Game of Thrones TV Thread **HBO-Purists ONLY**

[rong]

This show is so fucking dull when watched on a week by week basis. Great to marathon but dull dull dull when spread out.

[Eric]

This show is so fucking dull when watched on a week by week basis. Great to marathon but dull dull dull when spread out.

I wouldn't go so far as to say dull but I see where you're coming from.

Also, it is annoying when key characters aren't even seen in some of the episodes.

[wufwugy]

it doesnt help that this season is not that good.

[boost]

Maybe I'm a fan boy, I don't know, but I think you all are fucking crazy.

[rong]

I'm watching Mad men weekly now, the show delivers. I mean practically nothing happens but it works. I'm finding the complete opposite with got.

[jackvance]

It's still the best thing on TV. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's an epos, that's why it tells its story slowly. Near the end of the season is when shit always hits the fan.

[baudib]

I like the season just fine.

Spoiler: Show

The Roose Bolton "you're my son" scene doesn't quite warm the heart the way Stannis-Shireen does, but the interactions of these two monsters makes me feel a tinge of sympathy for Ramsay. He needs to die soon though, and it seems he will.

[wufwugy]

The issue is that with the stuff they're changing, they're not actually making it better. I think they set up divergences but then waddle back to book plots. It's a little messy and it contributes to why people are confused about motivations of some of the characters.

[jackvance]

The boltons are so unlikeable, downright cringey it has to be done on purpose. I guess Geoff's death left some shoes to fill.

[Eric]

It's still the best thing on TV. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's an epos, that's why it tells its story slowly. Near the end of the season is when shit always hits the fan.

Yeah, I look forward to it way more than anything else on the dvr. Maybe this is why some episodes seem bittersweet - too much anticipation.

[FastOne]

I'm watching Mad men weekly now, the show delivers. I mean practically nothing happens but it works. I'm finding the complete opposite with got.

I'm finding this season of Mad Men as their best. Last episode was probably my favorite episode of the whole series.

And I'm also enjoying Game of Thrones, as I always have, to be honest. Not their best season, but it's still a great TV series IMO.

[baudib]

I mean I think the issue is that so many game-changing deaths have occurred that Westoros and the show creators are in this period of sifting through the pretenders.

How many stories could survive the deaths of characters Ned, Robert and Drogo in season 1?

Many of the most polarizing characters, the ones who really chew the scenery, have died since: Teh Joff, Tywin, Hound. Losing Ygritte and Oberyn made the show a lot less interesting (we need some serious Dorne payoff, soon).

I've never liked Sansa as a character, and she was only getting interesting IMO when paired with LF. I love Arya, but she was a ton more fun when she was with The Hound. I've always felt the show was a lot worse when you had long stretches without Jamie.

I really like the dynamic between Stannis and Jon Snow, and Stannis has become a lot more sympathetic this season. We really need more open Margaery(+Olenna)-Cersei warfare. And for the love of the old gods and the new, give Dany something to do.

[boost]

You're doing this thread wrong.

[rong]

It seems they like to build lots of stories and have them climax simultaneously, even when they don't necessarily interact with each other. Which means lots of slow episodes. It's a shame they can't have different arcs reaching points of interest at different times but they seem to love having a couple of episodes where the entire world has simultaneously simultaneous climaxes.

[wufwugy]

It seems they like to build lots of stories and have them climax simultaneously, even when they don't necessarily interact with each other. Which means lots of slow episodes. It's a shame they can't have different arcs reaching points of interest at different times but they seem to love having a couple of episodes where the entire world has simultaneously simultaneous climaxes.

True. I think the latter half of the season will be much better than the former.

My issue isn't pace or excitement though. It's nonsensical plot and character developments.

[rong]

Which ones?

[wufwugy]

hey let me just lend this bastard and some unruly folk my navy while im fighting a war

hey let me burn this guy to death then 7 hours later say i was wrong and tell his buddy we're getting married

hey let me parade this girl around in such a way that rumor will get out that i stole her from the queen on the day of her son's weddingdeath

hey let me send a one and a half man army to rescue a girl from a fortress


the dany one, for example, is a mix between trying to stick with the source material and make new material, and the mix is just a mess and doesnt work. her ep5 arc was ridiculous.

[wufwugy]

i thought ep4 was fine, but did not like 1-3 and hated ep5. but i think it's possible the reason behind that is this is where D&D are transitioning into fully new territory. they're workign with the source but also not, it's weird. im expecting things to get better tbh, and i wouldnt be surprised if the last two seasons are much better

[jackvance]

Wuf I think yer just being that guy. You know, hate everything that deviates from the books.

[a500lbgorilla]

hey let me just lend this bastard and some unruly folk my navy while im fighting a war

hey let me burn this guy to death then 7 hours later say i was wrong and tell his buddy we're getting married

hey let me parade this girl around in such a way that rumor will get out that i stole her from the queen on the day of her son's weddingdeath

hey let me send a one and a half man army to rescue a girl from a fortress


the dany one, for example, is a mix between trying to stick with the source material and make new material, and the mix is just a mess and doesnt work. her ep5 arc was ridiculous.

The Dany arc is to show that she's every shred of the decisive leader. She's not picked at by the wolves of Meereenese culture. When she bows to it, it's her choice for her reasons on her terms. Typical girl power shortcut. I'm fine with this because the struggle between old families and new Dany in the books takes 4fugging ever.

I can't even remember if Stannis gives Jon ships in the book and why, but that one had me scratching my head. He needs these ships, he said, and unless Titties with the red hair told him to give the ships over, I don't see why he'd part with them.

Johra and Tyrion passing through the Doom... Lotsa book sprawl being trimmed.

[rong]

Haha yeah all good points. I mean all except parading the girl around kinda make sense. But they're also all a bit stupid.

Do none of them things happen in the book?

[rong]

Oh new posts.

[Eric]

It seems they like to build lots of stories and have them climax simultaneously, even when they don't necessarily interact with each other. Which means lots of slow episodes. It's a shame they can't have different arcs reaching points of interest at different times but they seem to love having a couple of episodes where the entire world has simultaneously simultaneous climaxes.

QFT

It's still the best thing on television imo but it's far from perfect.

[wufwugy]

Wuf I think yer just being that guy. You know, hate everything that deviates from the books.

My favorite parts of this season are deviations from the books.

I don't think ADWD translates well to screen. If I was D&D, I would deviate too, but much harder.

What I don't like is that they're deviating then returning, deviating and returning. The Dany stuff is a good example of D&D telling a different story, but then suddenly returning back to a book plot.

I'll be singing a different tune once this season is done, I suspect. I think they just have to make that full transition into their own story, but right now it's a little bit of both.

[wufwugy]

The Dany arc is to show that she's every shred of the decisive leader. She's not picked at by the wolves of Meereenese culture. When she bows to it, it's her choice for her reasons on her terms. Typical girl power shortcut. I'm fine with this because the struggle between old families and new Dany in the books takes 4fugging ever.

If that's how she feels I don't think she thinks for a second that marrying Hizdahr is a good idea.

[a500lbgorilla]

I vaguely remember some quote from the old dame from the flower house about how the people need the escapism of weddings for the distraction or else they get restless. Maybe she's following the same thought. The pits as a spectacle to show a return to normalcy and a wedding to show solidarity among the leadership.

[JKDS]

The biggest problem with this season is that they diverted from their formula.

The previous season, they fell into a grove where (literally) every other episode was exciting and the rest were slow. This time that grove doesnt exist, and it seems like theyre going for a more typical slow build up instead.

Honestly, thats probably because of the source material, with different books being written with a different pace.

[wufwugy]

Liked this episode a lot.

[rong]

Will watch tonight. I hoping for more aria, more Jamie and more tyrrion.

[Eric]

Disappointing when we don't see updates on key characters like Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, Stannis Baratheon and Brienne.

[rong]

If Mad Men was a slow, comfortable, gentle but firm, caress filled, fuck with someone you care about and know just how to please then Game of Thrones would be finding a unsuspecting bitch jogging in a park, dragging her into a bush and raping her in the ass.

[boost]

Mr. Ecko though!

[Renton]

Mr. Ecko though!

He will always be Adebisi.

[jackvance]

Well things just sped up! Great episode. Only the part with Jamie was a bit silly. They just approached the Lannister girl in broad daylight when she wasn't even alone? I mean they came so far just to blow it like that? And then these 3 supposed kick-ass sisters showed up, who just look clumsy? Unconvincing. All the rest was great though. I like the faith guys, Littlefinger spinning stuff again (what side is he on?), Tyrion in action, Arya growing into her new role as nameless and then Sansa getting sucked into the madness. That girl just can't catch a break.

[a500lbgorilla]

Arya stuff was p sweet. Jbear and Tyrion was also sweet.

A lot of people smack talk the sand snake stuff, and I see that, but my real hang up was with the head of the faith playing to cersei's tune. This a man that does exactly as he believes in every step he takes, he wears rags and dirt because his poverty and generosity aligns with his truly held beliefs, he accepts Cercei's help because it cleanses the world of blight. How does a man like that scheme and angle to get Margaery swept into the jaws of the church court?

Why wouldn't a man with 7 gods on his side have patience - surely the sinners will be judged.

[boost]

jack and rilla, I think both your complaints can simply be chalked up to needing to trim fat for the show to actually make it to our screens. GoT has been really good at not having this show, but these two simply seem to be cases of underdeveloped plot lines and character arcs due to lack of overall screen time to go around to all the stories. Because the show has been so good, I tend to treat this like a reverse book, instead of using my imagination to flesh out the visual world, I'm using it to flesh out the leader of the fanatics deviation from his absolutism in favor of power, all the while deceiving himself into believing it is anything but that.

[baudib]

I had this hope that Sansa was growing out of the victim stage and am kind of annoyed that we had another GoT rape scene.

I also think that the scene with the Sand Snake girls was awkward and baddish. I think the ideal way to handle that scene was for the girls to kill Bronn before they're arrested. I love Bronn but I feel like his usefulness is long over, what with Tyrion in Essos and Jamie learning how to fight one-handed. If he gets killed there it gives the girls legit badass aura.

Other than that I loved this episode. The LF-Cersei stuff was fantastic, as well Cersei-Olenna.

[boost]

Upset by rape scene; disappointed with lack of violent death of beloved character scene.

Makes sense.

[boost]

He will always be Adebisi.

So true.

I think Mr. Ecko pops into my head first because I saw him first in Lost, but you're definitely right.

[baudib]

Upset by rape scene; disappointed with lack of violent death of beloved character scene.

Makes sense.

how you can connect the 2 makes zero sense.

Martin is a known misogynist and the HBO people are putting in extra rape scenes for their own purposes. I also think from a character development standpoint, the rape of Sansa is terrible.

I'd guess that the number of battle scenes in GoT that didn't result in fatality can be counted on one hand. There was no reason that fight had to end so unsatisyingly.

[wufwugy]

Sansa's story has heavily strayed from what GRRM wrote. D&D have turned her into a side character. That scene had nothing to do with her. She has no arc. She is perpetual victim. We were told this from the beginning with her wolf dying, but it was too easy to ignore and too easy to see some grand learning experience for her.

All this time I thought she would become a player. Now I know she's a pawn.

[FastOne]

Only the part with Jamie was a bit silly. They just approached the Lannister girl in broad daylight when she wasn't even alone? I mean they came so far just to blow it like that? And then these 3 supposed kick-ass sisters showed up, who just look clumsy? Unconvincing.

Yeah, that whole scene seemed to have been from a really bad TV series, not Game of Thrones, it was bad.

Littlefinger spinning stuff again (what side is he on?)

He's side.

[FastOne]

Sansa's story has heavily strayed from what GRRM wrote. D&D have turned her into a side character. That scene had nothing to do with her. She has no arc. She is perpetual victim. We were told this from the beginning with her wolf dying, but it was too easy to ignore and too easy to see some grand learning experience for her.

All this time I thought she would become a player. Now I know she's a pawn.

I'm hoping she'll toughen up from this experience and starts to take control of her life for once (not that I agree with the rape story at all, BTW... I mean, she knew it was going to happen and still stayed, all because of LittleFinger).

Was really hoping Theon would kill Ramsay before he got to rape her... didn't expect it, just hoped for it.

[boost]

how you can connect the 2 makes zero sense.

Martin is a known misogynist and the HBO people are putting in extra rape scenes for their own purposes. I also think from a character development standpoint, the rape of Sansa is terrible.

I'd guess that the number of battle scenes in GoT that didn't result in fatality can be counted on one hand. There was no reason that fight had to end so unsatisyingly.

I have a feeling that you cannot comprehend the link because you harbor irrationally imbalanced feelings regarding these two acts of violence.

GRRM is a known misogynist? This is not known to me. All I've heard is people giving him accolades for how he writes females. But I also haven't really dug into who he is and all that. Care to elaborate?

I don't disagree that the Sunspear fight was poorly choreographed, poorly set up, and abruptly ended-- but I'm not sure why I'm saying this since I never argued otherwise.

I mean, look, here is what you are arguing: Writers should back off of story arcs completely or write them unnaturally to avoid the inclusion of rape, an act of violence that is sadly part of this world, and certainly part of a medieval styled world.


Now here's something to think about, all those who are outraged at the writers over this almost certainly did not express the same sort of outrage when Bodie executes Wallace. Why? Both shows depicted disgusting and deeply upsetting realities of the world, but one is understood as a sophisticated exploration of dark themes and a window into the unseen underside of our society, while the other is treated as a profane and gratuitous choice by the writers. What is the difference? Both plots naturally progressed to these heinous acts of violence.

TL;DR: Is television, like college campuses, now subject to strict censorship to provide a SJW safe zone for anyone who may or may not feel uncomfortable with the topic of rape?

[baudib]

In the context of GoT, rapes happen.

The fact that HBO is putting in extra rape scenes that don't actually happen to characters from ASOFAI seems gratuitous. For instance, GRRM insists that Jamie did not rape Cersei, but it was filmed in such a way to suggest that's exactly what happened.

The Daernerys wedding rape I get and it fits within the context of the story and the development of her character. The Cersei/Sansa rape scenes don't.

I watch tons of movies/TV shows that feature gratuitous violence in the form of battles, whether they are meant to represent real events (Vikings, Civil War, etc.) or fiction (sci-fi movies, martial arts movies) because I am thoroughly entertained by them.

I do not watch movies about women getting raped for entertainment purposes.

Within the context of a show with as high a body count as GoT, I fully accept and expect major characters, even characters I like, to die. That's ok because the deaths have generally been used well, to advance certain story lines. Killing Bronn would have totally given some meaning to the stupid battle scene in the garden. Hell, killing anyone would have made it better, but Bronn is the most expendable from a plot standpoint as his raison d'être appears to be gone.

[boost]

One type of violence is acceptable to further the story, another isn't. Ok, I think this is a poor stance, but fine-- Oh, wait, that forbidden type of violence is acceptable so long as the source material included it? Let me get this straight. Diverging from the source material, as has been done plenty (from what I understand): Ok. Depicting a specific type of rape: Ok. Diverging from the source material in a way that ends up depicting that exactly same specific rape scenario: Resolutely NOT OK!

I really think you need to step back and acknowledge that Daenerys' rape aired before the phrase "rape culture" was coined, and Sansa's took place after. That is why people are upset at the writers. Being upset by the scene makes sense. Being upset at the writers does not make sense. If you continue to stand by the narrative decision to have Daenerys be raped as the result of a politically motivated arranged marriage, but condemn the same situation involving Sansa, I don't think you're up for a rational discussion of the latter.

[wufwugy]

You can do whatever you want to your heroine as long as it isn't rape. Once it is rape, the audience sees her as weak and dominated and it subverts her role as the agent of her own destiny. I don't mean this as an opinion, but description of the history of cinema. I can't imagine a heroine getting raped and the audience's interest in her story not dying with it. It shouldn't be that way, but it appears to be.

Perhaps some of this is why people are up in arms about the Sansa rape. Perhaps some of it is rape culture accusations. TBH I think the main culprit is shit writing. By the end of s4, we are given a Sansa who has accepted grim reality for what it is, who has indulged her capacity to manipulate. But come s5 and she reverts back to the same naive girl from the beginning. It isn't even that her being raped is a problem, but that her perceived understanding of the situation is the naivete she supposedly cast off in the end of s4.

We were led to believe that she had learned something. GRRM told us she learned something. But D&D decided she didn't. Both bookreaders and showwatchers are mad for ultimately the same reason: D&D changed the character of Sansa between seasons without telling us.

Maybe I shouldn't harp on D&D because if it were me, I'd either want to stick to the books perfectly, using 16 eps per season, or I'd want a complete overhaul that would include things like sinking Dorne beneath the sea and Dany scorching Meereen to the ground the day after she arrived.

[boost]

Hey, so, umm, there's a book thread. Like, I appreciate your insight on this topic, but there is plenty of insight to be made without referencing the books. Seriously, you've been booking up this thread for pages now, and I'm not sure why you think it's ok. While I do think you're smart enough to not spoil, that doesn't give you a special pass to reference the book ITT, because no matter how good you are at not spoiling, it creates an atmosphere in which book talk is tolerated or even encouraged. In your last post, you have a ton to say and can make your point all without talking about the books, so why must you constantly do so?

[wufwugy]

You should give us more credit than that. The show is almost entirely caught up on the books. In fact it's beyond the books with regards to Sansa, which is why I even said anything.

Don't worry, you're not getting spoiled on shit. Almost all of the show is brand new to bookreaders, just with a small handful of caveats for things that will be resolved in the next four episodes.

[boost]

You should give us more credit than that. The show is almost entirely caught up on the books. In fact it's beyond the books with regards to Sansa, which is why I even said anything.

Don't worry, you're not getting spoiled on shit. Almost all of the show is brand new to bookreaders, just with a small handful of caveats for things that will be resolved in the next four episodes.

Right, but this is the show thread. There is a book thread. There are still two threads. People click this thread to discuss the show. I would assume in the other thread you guys talk about both the show and the books. Why do you think your book related insights belong in this thread as opposed to the other? Your assurances don't change any of these facts.

[baudib]

lol@ rational discussion

I'm actually allowed to like whatever I want about the show for whatever reasons I choose, or no reason at all.

I like high-carnage fight scenes and really like them over awkward unresolved battles that feature the survival of now superfluous characters, especially to establish the badassery of new characters.

IT's not that Jaimie raping Cersei is not in the books, it's not believable in the context of the characters of the show.

Danny Episode 2 season 1 vs. Sansa Episode 6 season 5 bear no resemblance to each other.

[rong]

Wasn't Jamie a one armed bandit by then? I thought it made sense him raping her given that he was being made to feel weak and needed to reassert his dominance.

I thought the Sansa rape was a bit unnecessary. I wouldn't have added it in there. But it's not like I'm upset by it.

I agree that the Jamie/Bronn vs 3 young girls scene was pretty awful and one of the worst I've seen in the show. We didn't need a death to make it work though, it needed to make just a little bit of sense. I mean a prince and his bride to be can be got at by 2 guys who look completely wrong in their stolen guard outfits and have no knowledge of the area/building/whereabouts etc yet somehow they get that close to potentially assassinating both (I know that wasn't their goal but nobody else knew this).

Now the 3 girls did have local knowledge, yet thought the best way to get the girl was to just run in there in the middle of the day and attack, and nobody noticed them or tried to stop them (which I guess means they were right, but they shouldn't have been and should have known better).

It just made no sense.

I'm glad Bronn survived though.

[JKDS]

I dont get the fuss over the Sansa rape scene, because I dont see how it furthers the victim storyline yall be upset about.

Take the bathtub scene. That is NOT how Sansa would have reacted when she was with the Joff. Shes got backbone now. From watching this episode, i get the impression that she feels like shes home...that she has allies...and that shes got some plan up her sleeve for the future. She told LittleFinger she wasnt ok with this marriage thing, he said "work it gurrl", and thats what I think shes doing. I mean, we saw how adamant she was about not forgiving Theon; I dont expect her to forgive these people either.

I think she has a plan. I hope its not simply "wait for Stannis to rescue her", and that its more like some epic plan of massively screwing her captor's over (like organizing a rebellion or something). It does seem like whatever plan she has didnt include preventing rape though, and I'm not sure how she could really get out of it anyway. Sex follows marriage, so it was kinda inevitable. Still, I see it more as taking a punch rather than taking a dive. Its not like she could just kill him with Reek standing right there and guards everywhere, so whatever.

But...it is certainly possible that shes still just some whiny twat with her head in the clouds. But I really hope thats not the case and I feel there was enough in this episode to suggest otherwise.

Certainly, we wouldnt need more visible victimization of Sansa to continue that kind of storyline; a simple gloat from Ramsey would do. But if we're trying to establish Sansa's character/feeling, and provide a basis for a change in perspective or a reason for revenge, this scene works.

[wufwugy]

Right, but this is the show thread. There is a book thread. There are still two threads. People click this thread to discuss the show. I would assume in the other thread you guys talk about both the show and the books. Why do you think your book related insights belong in this thread as opposed to the other? Your assurances don't change any of these facts.

I have expressed zero book-related insights here. It has been entirely show.

You're not remotely close to getting a lick of insight gathered from the books. The book thread existed for the purpose of those who know spoilers. Now that we know so few spoilers and that the vast majority of the show is new, we're in the same boat as you.

[boost]

I have expressed zero book-related insights here. It has been entirely show.

You're not remotely close to getting a lick of insight gathered from the books. The book thread existed for the purpose of those who know spoilers. Now that we know so few spoilers and that the vast majority of the show is new, we're in the same boat as you.

So stop talking about the books. Stop talking about what is and isn't in the books. Again, I think you're smart enough to discuss the show without spoiling whatever is left to potentially spoil, but this still remains the show thread. You're being a huge asshat by thinking that since it is now you who has read the books, you can reference them in here. Whether there are major book spoilers left or not, there just is no reason to have that discussion here. Case in point: you're not making these posts in OOTV's GoT thread, and you won't because that thread is heavily moderated and you wouldn't get away with it.

[boost]

lol@ rational discussion

I'm actually allowed to like whatever I want about the show for whatever reasons I choose, or no reason at all.

You're really going to serve up this weak sauce? Yes you can feel however you want and have whatever opinion you want-- but when you bring those feelings and opinions into a discussion, they are liable to be challenged. Retreating back to "I can think whatever I want to think!" is pitiful.

I like high-carnage fight scenes and really like them over awkward unresolved battles that feature the survival of now superfluous characters, especially to establish the badassery of new characters.

In the same way that a new character killing Bronn would have established their badass cred, Ramsey's treatment of Sansa and Theon establish his super villian cred. This is a dark show, and villains can't simply be people that do a few mean and selfish things. Theon burned two innocent little boys and beheaded a man who mentored him all his life. Theon is and has always been a sympathetic character.

IT's not that Jaimie raping Cersei is not in the books, it's not believable in the context of the characters of the show.

Right, so if we see this through to it's conclusion, the show runners are deliberately planting rape scenes to troll us. Makes sense.

Oh, wait, no, it's more likely that your knee jerked and once that happened you were incapable of examining the scene and characters objectively.

Danny Episode 2 season 1 vs. Sansa Episode 6 season 5 bear no resemblance to each other.

It is the exact same scenario. Exactly.

[Renton]

[baudib]

You're really going to serve up this weak sauce? Yes you can feel however you want and have whatever opinion you want-- but when you bring those feelings and opinions into a discussion, they are liable to be challenged. Retreating back to "I can think whatever I want to think!" is pitiful.



In the same way that a new character killing Bronn would have established their badass cred, Ramsey's treatment of Sansa and Theon establish his super villian cred. This is a dark show, and villains can't simply be people that do a few mean and selfish things. Theon burned two innocent little boys and beheaded a man who mentored him all his life. Theon is and has always been a sympathetic character.



Right, so if we see this through to it's conclusion, the show runners are deliberately planting rape scenes to troll us. Makes sense.

Oh, wait, no, it's more likely that your knee jerked and once that happened you were incapable of examining the scene and characters objectively.



It is the exact same scenario. Exactly.

Right, because seeing Ramsay flay men alive or cut their penises off or have his ex-lover's eaten by dogs didn't drive home the villain part.

Danny was a teenage girl who was basically raised to be pimped out by her brother. Sansa was raised properly as a lord's daughter and who we have seen to be evolving into a much more cunning and scheming individual with her own agenda, under the masterful tutelage of perhaps the best in the "Game" -- Littlefinger.

The characters aren't remotely in the same place and for you to fail to recognize that is simply astonishing.

[Renton]

I'm not at all jazzed with this show's ability to write rape, but some of the cultural fascism is getting out of hand with protesting the use of rape in fiction at all. In a show like game of thrones which consistently pushes the envelope (something I'm in favor of) but isn't a particularly good show (something I'm against), it's hard for me to pick a side on an issue like this. I think I'll pick the side that doesn't have radical feminists on it, for now.

[wufwugy]

So stop talking about the books. Stop talking about what is and isn't in the books. Again, I think you're smart enough to discuss the show without spoiling whatever is left to potentially spoil, but this still remains the show thread. You're being a huge asshat by thinking that since it is now you who has read the books, you can reference them in here. Whether there are major book spoilers left or not, there just is no reason to have that discussion here. Case in point: you're not making these posts in OOTV's GoT thread, and you won't because that thread is heavily moderated and you wouldn't get away with it.

I have done nothing of which you accuse me. The only reference of the books I have made is of the divergence. A reference everybody has made many times, and I thought was kosher. I can't say if I shit in your salad, but seriously, there's no need to imagine the worst. I did not do what you say I did.

The sad thing is that I have a great reluctance to post show-specific speculation in this thread because I assume I'm going to be accused of doing something wrong. It's par for the course. Better to just not even post.

[Hawk]

I might come off as an asshole here, but can someone explain how the Sansa scene was actually a rape?

She clearly doesn't like Ramsey and doesn't WANT to marry/fuck him, but she did agree to go through with the marriage and obviously understood what she was signing up for that night. She was scared and uncomfortable, but she never fought it, said no, or made any other indication that she was trying to stop it. And the stuff with Reek/Theon made it even worse, but is that enough to call it rape?

[rong]

She didn't say yes! Have you not been reading spoon's posts I'm the rando thread?

[boost]

I have done nothing of which you accuse me. The only reference of the books I have made is of the divergence. A reference everybody has made many times, and I thought was kosher. I can't say if I shit in your salad, but seriously, there's no need to imagine the worst. I did not do what you say I did.

The sad thing is that I have a great reluctance to post show-specific speculation in this thread because I assume I'm going to be accused of doing something wrong. It's par for the course. Better to just not even post.

You've consistently harped on the divergence of the show from the books. This is the same as talking about what is and isn't in the books. And even if you want to argue that it isn't what purpose does it serve in a thread specifically created for non-book readers who want to discuss the show without book discussion? There is a ton to talk about with regards to the show, and you've talked about a lot of it-- but then you needlessly include references to where the show departs from the books. I feel like referencing the divergences is something that has been happening more, but I don't know when it became kosher or commonplace. My guess is that it coincides with when you became a bookreader.

Now let me reiterate: I don't think you've been spoiling, certainly not in a "lol can't wait til you guys see the red wedding!" kind of way, but book talk tends to breed book talk. Why are we allowing grey areas here when there is no advantage?

lol.

[boost]

I might come off as an asshole here, but can someone explain how the Sansa scene was actually a rape?

She clearly doesn't like Ramsey and doesn't WANT to marry/fuck him, but she did agree to go through with the marriage and obviously understood what she was signing up for that night. She was scared and uncomfortable, but she never fought it, said no, or made any other indication that she was trying to stop it. And the stuff with Reek/Theon made it even worse, but is that enough to call it rape?

She didn't exactly have a choice with Baelish, and she certainly didn't think she was agreeing to rough sex in front of the broken shell of the man who was once like a brother and now who she believes brutally murdered he two young brothers.

And while I think some of the redefining of rape that is currently taking place is ridiculous, her lack of consent here is clearly not consent. At the point of the actual scene, and probably before it, she surely realized she had made a mistake, but there is no way out once she's in Winterfell. Saying "no" doesn't change the outcome, just like it doesn't change whether it was rape or not.

[boost]

Right, because seeing Ramsay flay men alive or cut their penises off or have his ex-lover's eaten by dogs didn't drive home the villain part.

Again, why do you insist that rape is the straw that broke the camels back? It's hard to say, because I haven't experienced either, but I would hazard a guess that severe genital mutilation is objectively worse of an act of violence to suffer than rape. So why is rape the place for outrage? If you're upset at all the dark shit in this show, fine-- but that's not how it's coming across.

Danny was a teenage girl who was basically raised to be pimped out by her brother. Sansa was raised properly as a lord's daughter and who we have seen to be evolving into a much more cunning and scheming individual with her own agenda, under the masterful tutelage of perhaps the best in the "Game" -- Littlefinger.

The characters aren't remotely in the same place and for you to fail to recognize that is simply astonishing.

This is awfully close to "well, what was she wearing?" I'm really not even sure what you're tying to say. What happened to Daenerys certainly had a different tone to it, but when else are we going to have two rapes in one show, both taking place as the consummation of a political marriage the bride wanted no part in?

If you're trying to say that the writers messed up Sansa's arc, because she's supposed to be a bad ass schemer now-- I don't really agree at this point, and I think it's kind of absurd to make that claim before the arc wraps.

And if we can pivot a bit and actually talk about the show-- I'm not sure you're reading the Sansa/Baelish relationship right. He revealed more of his hand to her than he does to others, but I don't think that this is because he sees her as a potential equal. He's playing her just like he's playing everyone else. It just so happens that what it takes to play her is to reveal more than he otherwise would. It's a classic con: convince the mark that they themselves are the ones doing the conning.

[wufwugy]

You've consistently harped on the divergence of the show from the books. This is the same as talking about what is and isn't in the books. And even if you want to argue that it isn't what purpose does it serve in a thread specifically created for non-book readers who want to discuss the show without book discussion? There is a ton to talk about with regards to the show, and you've talked about a lot of it-- but then you needlessly include references to where the show departs from the books. I feel like referencing the divergences is something that has been happening more, but I don't know when it became kosher or commonplace. My guess is that it coincides with when you became a bookreader.

Now let me reiterate: I don't think you've been spoiling, certainly not in a "lol can't wait til you guys see the red wedding!" kind of way, but book talk tends to breed book talk. Why are we allowing grey areas here when there is no advantage?

I think it's bookreaders trying to preempt claims that they're posting with extra knowledge.

I feel like if I were to just have an opinion on something out of the blue it would make people suspect it might be book knowledge. I think that's why a lot of the time the bookies have said something, they include the statement that there has been a divergence.

That said I probably won't be comfortable posting until this season is done, even though there are some pretty big predictions I have that have nothing to do with the books.

[boost]

I think it's bookreaders trying to preempt claims that they're posting with extra knowledge.

I feel like if I were to just have an opinion on something out of the blue it would make people suspect it might be book knowledge. I think that's why a lot of the time the bookies have said something, they include the statement that there has been a divergence.

That said I probably won't be comfortable posting until this season is done, even though there are some pretty big predictions I have that have nothing to do with the books.

Yeah, I mean, I think we've gotten too deep into this, and in the end it doesn't really matter. You're a good dude, and I like seeing your posts in this thread and others. I get where you're coming from in regards to framing any predictions so that people don't think you're spoiling.

*shrug*

[baudib]

Disappointed in this one. Not enough rape or Bronn death.

[boost]

Disappointed in this one. Not enough rape or Bronn death.

lol.

[wufwugy]

Loved it. Finally going places. Bronn death would have been terrible. I can't see a single good reason to kill him.

Disheveled Sansa is fucking hot. It's probably the bed hair.

Loved Jorah dismantling the pit fighters like a real knight should. Fantastic directorial choice. That's how Barristan should have performed against the harpies before a mass of them overwhelmed him.

I'm jonesing for a Brienne rampage, slicing fools left and right as she comes for Sansa.

Looks like the mountains of foreshadowing of sacrificing Shireen was legit. No idea how this is going down. A while back I predicted Stannis would be enraged at Melisandre for even suggesting it and would betray her. But apparently that's not how it's going down. The first half of this season suggested the writers are turning Stannis hero so they can kill him off for shock just like with Oberyn and Robb and Ned to some extent, but now I don't think that. It looks like that was to set up something having to do with Shireen instead.

Tyene's tits are glorious. Pretty sure she's my new favorite (sorry Ros). Maybe it was the lighting, but that body is sleek.

Kinda hate Sam and Gilly banging. I mean, I enjoy that Sam and Gilly have a thing, but I think the only way Sam breaks his vows there is if it comes out of cowardice. But that narrative doesn't work since the writers have gone a long way to show that he is no longer a coward.

Daario is the worst casting ever. He's far too gentle, suave, and normal for anybody to believe him when he proposes mass slaughter of the masters.

Jon Snow has upped his game this season. He's no longer brooding and full of angst.

[wufwugy]

I originally figured Melisandre would sacrifice Shireen somehow without Stannis knowing it, but now that he knows it, I don't see any way he can do it. He would become the biggest villain of the series if he allowed that. Fans would hate him worse than Ramsay or Joffrey for killing his sweet daughter. There's no way he can do it.

[a500lbgorilla]

So v good

PS

So v good

[Eric]

Finally watched Sunday's episode last night (was out of town and didn't bother with hbo go).

Didn't see that coming with Cersei!

It was cool that they showed a lot of characters this time. Would have liked to see Arya but I guess it's hard to fit everything into an hour slot.

[JKDS]

Looks like I was wrong, and Sansa is just always gonna be a victim. Le sigh.

[Farseer]

Lovely episode. Started slowly, but did bring up strong emotions and development for many characters.

How unexpected it would be that Dany would just chop Tyrion's head off. After all, Tyrion's brother killed his father (Mad King), Tyrion's father masterminded the Sack of King's Landing and Tyriön's sister is Usurper's wife. Just chop-chop.