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I was colluded against and pokerstars wont help!

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loanhorse

10-07-2005, 06:15 AM Post subject: I was colluded against and pokerstars wont help!

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 212

MY original email to pokerstars:

>Check that game # in subject line. John198 and matchstick31 are
playing
like colluders. Look at this hand for example. Also when there in pots
with eachother there checking really fast, I think they have some
connection possibly
>
>
>: Stars Game #2744313621: Tournament #13470526, Hold'em No Limit -
Level
III (25/50) - 2005/10/06 - 23:59:57 (ET)
>Table '13470526 1' Seat #3 is the button
>Seat 2: snakekilla88 (2120 in chips)
>Seat 3: tedDel21 (1450 in chips)
>Seat 4: john1931 (3460 in chips)
>Seat 8: matchst1ck (1970 in chips)
>john1931: posts small blind 25
>matchst1ck: posts big blind 50
>*** HOLE CARDS ***
>Dealt to snakekilla88 [Kc 8s]
>snakekilla88: raises 100 to 150
>tedDel21: folds
>john1931: calls 125
>matchst1ck: calls 100
>*** FLOP *** [7s Qh Qs]
>john1931: checks
>matchst1ck: bets 200
>snakekilla88: folds
>john1931: calls 200
>*** TURN *** [7s Qh Qs] [2h]
>john1931: checks
>matchst1ck: bets 200
>john1931: calls 200
>*** RIVER *** [7s Qh Qs 2h] [5c]
>john1931: checks
>matchst1ck: bets 200
>john1931: calls 200
>*** SHOW DOWN ***
>matchst1ck: shows [7h Td] (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
>john1931: mucks hand
>matchst1ck collected 1650 from pot
>*** SUMMARY ***
>Total pot 1650 | Rake 0
>Board [7s Qh Qs 2h 5c]
>Seat 2: snakekilla88 folded on the Flop
>Seat 3: tedDel21 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
>Seat 4: john1931 (small blind) mucked [Ks 4s]
>Seat 8: matchst1ck (big blind) showed [7h Td] and won (1650) with two
pair, Queens and Sevens

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Pokerstars Reply back:

llo ,

Thank you for taking time to report your concerns. We take the
integrity
of our games seriously and appreciate vigilant players who help us
monitor
the games. I have completed my review into the accounts of the
following
players:

matchst1ck
john1931

The first thing that we look for in such cases is a relationship
between
the players.

The players live in different countries, have never shared the same
computer nor have they ever shared an internet connection. There is
nothing else in their profiles that might indicate a relationship
between
these players. In this instance, there appears to be no relationship
between these players.

Next, we look for frequency of play together. We are looking to see if
these players seem to be seeking each other out. Although a high
frequency
of play is not necessarily an indictment, it can be a harbinger of
unethical play. In this case, the players have played in only this one
Sit & Go event together and have never played in a cash game together
on
PokerStars.

One of the advantages of online poker is that there is a full record of
every hand, and after the fact, we can look at the hands with all of
the
cards exposed - including the hole cards. As a result, cheaters cannot
hide what they are doing. In looking at tournament play for collusion,
we
check for such things as:

1) Best hand play, where the "team" only plays the better of their
hands.

2) Softplay, where the "team" does not bet against each other,
regardless
of the strength of their hand.

3) Chip dumping, where the larger stacked player dumps chips to the
lower
stacked player in an effort to ensure in his survival.

After reviewing all hands where they played together, I could find no
evidence of collusion between these players. Hands that may look
suspicious to a player at the table are revealed to us during our
research. Although we cannot reveal the cards of each hands to you, I
can assure you that there was no foul play involved. Calling with a
King
high is not a smart play in most cases; however, it was the only
suspiciously played hand between these players.

Based on my in depth research of these players, there is nothing to
indicate that they are working together. I will however place notes in
the
player's accounts indicating this review and your concerns.

I would be remiss, however, if I did not bring up the matter of your
own
chat. Accusing the players directly at the table can have no
beneficial
result.

First of all, in an environment where there is already concerns about
cheating in different forms, making such comments only serves to
propagate
existing fears. Our team works diligently, investigating collusion
complaints and dealing with the integrity of our site. A lot of that
work
is undone by comments of this nature.

Secondly, you alert the cheats that their play has been observed
allowing
for them to concoct cover up hands to disguise their actions. Whenever
you make an accusation at the table we might as well not review any
further hands in that session as they no longer contain useful
information.

And finally, if the players are innocent, which in the vast majority of
cases they are, you have wrongfully accused two innocent players of the
worst crime in Poker.

In the future, if you see something suspicious, please write an email
to
support@pokerstars.com detailing the player names and any suspicious
hand
numbers observed.

Please do not hesitate to report any concerns you might have about
unusual play to us for review. As you can see, we treat all such
complaints seriously, and will do a full investigation into any such
email. Thanks again for your help in protecting the integrity of the
game
and thanks for your patronage.

Regards,

Patrick K.
PokerStars Support Team

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I am obviously dealing with some top notch colluders. They work with each other across different country's to avoid suspicoun. Playing 12 +1 short handed games, is the perfect buyin to collude to make millions. My money does not feel safe on stars any longer, time to
find a new place, ANy reccomendations?!

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

edudlive

10-07-2005, 06:18 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: 100NL 6max

Posts: 623

rigg3d

(16:02:25) Fleece: u think ur liked now?
(16:02:31) Fleece: that u got real life friends
(16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends
(16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore

vqc

10-07-2005, 06:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 5,427

unm drawing to the flush?

lolzzz_321

10-07-2005, 06:40 AM

#4 (permalink)

NO YOU

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: My ice is polarized

Posts: 2,797

He's soo dunk.

a500lbgorilla

10-07-2005, 11:14 AM

#5 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Continue to email support until those lazy bastards do something about this.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Pingviini

10-07-2005, 11:29 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Bangkok

Posts: 1,090

and their replies are like 2 sentences long.. and they always reply you slowly.. and its rigg3d fo sho!

"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20

Tim Vecchioni

10-07-2005, 02:27 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Maryland US

Posts: 327

lmfao...why would support lie to you about saying this was the first SNG they played together?...let it be...lol funny though

back looking to make some moolah

Greedo017

10-07-2005, 02:33 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot

Posts: 1,461

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Vecchioni

lmfao...why would support lie to you about saying this was the first SNG they played together?...let it be...lol funny though

they want more rake dude! don't get duped!

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

Tim Vecchioni

10-07-2005, 02:35 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Maryland US

Posts: 327

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Vecchioni

lmfao...why would support lie to you about saying this was the first SNG they played together?...let it be...lol funny though

they want more rake dude! don't get duped!

thats it...email support threatening them you will cash out and never play there again...see what they do!

back looking to make some moolah

ekillian

10-07-2005, 04:16 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 235

john1931 thought K hi might be good. This is hand isn't anything close to collusion. I've seen people call down with Q high insimilar situations.

http://www.pscrew.com
http://ekillian.blogspot.com/

a500lbgorilla

10-07-2005, 04:38 PM

#11 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekillian

john1931 thought K hi might be good. This is hand isn't anything close to collusion. I've seen people call down with Q high insimilar situations.

WOOOOOSH

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

loanhorse

10-07-2005, 04:53 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 212

Hello,

To summarise the case again, here are some notable hands:

#2744154945: John limp/folds UTG when Matchstick raises from button

#2744296656: John starts out with a larger stack than Matchstick,
bluffs,
and ends up with an even larger one

#2744313621: Calling with king high isn't neccessarily the wrong
play.
Quite often, players who make this play are reflecting their own
mindset -
they know that they bluff a lot, and so they are more likely to
interpret
another player's bets as bluffs too. John is likely thinking that
Matchstick called a decent preflop raise, and that he's unlikely to be
betting that flop with a queen, a check-raise or slowplay makes a lot
more
sense shorthanded. He's thinking that a seven isn't likely to have
called
preflop, and the 5 then 2 on the turn and river are unlikely to have
improved Matchstick's hand. I'm not going to defend this kind of play,
nor
this kind of thinking, but it's certainly an alternate explanation.
Furthermore, everyone has made a misclick from time to time, and this
is
hardly the most suspicious situation one could occur.

#2744320340: If these two were stack balancing in the above hand, why
do
they immediately return the chips on the next?

You believe that there's a lot of money to be made colluding in the $15
SNG. This may be true, but these two have absolutely no links with
each
other, and have played one event together. They have played 40,000
hands
between them, but only 51 at the same table. There are no suspicious
hands
in the event except from a player calling down with king high. There
are
reasonable alternate explanations for his play there, that's backed up
by
his style of play in other events.

More to the point, the allegation that these two bribed us is frankly
ridiculous. They wouldn't know that they were under investigation - we
don't tell anyone unless we find suspicious hands that we want them to
comment on. Furthermore, we take the integrity of our site very
seriously,
it's a large part of why we are so successful. If we were in the
business
of taking bribes - or doing anything else to undermine the integrity of
our
site, we would not have the numbers on our site that we do today. All
it
would take would be for one person to release evidence on a poker forum
or
newspaper, and we would lose most, if not all of our players. Why
would we
want to let colluders stay on the site for a bribe when it could cost
us
our entire business?

I do agree that there's money to be made in the $15 SNG (I 8 table the
$20
SNG on other sites), but it's hardly going to compensate for the value
of
our business. Furthermore, why would professional colluders play $15
shorthanded? Why not $200 shorthanded?

In any case, as you can see from the above, I ran the same review
myself
for these two players. My results are the same. Based on the lack of
relationship between them, the small amount of play, the lack of any
truly
suspicious hands, and the presence of several exonorating hands, I
conclude
that they are not working together.

I hope that I've set your mind at ease, regarding not only the play of
these two, but also the seriousness with which we take the integrity of
our
site. If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to let
us
know.

Best regards,

Andrew
PokerStars Support Team

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

AFter this email I immediatly cashed out, I dont want to play at a site that does not protect its players.

a500lbgorilla

10-07-2005, 04:57 PM

#13 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

You show the man! How DARE they fabricate such lies about these two colluders! They clearly work FOR pokerstars!

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

DaNutsInYoEye

10-07-2005, 05:02 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 1,921

Quote:

the allegation that these two bribed us is frankly
ridiculous

Good stuff. In all seriousness... I've been impressed by the depth of the responses PokerStars support gives to questions. Initially they may send you a generic response, but if you pursuit a matter further then they are entirely willing to discuss it with you. In my experiences, no other sites have done this.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

ekillian

10-07-2005, 05:13 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 235

loanhorse what's your problem? It wasn't collusion so get over it and quit blaming Stars.

http://www.pscrew.com
http://ekillian.blogspot.com/

Fnord

10-07-2005, 05:18 PM

#16 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I can't believe PokerStars didn't just tell you to fuck off the second time around.

Your behaviour here is excessivly lame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

arkana

10-07-2005, 05:19 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 1,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekillian

loanhorse what's your problem? It wasn't collusion so get over it and quit blaming Stars.

loanhorse

10-07-2005, 05:20 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 212

Maybe I am over reacting, but the evidence provided is far from sufficient.

ekillian

10-07-2005, 05:24 PM

#19 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 235

relax? OK. We're not the ones freaking out and pulling our money of an online poker room because we think they let colluders run rampantly. Face it. Support didn't give you the answer you wanted and you freaked out. Did you even read their response? The guys never played together until then. Also next hand the chips went pretty much back to where they had been before your "cheating" hand.

http://www.pscrew.com
http://ekillian.blogspot.com/

Frizzle02

10-07-2005, 05:35 PM

#20 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 56

This is a joke right?

<------That was my chemistry prof.

lolzzz_321

10-07-2005, 05:35 PM

#21 (permalink)

NO YOU

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: My ice is polarized

Posts: 2,797

It's all a big unfunny joke. We are laughing about it on AIm now.

Theeggman

10-07-2005, 05:40 PM

#22 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 363

The real lesson here is don't raise K8o utg.

I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.

Fnord

10-07-2005, 05:44 PM

#23 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theeggman

The real lesson here is don't raise K8o utg.

Why is that?

Because only better hands call in this game?
Because he only has the second best position in this hand and will probably have the button if called?
Because his opponents are likely to check/raise or otherwise trap him when he misses?

If ever there was an argument for not being a weak/tight nit...
OMG! We're 4 handed and my opponents don't have a fucking clue, time to tighten up and hide in my shell camping big pairs and Ace King (so I can jam it post-flop reguardless of the board.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

a500lbgorilla

10-07-2005, 05:47 PM

#24 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frizzle02

This is a joke right?

It is and was.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Rabid Dog

10-07-2005, 05:59 PM

#25 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 574

loanhorse, I'm thinking what you need to do is get a lawyer and start a class action lawsuit. That way we could all get some free money. This could be better than bonus hunting.

STIdrivr

10-07-2005, 06:00 PM

#26 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Southern california

Posts: 580

He check called with a flush draw till the river and then maybe felt like he was getting good odds to call with a K high.

He also could have just wanted to see the other guys hand. See what he was only betting 200 for on flop turn river, was he slow playing or did he have a shitty hand lke a pair of 7's 10 high?

chardrian

10-07-2005, 06:20 PM

#27 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabid Dog

loanhorse, I'm thinking what you need to do is get a lawyer and start a class action lawsuit. That way we could all get some free money. This could be better than bonus hunting.

Did someone say lawyer??

Dum dum dummmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!! I am a lawyer - chardrian to the rescue!!

And I'm a poor, state-employed lawyer at that looking to make whatever money I can.

Wherefore, henceforth the parties to this action, Flop Turn River, Inc. (hereinafter "FTR") do claim and solemnly swear, under the penalties of perjury and bad beats from rigged sites, that the defendants, PokerStars (hereinafter "PS") allow collusion amongst and within their player affiliates in violation of ___ (this is where I get to do research and bill you a kajillion dollars an hour).

Prayer for Relief

The plaintiffs request monetary damages in the sum of 3.6 million dollars - or maybe we could just get a really nice rakeback.

dalecooper

10-07-2005, 10:01 PM

#28 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It is and was.

-'rilla

My only question is if our hero is or was in on the joke. This thread is comical.

Greedo017

10-08-2005, 12:43 AM

#29 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot

Posts: 1,461

loanhorse - i don't think anyone has seriously responded so far, i'm not sure if you've gotten the gist yet, but nobody really understands your complaint. if this was among a large pattern of suspicious behavior, it would be perfectly understandable. but, i don't understand how you feel their explanation isn't satisfactory. I am almost worried about reiterating, but here goes.

A. They live in different countries.
B. They have never played together aside from in this particular sit-n-go.
C. There is no other evidence of collusion in the sit-n-go.
D. The action that he took in the hand is not unreasonable.

You are taking the same line of logic of someone who flops a set and pushed and gets beat by a backdoor flush. "oh i got party'd again!". If you are the type that thinks cards are rigged and the house is plotting against you, my advice is don't play online, period. Otherwise, take a step back and realize that pokerstars pwned your argument, and move on.

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

a500lbgorilla

10-08-2005, 01:21 AM

#30 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Loanhorse obviously knows it's a joke. Give him a little credit here. No one could be that stupid. Except loanhorse...

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Lukie

10-08-2005, 08:14 AM

#31 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Loanhorse obviously knows it's a joke. Give him a little credit here. No one could be that stupid. Except loanhorse...

-'rilla

lol.. brutal..

Loanhorse, if you have played a serious amount of online poker, there is a very good chance you have been colluded against. This was not one of those times.. just accept the fact that you lost and move on. Nobody agrees with you.

lolzzz_321

10-08-2005, 08:52 AM

#32 (permalink)

NO YOU

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: My ice is polarized

Posts: 2,797

SOMEBODY LOCK THIS POS HE KNOWS THEY WEREN'T COLLUDING!

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