Helping Pedophiles

[spoonitnow]

I've unfairly been pegged as a chronic troll here in the commune, and for that reason, I'm posting on something very serious.

Here's an interesting line of thought:

1. Decades ago, it was thought that homosexual preferences were a mental disorder and something to try to correct.

2. Present day, it's part of a massive civil rights struggle that has led to homosexuality being more or less accepted by the mainstream. A main component of this is "born this way" notion.

3. Present day, it's thought that pedophilic preferences are a mental disorder and something to try to correct.

4. In 50 years, will pedophilic preferences be the next great civil rights battle? Will there be a notion that they are just "born this way" with accusations of being pedophobic thrown towards anyone who opposes it?

Some people will read this as putting down homosexuality as being some kind of fucked up whatever. That's not the case.

Instead, I'm suggesting [the perhaps more outrageous opinion] that pedophilia (the preference, not the act) in and of itself is not fucked up.

Here's a fun read about a young guy who realized he was a pedophile and has taken steps to try to get support and build support for others who are in a similar situation as himself. It also discusses the problems that self-identified pedophiles face when trying to get help to make sure that they do not hurt someone: https://medium.com/matter/youre-16-y...w-e11ce4b88bdb

The topic of child porn laws also came up in a different thread, and that's kind of relevant here as well.

[aubreymcfate]

I actually completely agree with this, and I think the comparison to homosexuality is important. Of course you have to be super precise when articulating why this analogy is useful, but I've thought about this a lot, so I get why you're making it.

ergh I have more to say but I'm at work right now and can't, but I just wanted to throw in my agreement real quick, will follow up later tho..

[MadMojoMonkey]

Whatever the social impact, if the rates of pedophilia are as high as I've read, then criminalization is not an option. If the estimates for pedophilia rates are suggesting a minimum of 5% and an unclear upper bound that is suggested to be less than or near 20%... I mean... that's anywhere between 1 and 4 from a group of 20 people are likely to be people who have had pedo behaviors. I sincerely hope that the actual rate of pedo offenders is lower than 1%, but if in reality, it's 5%... I don't stand behind any legal policy that summarily criminalizes such a large portion of the citizenry.

So if that 5% is an accurate number, then we, as a society need to seriously find out what this means to us and how we want to handle it.

Assault is assault, and the implicit dominance and psychological coercion of age discrepancy is huge... it's ugly, no matter how you look at it.

It's so ugly that I don't even want to think about it, so it's no wonder the issue is staying "swept under the rug" and dealt with only on an individual basis.


Back to the 5% with some perspective.

The US has the highest incarceration rate of any country by far. Roughly 25% of all the world's incarcerated people are incarcerated US citizens in the US (land of the free :/ ). The rate of incarceration among Americans is ~0.94% for people actively in prisons and jails, and ~3% counting all parolees, half-way housees, house-arrestees, etc.

So the notion of criminalizing 5% of the population is outrageous.

[Keith]

it total bullshit for an analogy. Homosexuals by definition are consenting adults of the same sexual inclination. peadophiles are adults who fantasize/lust after children who by definition are not adults are therefore cannot be consenting

[OngBonga]

There's one critical difference between homsexuality and paedolphilia, and that's morality. But other than that distinction, I am of the opinion that they are both mental issues. It's just that homsexuality isn't really a problem. What two consenting adults do to each other is noone else's business. What an adult does to a child is certainly not something that can be dismissed as noone else's business.

Those paedophiles who recognise that acting upon their imulses is immoral and refrain from doing so, well they most certainly should not be treated like criminals. I dunno if they can be "helped", but to outright assume that anyone who finds children attractive is dangerous is no different to assuming all single straight men are rapists.

Those who engage in sexual activity with pre-pubescent children are, imo, committing a more serious crime that raping an adult, and the penalties should reflect that.

[aubreymcfate]

The analogy doesn't refer to what should actually manifest in real life. All the analogy refers to is the idea that, largely speaking, our sexual inclinations are something we are born with. You could extend the analogy to heterosexuals too, or bisexuals, or pansexuals.

I actually think that sexual identity can also be molded by external factors. Either way, I don't believe we have any significantly conscious control over it.

The analogy is only useful in making the point that these desires can be just as innate and/or out of one's control as any other sexuality.

Of course, you're right Keith... Homosexuality is markedly different than pedophilia in that the desire translates to a healthy and consensual relationship, where as pedophilia can and will never do so.

I don't even think it's necessarily wrong to consider pedophilia a mental disorder, since it's not something you can ever healthily incorporate into your life, or anything you can act on without harming another individual. To manifest your pedophilic desires in any manner that involves a living, breathing object of said desires is unequivocally wrong, and should be publicly denounced.

Nonetheless, I think it's important to draw distinctions, and not to criminalize or demonize people for something that they would not necessarily choose for themselves.

That's the other really important difference between pedophilia and other sexualities. People like to go on about "born this way" when it comes to gay people, and that's cool, but honestly, even if being gay was a lifestyle choice - so. fucking. what? There is nothing wrong with being anything other than straight, regardless of how you came to be that way.

That's simply not the case with pedophilia. It's a torturous inclination to possess because no sensible and good person would actually choose it. Perhaps they harbor fantasies of a world where that's not harmful to children, but again, any sane individual would be able to distinguish fact from fancy, and any decent individual would care.

Anyway, what I ultimately agree with is a compassionate understanding of pedophilic desires, and finding a way to collectively understand our discomfort. When you reveal the form of something, only then can you go about processing it in a productive manner, and making decisions that have real, long-term benefit.

[spoonitnow]

it total bullshit for an analogy. Homosexuals by definition are consenting adults of the same sexual inclination. peadophiles are adults who fantasize/lust after children who by definition are not adults are therefore cannot be consenting

Homosexuality is not by definition between two adults, and consent is not implied. Your understanding of the analogy is off, but it's natural to have a knee-jerk reaction to this.

By our current medical standards, pedophilia is when someone 16+ has a primary sexual urge towards someone 13 and below. In many parts of the world, there are certain age arrangements where sex between two people that would be considered the product of pedophilia is legal. For example, in North Carolina it's legal for a 16 year old to fuck a 12 year old.

What I'm relaying here is that it's legal for a 12 year old to have sex with a pedophile in this state because they can legally consent to it in specific cases. And this isn't the only place this is legal.

So there are situations where people can consent to homosexuality just like there are situations where people can consent to pedophilia. The fact that anyone can be on the receiving end of nonconsensual sex of any type doesn't undermine the analogy.

[wufwugy]

The mere state of a society believing pedophilia is wrong perhaps makes it a more problematic thing than it is naturally. There is at least one tribe in New Guinea where young boys have lots of sex with the adult men, and there are no identifiable problems that arise from this, most likely because the sex is considered a good thing. Their superstition is that semen is life force that creates strength, and the only reason why boys grow into men is because they're given a lot of semen from other men, so the life force is transferred and the boys grow big and strong. Women are not big and strong because giving birth ejects all the life force they receive from semen.

Furthermore, in many (perhaps most) cases, how the people close to a molested child react is more important than the molestation in the first place. Children don't know what to believe or what to feel, but when adults act like they have been irrevocably violated, they believe it and it sets the tone for everything. Instead of learning from it and moving on, it stays with them in shame for their entire lives

I know this is supposed to be about the preference, not the act, but I want to make those points. My solution to pedophilia is the same as my solution to all unsolved problems: trying to fix issues by passing laws will only make it worse. So then my solution is that I don't know the solution other than we have to see what happens when we stop criminalizing everything and let individuals and communities handle their own shit

[JKDS]

We should probably be ignoring sex between minors issue. While one of them may be a pedophile by definition, the argument is really about decriminalizing statutory rape when both parties are children. It would be a moot point that one party was a pedophile if sex between minors was decriminalized. This issue is probably winnable, and I can see change happening on this in 50 years, but its a separate issue from pedophilia.

Regarding all other instances, the first step to decriminalization would be a showing that the relationships arent harmful. I'm not sure that evidence would support that showing though, especially for cases where the age gap is large.

Without such a showing, its highly unlikely any judge would find the laws unconstitutional or that any politician would work towards repealing the law. Honestly, a politician probably wouldnt either way, just because being soft on crime is 'bad'.

[Luco]

pedophiles are fucking immature assholes

[spoonitnow]

pedophiles are fucking immature assholes

Nice!