but don't realize that the amount of money put into welfare is merely a fraction of a fraction of that which is shoveled into the wealthy via forms of 'trickle-down' or corporate welfare. The trillions that the banking industry stole in just the last decade could pay for food and shelter for the poor for like 500 years or some stupid high number.
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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What this bill basically boils down to is a watered down compromise of the plans that very originally conjured up. No single payer, no public option, nothing unusually "socialistic" whatsoever. In fact it's so watered down, that pretty much everyone hates it. The right says it's still a radical commie coup, the left (and frankly anyone with half a brain) thinks it's not nearly enough for any meaningful savings. It's been criticized for not being bipartisan, but it's hard to have a dialogue when the other party calls it an evil nazi communist plan that takes away all freedoms of the people, creates death panels where they decide when they'll kill your grandma and will cause taxes to multiply like rabbits. All of the circus surrounding the talks were publicity theater, where even though the bill is actually quite close to what the republicans were suggesting, their only comments were along the lines of "we need to throw this bill in the trash and start from a clean slate". Pure populism. And finally, even this poor excuse of a bill only just passed after Obama made a last second executive order to exclude paid abortions from it to please some pro life nutjobs. Heil healthcare.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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^ It is, however, pretty good with regards to that which is politically viable
Stolen from diff board
Quote:
Democrats: "We need health care reform"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! Give us a majority and we'll do it better"
Democrats: "Done, you have majority of both houses"
12 years later, health care is irrefutably worse in every respect for every single person in the United States
Democrats: "We need health care reform"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! Americans are tired of partisan politics!"
Democrats: "OK, let's compromise"
Republicans: "OK, get rid of half your ideas"
Democrats: "Done"
Republicans: "Too liberal, get rid of half your ideas"
Democrats: "Done"
Republicans: "Too liberal, get rid of half your ideas"
Democrats: "Done"
Republicans: "Too liberal, get rid of half your ideas"
Democrats: "Done"
Republicans: "Too liberal, get rid of half your ideas"
Democrats: "Done. Time to end debate"
Republicans: "Too liberal, we need more debate, we will filibuster to prevent you from voting"
Democrats: "OK, we'll vote--sorry guys, debate is ended. It's time to vote on the bill"
Republicans: "Too liberal, we vote no"
Democrats: "OK, it passed anyway--sorry guys."
One month later
Republicans: "Wait--wait, OK, we have less of a minority now so we can filibuster forever."
Democrats: "Sorry, the bill already passed, we need it to pass the House now"
Republicans: "But we have enough to filibuster"
Democrats: "Sorry, the bill already passed, we need it to pass the House now"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! You haven't listened to our ideas! You've shut us out of this whole process!"
Democrats: "Sorry, show us your proposal"
Republicans: "Smaller government"
Democrats: "That's not very specific"
Republicans: "OK, here's our detailed proposal--It's our common-sense ideas we spent 12 years not enacting"
Democrats: "OK, we'll add a bunch more of your ideas"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! You included all these back-room deals"
Democrats: "OK, we'll get rid of the back-room deals"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! You're using obscure procedural tricks to eliminate the back-room deals!"
Democrats: "No, we're using reconciliation, which both parties have used dozens of times for much larger bills"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! You're pressuring Congressmen to vote for your bill! Scandal!"
Democrats: "It's called 'whipping', it's been done since 1789"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! Can't you see the American people don't want this?"
Democrats: "This bill is mildly unpopular (40-50%), doing nothing (your proposal) is extraordinarily unpopular (4-6%)"
Republicans: "We need to start over! We need to start over!"
Democrats: "We should really consider voting--"
Republicans: "Liberal fascists! Start over! Clean slate! Common-sense! America!"
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
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The rebuttal: http://i.imgur.com/aiOko.png
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillburForce
what you mean sol?
if you did get run over, assume they'd take you hospital etc for free (?), but say you need to have a leg removed or you will die but can't afford/don't have insurance, would you just be left to die? Or is it left with a charity or something?
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I have seen surveillance footage in which an old lady is simply dropped off on the curb, in hospital pajamas and all.
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
I have seen surveillance footage in which an old lady is simply dropped off on the curb, in hospital pajamas and all.
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well ya, without reform the hospitals were in a really shitty situation, either they have a heart and end up folding, or they have to kick people out so that they can stay in business. But its definitely a slippery slope once you begin to let your morals slip..
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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All seems very odd, I just can't imgaine life without an NHS.
I've had to make an appointment just today - and I'm booked into my local doctor for after work, the same day I rang in and it costs me nothing (obv I pay my taxes). No wait, no costs.
Good friend of mine got knocked off her bike by a drunk driver and had a bad head injury and fractured spine (plus mulitple less severe injuries). This was in the middle of nowhere in the country (Kent - about 150miles from London) - she got airlifted within 20mins to a special unit in London and had emegrency op and miraculouly she survived and is doing well.
All care, rehab, physio, follow-ups are all free and she was operated on by one of the top surgeons in the country.
Brits who moan about the NHS, should actually think about how good it really it and how lucky we are.
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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That's more or less the situation in all 1st world countries, bar the US.
Where American Health Care Ranks in the World: The Facts About the United States Standing in World Health
Comparing International Health Care Systems | Online NewsHour | October 6, 2009 | PBS
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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The media will have you think that it takes 45+ days for a doctor's appointment with universal healthcare.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I don't think the whole "we're 37th in health in the world" statement holds a lot of water. Our health is shitty in this country because we're fat pieces of gluttonous shit. Not because we don't have good enough health care.
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CoccoBill
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finding my game
Posts: 423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I don't think the whole "we're 37th in health in the world" statement holds a lot of water. Our health is shitty in this country because we're fat pieces of gluttonous shit. Not because we don't have good enough health care.
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I believe there are overweight people outside the US. The US healthcare system is quite good if you have access to it, it's just that in no other civilized country such a huge percentage of the population don't.
France best, US worst in preventable death ranking | Reuters
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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Us americans are the most healthy on the the planet, it is just that our health care sucks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
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sure there are overweight people outside of the us, but renton is right here, every time i go to europe i am shocked by how many less fat people i see. everyone is skinny over there!
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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China is getting fat now though, thanks to their recent swell of wealth.
Diabetes Reaches ?Epidemic Proportions" in China, Study Finds ? NTDTV.com
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Both are right. The WHO stopped ranking countries because it's too complicated, anyways
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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The strangest hangover cure ever? An informed discussion between Alan Grayson and a pretty cute Teabagger.
YouTube - Informed Debate on Health Reform. Tea Bagger vs. Liberal Congressman
edit Reddit seems to laugh that she wants to pay 150% just for being a women, but if women cost 150% more to treat, her point is valid.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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it could also be argued that people are fatter in this country because preventative medicine is seldom practiced. If we all had health care and regularly visited our doctor who told us "hey fatty, youre getting fatter, and youll be diabetic soon if you dont start doing x, y and z." Then maybe we would be less fat (or catch cancer sooner, or whatever) and therefore our health care would rank higher.
So while it may be a "chicken or the egg" thing, I think it makes the most sense that we will have a more healthy country when more people have healthcare, thereby making our health care system run smoother.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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