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a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 04:59 PM Post subject: Getting Government Clearance

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Anyone have any experience with this?

I was just offered an internship to BIT Systems to help with satelite dynamics and controls pending gov't clearance. I was given an 8 page document where I am to detail my entire life. They have a section for everything including drug use. At the end, i get a polygraph test im told and if i fail that... im done. And Ill probably need gov't clearance to work at any job in my field most likely.

I wanna know if they care that i've done drugs or just if im honest about it.

If it helps, i know im not addicted to pot or alcohol since i've gone a semester without drinking alcohol for my diet and pot just isnt addicting. Im much more addicted to food than any drug. I've tried coke and shrooms and have had the intention of trying acid.

I'm afraid this won't look good on paper and that i might overly spin it during the polygraph and fail.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

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WildBobAA

02-14-2007, 05:05 PM

#2 (permalink)

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If you're that worried about it, it seems like you'd fail the polygraph and lying about drug use and having them find out would be much worse than just telling them IMO.

swiggidy

02-14-2007, 05:19 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I wonder the same, I'll be in a similar situation whenever I get a job offer.

The only people I know who have gotten clearances don't have a drug history so it wasn't an issue.

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seoul_child1

02-14-2007, 05:20 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Yes, gov't clearance paperwork is No joke, they will check up on eveything you list or write. If they require a passing polygraph test for this job I highly suggest you do not lie about the drug question, just don't need to get all specific just say, things you've tried when you were younger. They can instantly know when you are lying. Good Luck.

Warpe

02-14-2007, 05:25 PM

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Don't lie, and don't use anything cause you might have to take a drug test down the road.

gabe

02-14-2007, 05:42 PM

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

tell truth but make it sound harmless

chardrian

02-14-2007, 05:58 PM

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A good poker player would be able to beat the polygraph.

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euphoricism

02-14-2007, 06:02 PM

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polygraphs are a joke, and as chardrian will tell you, not admissable in court. Theyre used by police as a method to scare you into confessing.

Tell them about the pot, tell them its been two years. Thats *normally* the cutoff. Anything harder is almost always immediate disqual. Dont mention the coke/shrooms. They wont know if you dont tell them.

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zook

02-14-2007, 06:05 PM

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Personally I would lie about the coke and shrooms and play down how much pot you've smoked (say like five times or something). Stick to your story on the polygraph. Those things are notoriously unreliable, and I've heard you can fail parts of it and still get clearance. I think as long as you don't fail parts about whether you're loyal to your country, a terrorist, have committed a violent crime, etc. you'll be all right.

Warpe

02-14-2007, 06:09 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Tell them about the pot, tell them its been two years. Thats *normally* the cutoff. Anything harder is almost always immediate disqual. Dont mention the coke/shrooms. They wont know if you dont tell them.

Ya, I'd agree with this. Hard stuff like coke is a huge red flag.

zook

02-14-2007, 06:13 PM Post subject: Re: Getting Government Clearance

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

and have had the intention of trying acid.

But def tell them this.

bode

02-14-2007, 06:40 PM

#12 (permalink)

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bode is an unknown quantity at this point

just smoke a bowl before you go, it will calm your nerves.

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DaNutsInYoEye

02-14-2007, 06:49 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

A good poker player would be able to beat the polygraph.

That's why we're telling 'rilla he's better off just being honest.

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Sprayed

02-14-2007, 07:03 PM

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This is what I do for a living. I have a clearance (TS/SCI). I have taken a full scope poly as well and passed on the first try. I have done drugs and I admitted to it in my clearance paperwork and during my poly. It's no big deal as long as it hasn't been recent. They just want you to tell the truth. I can't believe that you would be done if you didn't pass the poly the first time. I know people that have had to take it several times (like over 5).

Which agency is this through? If you need to take a poly I would say CIA, NSA, and NRO. I process clearances for a living and know how each agency works and what they are looking for. Here is the adjudication requirements for intel agencies:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/dcid6-4/dcid6-4.pdf

If this is a DOD clearance then refer to this manual (NISPOM):

http://www.dss.mil/files/pdf/nispom2006-5220.pdf

I could talk about the different background investigations but it would probably confuse you. If you read the NISPOM you will have a pretty good understanding. Also, without knowing which type (DOD or Intel), I don't want to tell you one thing and be incorrect. If you want specific info, just PM me or post more questions.

drmcboy

02-14-2007, 07:04 PM

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I had a cousin who wanted to be in the FBI as like a chemical foresnic person or something, admitted to smoking pot in the past, had never done anything else, and she did not get in.

givememyleg

02-14-2007, 07:11 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

A good poker player would be able to beat the polygraph.

That's why we're telling 'rilla he's better off just being honest.

rofl

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Sprayed

02-14-2007, 07:12 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I had a cousin who wanted to be in the FBI as like a chemical foresnic person or something, admitted to smoking pot in the past, had never done anything else, and she did not get in.

It depends upon the agency. DEA and FBI are two that frown on drug history. DEA won't even consider you. The FBI may allow you be cleared through them depending upon what you will be doing for them and the extent of access that you will have.

TripsChaos

02-14-2007, 08:16 PM

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I have a friend who works for a government accounting firm out of northern virginia.

When he was taking his 5-hour long polygraph test, he admitted that he had smoked marijuana, and they asked him if he has ever smoked more then either 17 or 21 (can't remember which) individual times. He said no, passed the test, and afterwards asked why the number of times mattered. His instructor said that the government, through testing, determined that any drug act done at least 17 (or 21) times is considered a habit, and will result being an unacceptable candidate for any government position.

a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 08:16 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprayed

The Project I will be working on is for the CIA.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 08:20 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Well, i emailed Kim the Human Resources lady I met at the interview and said that I've done pot as short as half a week ago and she said If i can buck the habbit now, by the time I get polygraphed it shouldnt be a big deal.

Im still worried though. If I don't get this gov't clearence I won't be able to make 100k+ a year 5 yrs out of graduation.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 08:26 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

A good poker player would be able to beat the polygraph.

I'll think 2 levels to far and fail the polygraph when it asks for my place of birth. (Which I actually have a really hard time remembering.)

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Warpe

02-14-2007, 08:29 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

The Project I will be working on is for the CIA.

We hope they never read FTR, obv.

a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 08:42 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Hmmm, good point.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Warpe

02-14-2007, 08:46 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Hmmm, good point.

Use your mod powers and dump/move the thread.

donkbee

02-14-2007, 08:53 PM

#25 (permalink)

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move it somewhere good!

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Sprayed

02-14-2007, 09:14 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Make sure that you discuss your personal information with only the security specialist of the company (Facility Security Officer (FSO) or Contractor Special Security Officer (CSSO)). I wouldn't recommend talking to HR about this. They could use this information against you. Legally they can't do this, but subconsciously they might treat you differently.

You have nothing to worry about. When you go for the poly, the interviewer will go over your SF 86 and will ask you if everything is correct. The questions during the poly are:
-Are you a loyal citizen to the US
-Do you want to overthrow the govt.?
-Do you use illegal drugs, other than what was discussed previously (before the poly, the interviewer will want to know when and how much illegal drugs you have taken. If you answer truthfully then, then during the poly you will pass.)
-Have you ever provided classified information to someone due to blackmail and/or coercion?
-Do you like to take it up the ass? (just kidding, they don't ask about your sexual interests)

There's a few other questions but they are along the lines of the ones above. They will ask you if you look at ways to beat the poly and your answer to this is no. Don't be online looking at ways to beat the poly because they will really scrutinize you. But, trust me, you will be fine. It is not as painful as you think. Just tell them truthfully whatever they want to know and you will be fine.

One last thing. It may take up to 2 years for you to be processed for a clearance. The investigation process can take a long time. Normally, once your investigation closes, the investigator will send their findings to the poly office and they will use this information along with your poly results to make an adjudication. Once adjudicated, they will notify the FSO/CSSO and the FSO/CSSO will schedule you at the CIA for a briefing. Once briefed, you will have Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) access with a TS clearance. You will probably be read into several areas within SCI like acronyms TK and G. I can't tell you what those stand for but they will.

Oh, make sure that you don't have any immediate relatives that are foreign nationals. If you do, you may be automatically disqualified for SCI access.

GL and let me know if you have any other questions and let me know how it turns out.

Sprayed

02-14-2007, 09:16 PM

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It's no big deal if people know that you are contracted to work with the CIA unless you are told not to discuss this. Your future company should tell you this. What would worry the CIA is if you discussed the classified work that you do with them to people that don't have a clearance or a "need-to-know".

Sprayed

02-14-2007, 09:18 PM

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Sorry to post so many times, but I also wanted to mention that once you attain a TS/SCI clearance in the DC area or any area with a large Federal govt. base, you will be highly marketable. You can go from job to job making more and more each time. Most engineers with this clearance in the DC area make close to 150k to 200k depending upon your title.

boost

02-14-2007, 09:20 PM

#29 (permalink)

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lol clearancaments?

a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 09:41 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Thanks Sprayed. Once you told me it'll be easy and i'll be rich, now im excited to get cleared!

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

euphoricism

02-14-2007, 09:46 PM

#31 (permalink)

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I doubt he's going straight from no clearance to SCI, sprayed. Don't they generally take you "through the ladder" ? It seems rare for a college grad to jump straight to SCI.

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a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 10:11 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Yah, but im pimp as shit.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

a500lbgorilla

02-14-2007, 10:30 PM

#33 (permalink)

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Also, just cuz it slipped my mind.

I was interviewed by the co-founder of the company who says his goal is to make everyone who works for BITS a millionaire. Also, he played in the WSOP last year and was busted by Tex Barch late in the 2nd day with KK vrs AA and 70k behind. He also plans to take everyone who is employed at BITS "somewhere warm" for christmas. Basically, this is going to be the most balla working environment ever.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Sprayed

02-14-2007, 11:09 PM

#34 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I doubt he's going straight from no clearance to SCI, sprayed. Don't they generally take you "through the ladder" ? It seems rare for a college grad to jump straight to SCI.

Nope, it's that simple. I process recent grads everyday for clearances. The investigation and adjudication is what determines if a person can have access to classified information. SCI is just an access right within the Intel world. Intel agencies put higher safeguards (key word) on their classified information than normal collateral (DOD) clearances. SCI can be a caveat for confidential, secret, and top secret (ex. TS/SCI or Secret/SCI). It's just a special access. In the DOD world, they have a special access program called SAP (Special Access Program). SAP are programs that are black programs and most are known not to exist. They are usually military programs developing new defense items.

The process for rilla will be the following:
-complete the clearance paperwork (SF86) can also be done online with a tool called e-QIP, but I don't think that the CIA will accept that.
-Submit to CIA.
-CIA conducts investigation to include speaking with all of his references.
-Send investigation to poly office
-rilla takes poly
-CIA adjudicates results
-CIA awards clearance eligibility and notifies rilla's contractor
-rilla's contractor schedules him for the SCI briefing
-CIA briefs rilla into SCI
-rilla becomes a wealthy man but then looses his cash playing poker and sells classified information to the Russians so that he can play more poker

Note: The clearance process could take up to two years depending upon his information.

Sprayed

02-14-2007, 11:15 PM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Thanks Sprayed. Once you told me it'll be easy and i'll be rich, now im excited to get cleared!

I would say that within 5-10 years you could be doing fairly well. However, as you know, the cost of living will kick your ass if you work the DC Metro area.

mcatdog

02-15-2007, 12:37 AM

#36 (permalink)

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Rilla,

In my experience, you're screwed. I had an internship a few summers ago that required a TS clearance. A friend of mine also applied, but he got rejected solely for having smoked pot before. He was at least as qualified of an applicant as I was, other than the drugs. Once I passed, I spoke with one of the directors of my program and he said drug use and very close personal connections with foreign nationals are the two things that they pretty much insta-reject you for; everything else isn't that big of a deal (obv if you're like a convicted felon then you're not getting in either). Sorry for the bad news.

When I took my polygraph I kept getting tripped up when I answered a question that I was 100% telling the truth on the whole time, but eventually I passed it. Those things seem pretty damn unreliable but it's government policy to require them. Also, Sprayed is correct that you have several chances to pass them. You're not out of luck if you fail the first one.

Chardrian,

Quote:

A good poker player would be able to beat the polygraph.

I'm like 80% sure you're not serious but if you are, that's is a pretty dumb comment.

Lukie

02-15-2007, 01:25 AM

#37 (permalink)

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my recommendation: 100% complete honesty

this might peak your interest:

http://antipolygraph.org/

IowaSkinsFan

02-15-2007, 02:38 AM

#38 (permalink)

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My Advice: RESEARCH ABOUT POLYGRAPHS!!!
They are not accurate, and they are easy to beat once you realize what they react on.
We were just discussing this in my Psych class. She told us if we were ever given a polygraph test to research it so you know how to beat one.

Check out the new blog!!!

swiggidy

02-15-2007, 03:48 AM

#39 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Yes, you should take advice from Mr. Community Service.

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euphoricism

02-15-2007, 04:25 AM

#40 (permalink)

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Dont research them. Theyre beatable. By being confident. Believe your own bullshit until it sounds like truth. Thats all you need to know.

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mcatdog

02-15-2007, 05:28 AM

#41 (permalink)

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You guys don't know what you're talking about. You can't beat a lie detector just by appearing confident. When you tell a lie there's a physical reaction that takes place, and a polygraph machine can detect it even if the person you're talking to doesn't know the difference. When I took my polygraph the first thing they did was go through all the days of the week asking "Is today Monday," "Is today Tuesday," etc. and I was supposed to say no to all 7 of them. Obv I was 100% calm because I didn't give a shit what day of the week it was, but when I looked at their printout there was a huge difference when we got to the day of the week where they wanted me to lie.

I understand that it's possible to beat a lie detector but more to it than just confidence. If you think you can not research them and just go in there and lie without them noticing, you're in for a surprise.

Lukie

02-15-2007, 08:33 AM

#42 (permalink)

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One of the myths about the polygraph machine is that it's capable of detecting lies. That is not the truth. The machine is designed to measure physical reactions that occur in the vast, vast majority of people when they do tell a lie (mainly because the vast, vast majority of people were brought up to believe lying is deceitful, wrong, etc.)

I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff by any stretch, but 'beating' a polygraph test often revolves around recreating these physical reactions (there are many supposed ways, such as biting the side of your tongue) during the control questions.

Being confident is definitely +EV for you if you plan on lying on a polygraph test, for sure.

Sprayed

02-15-2007, 11:42 AM

#43 (permalink)

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They will ask you if you researched methods to beat the poly. DON'T DO IT! The reason why is because this alone will make it very difficult for you to pass. They will scrutinize every answer you provide. You will not pass on your first try. They will automatically assume that you have something to hide since you are looking at ways to beat it.

As for illegal drugs, it all depends on the agency in which you will be working with. Like I said before, the FBI and DEA are big sticklers on drugs. Every agency is different, unfortunately, in what they consider is more important. For example, if you were going through a background investigation to work at the IRS, they would be more concerned with your credit.

I have done some illegal drugs when I was in college and I admitted to this with the poly interviewer. If you used drugs the day before the poly, then of course you will have some trouble and probably not pass. But rilla, as your HR person stated, if you stop using now, you will be fine by the time you go for the poly. You must put on your SF 86 that you have done illegal drugs. The poly interviewer will go over your clearance paperwork to make sure that everything is correct and then ask you during the poly if you currently use drugs and have ever done drugs. If you said no in your paperwork then you're screwed.

Look, I process contractors for clearances for a living and I have been doing this for about 10 yrs. If you or anyone else here needs more detailed information just let me know. I have some training material that may help everyone understand the clearance process a little better.

thizzSantaCruz

02-16-2007, 02:34 AM

#44 (permalink)

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*edit* complete hijack so i am going to start my own thread on it.

sorry

fasin8ing

02-18-2007, 06:00 PM

#45 (permalink)

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Your talking about EPSQ. You shouldnt be too honest when it comes to drugs if youve never been caught. Thats stupid. As far as your bills, and credit history ... It can be verified. DO not lie about this. Do not lie about criminal history. Drugs are a no no .... Do not be honest about this.. You will not get a job. Good luck . What agency is doing your background check? There isnt a polygraph unless your going for a TSCI clearance.

I hold a TS clearance ... Always have. I work as a DOD contractor.

a500lbgorilla

02-18-2007, 06:11 PM

#46 (permalink)

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How would I not get caught if i'm going to be given a polygraph?!

I especially don't see the problem if i stay clean for 6months prior to the job proving that drugs have zero hold over me.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

chardrian

02-18-2007, 07:33 PM

#47 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Chardrian,

Quote:

A good poker player would be able to beat the polygraph.

I'm like 80% sure you're not serious but if you are, that's is a pretty dumb comment.

1) "that's is" = that is is.
2) Where are you getting your 80% figure from?
3) I am 100% sure that I have made pretty dumb comments before.
4) I think rilla should stop smoking the ganja at this point if he wants the job, and should tell the truth on the poly since it is clear to me that he would be way too worried about being caught in a lie to ever lie well.

euphoricism

02-18-2007, 08:04 PM

#48 (permalink)

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Yeah, stay clean, tell the truth. If your HR rep says its ok, its probably perfectly fine.

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Sprayed

02-18-2007, 11:17 PM

#49 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: GO BUCKS!

Posts: 3,057

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

The EPSQ is obsolete and it is not used any longer. For DoD clearances they use what's called "e-QIP". It is similar to the EPSQ but it is more up-to-date. It is an on-line application through the DoD clearance databased call the JPAS. However, the CIA is an intel agency and doesn't currently comply with DoD processing nor do they have to. This will be changed soon as the Director of Central Intelligence makes some changes.

If you have done drugs and did not state that on your clearance application (SF86, SF85p, EPSQ, e-QIP, etc.) you have committed a federal offense. The clearance application is a legal document and therefore, what you put on it must be truthful. If found that you lied you could go to jail. Either a $10k fine or over 10 years in imprisonment.

In addition, rilla will be polygraphed which means that if he states on his form that he did not do drugs and then admits or doesn't admit during the poly, he will have some explaining to do Lucy. In other words, he may not pass or it may take him several attempts to pass the poly.

I've said this before, I have done drugs and passed a polygraph. I admitted to this and everything was fine. I hold a TS/SCI with a full scope polygraph through a very popular intel agency.

If you haven't done drugs within the last year from the date of your poly, you will be fine. Agencies that have issues with drugs are the agencies that fight crime like the FBI and DEA. If you have ever done drugs in your life these agencies will not accept you.

fasin8ing, I would be very careful to give the advice that you gave to anyone that you work with or is applying for a job that requires a clearance. Very bad advice and I hope that you did not lie on your clearance application.

mcatdog

02-19-2007, 05:05 PM

#50 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

4) I think rilla should stop smoking the ganja at this point if he wants the job, and should tell the truth on the poly since it is clear to me that he would be way too worried about being caught in a lie to ever lie well.

Definitely. Unfortunately, he won't get the job either way IMO, but I think being open about it is his best bet. It sounded like you were suggesting earlier that he go in there and lie his ass off (with possible jail time resulting if he got caught lying), and that he wouldn't get caught because he's good at poker. I guess it should have been 100% obvious that you weren't serious but it's hard to tell sometimes.

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