Hadron Collider = End of Earth?

[a500lbgorilla]

yeah well, none of that great science attributes for taste.

[bigred]

Hmmmm, I woke up with a third arm this morning...is this normal?

[bigred]

Hmmmm, I woke up with a third arm this morning...is this normal?

False alarm people, it was just my penis wrapped around my arm.

[wesrman]

I think we might be dead, and we just dont know it yet.

[bigred]

I hope so, I could use a vacation

[CoccoBill]

God particle is 'found': Scientists at Cern expected to announce Higgs boson particle has been discovered on Wednesday | Mail Online

[supa]

I hope so, I could use a vacation

From this bullshit 3 ring circus sideshow?

[kickass]

Of freaks?

[OngBonga]

I'm so sick of the term "God particle". It's the fucking Higgs.

They say this thing gives matter mass... it's not a particle that gives matter mass. Mass is basically a consequence of warped spacetime, the mass of an object is exactly equal to the energy it takes to move it off its geodesic. Mass is gravity, it's not a fucking particle.

I swear they're making shit up to stop us actually figuring it all out. For example, Newton told us a billion years ago that every action has an equal and opposite action. So if the observable universe is expanding, Newton's Third Law implies there must be other regions of the universe experiencing both contraction and equilibrium. But no, they keep on harping out the same tired old line that the big bang was the beginning of the universe. Bollocks. It's merely the beginning of the expansion phase.

They're lying to us because they don't want us to have free energy. And if we understand gravity thoroughly, free energy will be abundant.

So they're gonna announce they've found the Higgs Boson. Brilliant. That's NWO code for time to hide underground. It's coming. We're all gonna die.

Also, Elvis is alive and well, and is living in Wales.

[kiwiMark]

I'm so sick of the term "God particle". It's the fucking Higgs.

They say this thing gives matter mass... it's not a particle that gives matter mass. Mass is basically a consequence of warped spacetime, the mass of an object is exactly equal to the energy it takes to move it off its geodesic. Mass is gravity, it's not a fucking particle.

I swear they're making shit up to stop us actually figuring it all out. For example, Newton told us a billion years ago that every action has an equal and opposite action. So if the observable universe is expanding, Newton's Third Law implies there must be other regions of the universe experiencing both contraction and equilibrium. But no, they keep on harping out the same tired old line that the big bang was the beginning of the universe. Bollocks. It's merely the beginning of the expansion phase.

They're lying to us because they don't want us to have free energy. And if we understand gravity thoroughly, free energy will be abundant.

So they're gonna announce they've found the Higgs Boson. Brilliant. That's NWO code for time to hide underground. It's coming. We're all gonna die.

Also, Elvis is alive and well, and is living in Wales.

Seems like you could have mentioned this in the thread where I asked about stuff to see in Wales, dick.

[MadMojoMonkey]

They say this thing gives matter mass... it's not a particle that gives matter mass. Mass is basically a consequence of warped spacetime, the mass of an object is exactly equal to the energy it takes to move it off its geodesic. Mass is gravity, it's not a fucking particle.

Isaac Newton explained gravitation, but not gravity. He explained what was going on, but not why. Albert Einstein showed that the effect of gravitation warps space-time in a predictable way, expanding the what, but still not explaining the why.
Experiments have shown that there are 2 kinds of mass. There is the gravitational mass, which is the mass related to the force a body exerts on other bodies { F=GMm/r^2 }. There is also inertial mass, which is the mass related to how a body will react to a force { F=ma }. One mass for gravitational action, another mass for generalized reaction. These 2 intrinsic quantities have been shown to be nearly equal, but not equal. This discrepancy has not been explained by the Standard Model.
The Higgs Boson aka, the graviton, has not yet been discovered. As it stands, physics has not explained why gravity exists. All the matter and energy we have observed (protons, neutrons, electrons, neutrinos, photons, gluons, etc.) does not warp space-time, yet space-time is warped. WTF is going on? Peter Higgs, et al. suggested there is a Boson that does this. However, hundreds of experiments to isolate a Higgs Boson have turned up no confirmation. This is one of the great frontiers in human understanding.
If your analysis is correct, Ongie, you surely have a Nobel Prize in your future.

For example, Newton told us ~400 years ago that every action has an equal and opposite action. So if the observable universe is expanding, Newton's Third Law implies there must be other regions of the universe experiencing both contraction and equilibrium. But no, they keep on harping out the same tired old line that the big bang was the beginning of the universe. Bollocks. It's merely the beginning of the expansion phase.

Newton's Laws of Motion are excellent approximations, but they are not "truth". Science is not interested in "truth"; science is interested in "consistently reproducible observations". Quantum Mechanics and Relativity have superseded Newtons Laws, and it is shown that Newton's Laws are derivative of these later theories, in the limit of "low velocities" (compared to the speed of light) and "large scales" (compared to atomic scales).
What Newton's 3rd Law implies is that there is some pressure causing the expansion to accelerate.
The existence of Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation was predicted by Big Bang cosmology before the CMB was ever observed. The fact that is was there to be seen is pretty solid evidence of good science. Prediction of an unobserved phenomenon based on theory, which yields observation of said phenomenon is usually very solid evidence of correct theory.
It is a misconception to think of the Big Bang as the beginning of the universe, it's more like an event horizon, beyond which all observation is impossible. It is a misconception to think of the universe as everything, since it is really only everything humans know about.
No matter in which direction we look, we see an event horizon 13.7 billion light years away, this is the indication that our universe is 13.7 billion years old, and that the transition it underwent at that time was at a very specific energy density. This energy density would require all of the matter and energy in the universe (even the "dark matter" and "dark energy") to have been confined to a very small volume.

They're lying to us because they don't want us to have free energy. And if we understand gravity thoroughly, free energy will be abundant.

So they're gonna announce they've found the Higgs Boson. Brilliant. That's NWO code for time to hide underground. It's coming. We're all gonna die.

Also, Elvis is alive and well, and is living in Wales.

Totally. Just like the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics have brought us microwave ovens, personal computers, cell phones, GPS, new composite materials, MRI, PET, and CAT scans, etc., etc. All things that doom us. Elvis got out when he could, but he's not in Wales, he's on a small island in the Philippines.

[OngBonga]

I only found out today Mark. My mate saw him in Rhyl.


Albert Einstein didn't tell us that gravity warps spacetime, he told us gravity is warped spacetime. And he did explain why. He told us that the presence of energy distorts spacetime around it, creating valleys, which we interpret as straight lines in space curving around a central mass. We think we're going around the sun, but we're not, we're falling into the distorted spacetime its presence causes. Our orbit is an illusion. Time is going much, much slower on the surface of the sun, compared to here on Earth. So does that make the sun younger than the Earth? How does this make sense? Obviously the sun is older than the Earth. So the sun must be travelling through less spacetime to balance this lost time. If time is x4 slower at the surface of the sun compared to the surface of Earth, we need to travel through x4 as much spacetime as the sun to remain in its proximity. That's why we orbit the sun, because spacetime is distorted. We're not going around it, we're falling towards it, while it falls away from us at an equal rate. The rotating spiral of warped spacetime it leaves in its trail creates our orbit. We leave a rotating spiral of warped spacetime in our wake, which the Moon duly follows.

I'm just talking stoned shit. But it all makes sense to me. The only thing I haven't figured out yet is why the expansion of the universe is accelerating. Seems too easy to point at dark matter, I think that's a cop out, like we'll just make up some shit to explain what's happening. I haven't got tea because this mystery force is stopping me from actually making myself one. We'll call in antitea.

[OngBonga]

It is a misconception to think of the Big Bang as the beginning of the universe, it's more like an event horizon, beyond which all observation is impossible.

I don't think observation is impossible. Look in the opposite direction to which logic tells us to look. If you want to see what was before the big bang, don't look back in time, look forward.

[eugmac]

By tea do you mean dinner, or the brown stuff you make out of leaves?

[OngBonga]

When an Englishman refers to tea, he means the drink unless otherwise stated or obvious.

[eugmac]

that was far from my experience when i lived in manchester! anyway back to godly particles.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Albert Einstein didn't tell us that gravity warps spacetime, he told us gravity is warped spacetime. And he did explain why. He told us that the presence of energy distorts spacetime around it, creating valleys, which we interpret as straight lines in space curving around a central mass.

By whatever name, the rose smells as sweet. Whether you call it "gravity" or "warped spacetime" the fact remains that there has not been any observation which directly links a particle's energy to its observed rest masses (gravitational or inertial).
It's like: a quark weighs 1 something, and a proton is 3 quarks, so why does a proton weigh 1800 somethings? The mass can be measured and described quite adequately, but the cause of the mass is still a mystery to the most brilliant physicists in the world.
Demonstrate that your theory is correct, Ongie, and you will certainly win a Nobel Prize in Physics.

We think we're going around the sun, but we're not, we're falling into the distorted spacetime its presence causes.

Yes.

Our orbit is an illusion.

Wait, what?

Time is going much, much slower on the surface of the sun, compared to here on Earth. So does that make the sun younger than the Earth?

There is no absolute time-frame. It's all relative. Causality is not a given in relativistic situations. Events do not happen in the same order in all reference frames. It's mind boggling, for sure. In any reference frame you or I will ever be in, the sun is ~4 billion years old, and the Earth is ~3.5 billion years old.

How does this make sense? Obviously the sun is older than the Earth. So the sun must be travelling through less spacetime to balance this lost time. If time is x4 slower at the surface of the sun compared to the surface of Earth, we need to travel through x4 as much spacetime as the sun to remain in its proximity.

Be very careful when you go from "I don't know" to "It must be" in 1 step. There is so much ... hogwash ... (no offense, bro) ... in this part that I don't know where to begin, or even if you were joking or not.

That's why we orbit the sun, because spacetime is distorted. We're not going around it, we're falling towards it, while it falls away from us at an equal rate.

Yes. Wait. No.
All massive objects (stuff made of atoms, for example) exert a force on each other, which is attractive. The Earth and sun both fall towards each other. They are both falling exactly towards each other's horizon, no matter how long they fall, it's still the horizon. This is how the moon and all other satellites maintain an orbit... by falling to the horizon. This is how ALL orbits are maintained.

The rotating spiral of warped spacetime it leaves in its trail creates our orbit. We leave a rotating spiral of warped spacetime in our wake, which the Moon duly follows.

No, the gravity of the Earth is not intense enough to do something that dramatic. The precession of Mercury is an example, though. These ripples you mention are effects of "frame dragging" and tend to throw something like a planet out of an orbit, not hold it in.

I'm just talking stoned shit. But it all makes sense to me. The only thing I haven't figured out yet is why the expansion of the universe is accelerating. Seems too easy to point at dark matter, I think that's a cop out, like we'll just make up some shit to explain what's happening. I haven't got tea because this mystery force is stopping me from actually making myself one. We'll call in antitea.

Well, I'm just doing my part as a person with a physics degree to elucidate the dark corners of misconception with a little knowledge of human achievement.
"Dark Matter" is totally a different thing from "Dark Energy". They are both absolute cop-outs.

[d0zer]

Hardon Collision = Tummy Sticks

[OngBonga]

...the fact remains that there has not been any observation which directly links a particle's energy to its observed rest masses (gravitational or inertial).

Erm... you have a physics degree, and you're telling me that the energy of a particle is not related to its mass?

All massive objects (stuff made of atoms, for example) exert a force on each other, which is attractive.

And gravity is not a force.

Did you not listen to anything Einstein said?

The Earth and sun both fall towards each other.

They would if the Earth and sun were the only two objects in the universe.

The sun is falling away from Earth because the sun is falling towards the centre of the galaxy. But the centre of the galaxy is falling away from the sun, because that is falling towards an even more dominant gravity field etc.

So no, the sun isn't falling into our horizon, because there's much more dominant objects affecting the sun. We merely cause the sun to wobble on it axis very slightly.

[Galapogos]

Cool Hand Luke Boxing Scene - YouTube

The Ong/MadMojo exchange in this thread reminds me of the fight in Cool Hand Luke. Except Ong doesn't come off nearly as noble as Luke. Dude, you're picking an internet fight with a physics major, this does not end in victory for you.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Erm... you have a physics degree, and you're telling me that the energy of a particle is not related to its mass?

It's hard to be technical and brief at the same time. Add in that I have no idea what your background knowledge is and I'm stuck picking and re-picking my words over and over.
I'm saying that we can measure all kinds of things about particles and one of them is mass. Clearly, I acknowledge that mass and energy are capable of being transformed into each other.
What I'm saying is that the cause of mass is not understood. There are competing theories, the most widely accepted of which is the Higgs theory. None of the theories has been confirmed.

And gravity is not a force.
Did you not listen to anything Einstein said?

The conversation started with Newton's theory of gravitation, which describes the force exerted by 2 massive bodies on each other.
I have read Einstein's Relativity, but did not take a course specifically on the subject. In the book he talks about forces quite extensively.

They would if the Earth and sun were the only two objects in the universe.

I was not attempting to describe the entire universe, just a 2 body system.

The sun is falling away from Earth because the sun is falling towards the centre of the galaxy. But the centre of the galaxy is falling away from the sun, because that is falling towards an even more dominant gravity field etc.

It seems to me that saying the sun is falling away from the Earth is only accurate during the half of the year when the Earth is in a certain part of its orbit. Then the other half, the sun is falling toward the Earth, but the Earth is falling away... it's just a matter of reference frame. It confuses the fundamental notion that massive things fall toward each other.

So no, the sun isn't falling into our horizon, because there's much more dominant objects affecting the sun. We merely cause the sun to wobble on it axis very slightly.

Agreed. Over 98% of all the mass in the solar system is the sun. The wobble caused by Earth slight indeed.

[WillburForce]

that was far from my experience when i lived in manchester! anyway back to godly particles.

My gf's mum offers you tea with your tea.

A) Its called dinner

B) No I want wine



back to the Allah particle.................

[OngBonga]

What I'm saying is that the cause of mass is not understood.

No, what you're saying is you do not understand what the cause of mass is, and you're happy to just accept that.

I'm not.

Einstein told us what mass is... it's energy. The cause... geodesics in spacetime. You try and move energy off its geodesic, and it resists. That, my friend, is weight. Mass, it's merely the quantity of energy.

At least that's what I think. My background is internet, weed and talking shit with my mates. I'm not held back be textbooks telling me how to think.

I have read Einstein's Relativity, but did not take a course specifically on the subject. In the book he talks about forces quite extensively.

He insists gravity is not a force, rather, it's the the consequence of warped spacetime. The Moon travels in a straight line, not a curved line. It is space that's curved, not the Moon's path. Gravity is an illusion. When we see the Moon go around the Earth, what we're seeing is a straight line in warped spacetime, so the straight line in warped space creates a great circle (geodesic) around a central mass. It's like if you walk around the equator. You're going in a straight line, but on a curved surface, so you end up at the same point you started. So the Moon is going about its business as usual, it goes in a straight line perpendicular to the Earth. But it curves towards Earth, not because the Earth is pulling the Moon, but because the Earth is distorting spacetime. When you sit down on a chair, anything that was on it (let's say a box of ciggies) is drawn towards your arse because you distorted the seat. You didn't actually interfere with the sub atomic structure of the ciggies, or anything like that, there was no "action at a distance", no communication between arse and ciggies. The ciggies fell towards the arse because the seat became distorted. Not the arse, not the ciggies, the seat. Arse distoted the seat. But of course, the ciggies also distorted the seat. But did the arse fall towards the ciggies? Very, very slightly.Compared to the distortion the arse causes, the ciggies's distortion in negligible. Sure, the arse falls towards the ciggies very slowly, but the ciggies fall to the arse much quicker.

The sun's wobble that the Earth causes, in this time it takes the sun to rotate on it axis slightly (that's the wobble), the Earth has travelled o whole orbit around the sun. That's the difference in space and time. Earth has traveled much, much further than the sun in the same time, so that's why time is distorted on the sun relative to Earth. Because our space is distorted relative to the sun.

I like the term "Allah particle".

[OngBonga]

It seems to me that saying the sun is falling away from the Earth is only accurate during the half of the year when the Earth is in a certain part of its orbit.

No, I don't get this at all. We are always falling towards the sun. And yeah, the sun is always falling towards us, if you consider an axial wobble to be falling, which technically it is. It's a consistent motion.

[MadMojoMonkey]

No, what you're saying is you do not understand what the cause of mass is, and you're happy to just accept that.

Seems like this statement was designed to hurt my feelings, Ongie. I never said that. I believe voluntary ignorance is the only great folly of humankind, and that all other follies are derivative of this. Rest assured that my ignorance is unintentional.

I clearly do not understand the cause of mass, but I am quite interested in understanding. It seems that CERN has given me something to think about, though. Today, the CERN press release that says there is evidence for the Higgs @ 99.999% certainty.

CERN celebrates as Higgs signal reaches significance | Ars Technica

[OngBonga]

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, I just don't get my point across very well on the internet and it usually comes across as mockery, arrogant or mean. I'm just talking shit, and to be quite honest, I'm enjoying this conversation.

[d0zer]

My background is internet, weed and talking shit with my mates. I'm not held back be textbooks telling me how to think.

[MadMojoMonkey]

[Einstein] insists gravity is not a force, rather, it's the the consequence of warped spacetime. The Moon travels in a straight line, not a curved line. It is space that's curved, not the Moon's path. Gravity is an illusion.

I pretty much agree with this whole post (although the ciggies part is a bit weird). I now understand what you mean in saying that gravity is an illusion.

Although, I prefer, "There is no such thing as gravity; it's just that everything sucks."

After a quick re-skim of Einstein's "Relativity":
Over and over in this book, Einstein seems to avoid the word force (I concede) and favors talking about accelerations.

What I don't get is if the Higgs Boson has the mass of an Iodine atom, how does it impart mass to less massive things like protons and electrons?

[OngBonga]

I sat down and my ciggies moved towards me. Seemed like a good analogy at the time.

What I don't get is if the Higgs Boson has the mass of an Iodine atom, how does it impart mass to less massive things like protons and electrons?

I don't get this at all. I don't know what the Higgs is. I don't know how it has the mass of an iodine atom if they're getting these things by smashing particles together, what I've been blabbering on about makes more sense to me that what they're blabbering on about.

[Eric]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this announcement that the Higgs particle has been found.

[Galapogos]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this announcement that the Higgs particle has been found.

Dude, Tom and Katy broke up in the same week!

[JKDS]

Everyone knows god isnt a particle.

[Eric]

Dude, Tom and Katy broke up in the same week!

lol, yeah. I guess Tom takes that scientology stuff pretty far...

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this announcement that the Higgs particle has been found.

This actually came up twice today for me. Neither times of my own doing.