FBI seizes domains of pokerstars, full tilt, ub.. (UPDATE: Howard Lederer Interview)

[BooG690]

Ban d0zer please.

[BooG690]

Antigua says U.S. online poker shutdown was illegal | Reuters

Antigua ain't havin' this!

[Shotglass]

I didn't think it would take almost a week for the international community to start something. I was actually looking for something from Antigua, Isle of Man and Ireland around Tuesday.

[BooG690]

AP/UB issue their statement:

ONLINE POKER BLACK FRIDAY: The Latest Updates | BLUFF Poker News

[surviva316]

To me, this is exceptionally good news. A lot of people have been asking me what I think is going to happen to the money and I've been saying that, in my non-expert opinion, we won't see it for the forseeable future-- if ever.

I'm glad I was wrong (still keeping my fingers crossed, though)

i mean obviously it's ABSURDLY good news and one of the best possible forseable improvements from the situation just a few days ago where i was just crossing my fingers that i'd get it at all much less in 2011 much less within 3 months.

in terms of once i found out this awesome news, i got greedy and was hoping it'd be within the month and not "likely within several weeks"

[Shotglass]

One lawyer's opinion on the merits of the indictments:
U.S. Attorney's Office on Tilt

[ChezJ]

FWIW, I downloaded the latest UB update, got the "U.S. players can't play for real money" message, then proceeded to log in and play for money with no problems. This is from two separate laptops. And not all from my home network... I even did it at the D.C. public library, clearly in the United States.

The only possibilities I can figure are that the feds really are excepting D.C. residents (due to the recent legalization in D.C.) or my account is somehow exempt because 100% of the real money comes from bonus conversions, not "illegal" fund transfers. I think I only ever deposited to UB once, like 7 years ago... maybe their records don't go that far back?

ChezJ

[settecba]

One lawyer's opinion on the merits of the indictments:
U.S. Attorney's Office on Tilt

Really interesting article.

[kdawgy80]

FWIW, I downloaded the latest UB update, got the "U.S. players can't play for real money" message, then proceeded to log in and play for money with no problems. This is from two separate laptops. And not all from my home network... I even did it at the D.C. public library, clearly in the United States.

The only possibilities I can figure are that the feds really are excepting D.C. residents (due to the recent legalization in D.C.) or my account is somehow exempt because 100% of the real money comes from bonus conversions, not "illegal" fund transfers. I think I only ever deposited to UB once, like 7 years ago... maybe their records don't go that far back?

ChezJ

I've been able to play on UB for days so I figure it's either their laziness/ineptitude or just don't care about blocking US players. I stopped though after that G911.com report that UB may not honor wins after Wednesday (4/20) for US players. Not gonna bother if it's not going to matter. Just sit back, wait for my payout and research new sites in the meantime.

[BooG690]

For the record, gambling911 has sucked ass through all this.

By the way, non-US players have had their max payouts cut to $250 at Cereus. Cereus' final days are probably upon us.

[WeaselT]

YouTube - south park-they took our jobs

[Shotglass]

For the record, gambling911 has sucked ass through all this.

I agree, +10000

[kevster]

Can we rewind to last week cause I just thought of something I should've said real early on in this. Ok. So it's now last Friday. Ok. Ready......

[kevster]

So long and thanks for all the fish

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

if anyone has emailed FTP support, from which of their emails did you get a response from? I just emailed their uk address.

[Donachello]

if anyone has emailed FTP support, from which of their emails did you get a response from? I just emailed their uk address.

bikes and I have each sent 4+ e-mail to FTP, he even has black card and neither of us has gotten anything besides an automated response afaik.

Mine were to the .co.uk

[NightGizmo]

I haven't emailed FTP, but this morning I received this email:

Dear NightGizmo,

We regret to inform you that due to recent actions by the U.S. government, Full Tilt Poker is still unable to facilitate 'real money' play, deposits, or withdrawals by players based in the United States, including the processing of any pending rakeback payments.

Rest assured that our technical and legal teams are working towards a solution that would allow us to return these funds and account balances to you as soon as possible. As always, your player account remains safe and secure, and we apologize for any inconvenience caused by these actions.

We will keep you updated with any information as it becomes available. Thank you for your continued support.

Sincerely,

The Full Tilt Poker Affiliate Team

[HarleyGuy13]

Saw this and it made me chuckle. There is a funny cartoon on LB's page!

Leak Buster

[bikes]

looks like people playing at UB are pretty fucked

[rowhousepd]

I haven't emailed FTP, but this morning I received this email:

Yup, that's pretty much what everyone is getting I think. Here's what I got in direct response to my inquiry about withdrawing my funds (which I got at the same time):

Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker support.

Unfortunately, due to recent actions by the U.S. government, Full Tilt Poker is currently unable to facilitate 'real money' play, deposits or withdrawals by players based in the United States.

Please rest assured that player accounts remain safe and secure and our technical and legal teams are working to have your money returned to you as soon as possible.

We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience caused and will keep you up to date with additional information as it becomes available.

Thank you for your understanding,

Full Tilt Poker

Nice. Thanks Full Tilt. Awesome. Also, notice the way they said "due to recent actions by the U.S. government" ... as if to suggest they are in noooo way accountable for any of this. I'm not suggesting that the US/DoJ/FBI was my any means in the right, but it just kind of pisses me off to hear them subtly suggest they only have our best intentions at heart. Uuggh. Whatever. Just cut me a check & let's be done with it.

[rowhousepd]

looks like people playing at UB are pretty fucked

You mean in general, or did something new develop in the last couple of days? Didn't see anything on them since black Friday.

[Keith]

You mean in general, or did something new develop in the last couple of days? Didn't see anything on them since black Friday.

cashouts limited to 250$ per week for one, taking on the DOJ under world trade rules for another.

[revolvingiris]

cashouts limited to 250$ per week for one, taking on the DOJ under world trade rules for another.

I feel really, really bad for people who have money on UB. It doesn't do much but I am sorry

[daven]

legal content re the doj/fbi stuff from a poker player with a clue
www.mpethypoker.com

[CBAT]

lol Antigua says U.S. online poker shutdown was illegal | Reuters

[EasyPoker]

Karak rants 4-25.mp3

Karak rant from 2p2. It concerns Stars/Tilt and how they lied to us. It's the first proper anti-Stars/Tilt rant I've ever heard, seeing as most of the industry has been like fuck the DoJ.

Kinda tries to expose the naivety of many people who were like "Stars really cared about us man"...Karak is saying, no they didn't...Open your eyes, they're just as bent as any other international corporation.

[rowhousepd]

Karak rants 4-25.mp3

Karak rant from 2p2. It concerns Stars/Tilt and how they lied to us. It's the first proper anti-Stars/Tilt rant I've ever heard, seeing as most of the industry has been like fuck the DoJ.

Yes! Just listened, and I couldn't agree more. Since this whole thing started last week I've noticed how people think there are only to two opposing stances one can take about the shut down, and I I don't think there has to be a strict dichotomy. You can absolutely see the hypocrisy & absurdity of the US's condemnation of online poker while it endorses other forms of gambling, and you can maintain that DoJ's completely overreached their jurisdiction, but you can also still condemn Stars & Tilt for the way they conducted themselves & the impact they have had on the players, many of whom depended on them operating in a legitimate and transparent way.

Yes, of course, like 99% of the other people in this forum I believe playing poker online should be a right of anyone in US, and at the moment the laws do not even make it clear that poker is even gambling anyway, etc., etc.. But this fact did not give Stars & FT the license to lie to the players (which they have repeatedly) about acting legally & doing nothing wrong. IF they were going to service US player then they pretty much had to find other ways to allow payments to be processed ... but they didn't HAVE to -- they could have downsized their operations and exited the market the way Party did years ago. It would have devastated their bottom line and left US players w/ fewer options of course, but they didn't have to collude w/ banks to commit fraud and bribe bank officials to process payments, and jeopardize their bankrolls & livelihoods of the players. In the end they were going exactly what any casino needs to prevent their customers from doing -- cheating.

I just think there's certainly plenty of blame we can place on these sites ... even though we all know the deeper issue is that we should be allowed in the first place.

[PlayToWin]

I wonder what their liability is regarding the DOJ decisions. They are not based in the US. If they decide to cut their losses, can they just say, screw the DOJ, or are they still responsible under some international laws? Or do they have to come to an agreement due to frozen accounts achieved by the DOJ?

[boost]

I wonder what their liability is regarding the DOJ decisions. They are not based in the US. If they decide to cut their losses, can they just say, screw the DOJ, or are they still responsible under some international laws? Or do they have to come to an agreement due to frozen accounts achieved by the DOJ?

It seems like if they say "fuck the DOJ and the horse they rode in on!" then they forfeit the seized accounts and the specific persons named in the indictments give up travel privileges to the US and to any cooperative state with an extradition treaty. Seeing as the DOJ is asking for billions, and we could probably assume that the seized accounts hold < 1 billion, it would seem that they would really only be giving up travel privileges. Not sure how international law plays into this though.

[rowhousepd]

It seems like if they say "fuck the DOJ and the horse they rode in on!" then they forfeit the seized accounts and the specific persons named in the indictments give up travel privileges to the US and to any cooperative state with an extradition treaty. Seeing as the DOJ is asking for billions, and we could probably assume that the seized accounts hold < 1 billion, it would seem that they would really only be giving up travel privileges. Not sure how international law plays into this though.

Except that there a HUUUGE value in NOT doing this because they are presumnably still going keep their companies going and to try to stay competitive in other markets outside of the US. I mean think of what the ramifications would be to other future customers (& current players) who will know that not only were Stars/FT knowingly involved in money laundering, bank fraud, collusion, & bribery in the states, but they refused to give the players (the real victims here) ther funds back. They screwed their customers --- big time.

In the states they were more or less our only options unless we wanted to play at tiny sites w/ no actions. In the UK & abroad, players would have to add that to the reasons NOT to play at FT or Stars and why Party might be the best option. After all, they did the exact opposite years ago & left the US because they knew it would be very very bad business. But if Stars/FT denied funds in the US how could anyone feel safe w/ them? How could they not think it's possible they were violating the financial laws in other countries as well that would make all players just as much as a risk.

The only reason I think I'll get my funds back is because of this. If they were thinking of closing up shop all together, then I'd be worried. But screwing the players like that would I'm sure send everyone running to Party & iPoker in a hurry.

[givememyleg]

Karak rants 4-25.mp3

Karak rant from 2p2. It concerns Stars/Tilt and how they lied to us. It's the first proper anti-Stars/Tilt rant I've ever heard, seeing as most of the industry has been like fuck the DoJ.

Kinda tries to expose the naivety of many people who were like "Stars really cared about us man"...Karak is saying, no they didn't...Open your eyes, they're just as bent as any other international corporation.

Good rant, added to Youtube since dling a file is pretty lame - YouTube - QuadJacks Podcast - Karak Rants About Stars and Tilt (4/25/11)

[rpm]

i don't understand why it being "online" makes it illegal as opposed to it being anywhere else.

also, if it being played "online" makes it somehow more harmful than in a casino (where it's legal) i don't understand why online sports betting is legal.

so why are these people hell-bent on the idea that online poker is so bad? what's the differentiating factor between playing it live/online, assuming it's not on a rigged site like AP. and what's the differentiating factor between betting on a game which is (beyond a doubt to anyone who has bothered to investigate the mechanics of it) governed by personal skill and betting on something like a horse race/sports game.

i haven't investigated any of this to any real degree at all. so i'm obviously ill-informed and/or naive in my views here. so i'll stop typing and go back to that assignment i was doing 35342 distractions ago.

[rpm]

and, by the way, has anyone read "cowboys full: the story of poker"? basically a history of the development of poker into what we know it as today. good read.

[Trons]

Karak rants 4-25.mp3

Karak rant from 2p2. It concerns Stars/Tilt and how they lied to us. It's the first proper anti-Stars/Tilt rant I've ever heard, seeing as most of the industry has been like fuck the DoJ.

Kinda tries to expose the naivety of many people who were like "Stars really cared about us man"...Karak is saying, no they didn't...Open your eyes, they're just as bent as any other international corporation.

I haven't actually heard anybody say that stars really cares about us, as individuals, they care about us as a customer, like any other corporation. To say that all corporations are bent, regardless of whether they are international or not, seems kind of, well, stupid.

Businesses that provide a service or entertainment need customers. The corporation providing the service needs to maintain that customer base or it's going out of business.

I also think that people had a pretty good idea, since 2006, that these sites were doing something not quite right to get our money, but nobody cared until we couldn't play anymore. I also think that there is a strong case, based on what I read, that the charges are not as air tight as some has made it out to be and it'll be an interesting trial, if the DoJ allows it to go to trial.

[Trons]

i don't understand why it being "online" makes it illegal as opposed to it being anywhere else.

I don't think anybody has said it's illegal because it's online. Most people hold to the idea that in the law's eyes, in the US, online poker is not illegal.

also, if it being played "online" makes it somehow more harmful than in a casino (where it's legal) i don't understand why online sports betting is legal.

Online could make it more "harmful" then a casino because, theoretically, you'd have easier access to it and you would not be dealing with (in the idea of poker) trained dealers who could potentially spot an addict. Not that I believe a dealer would, just saying. I thought online sports betting was specifically illegal.

so why are these people hell-bent on the idea that online poker is so bad? what's the differentiating factor between playing it live/online, assuming it's not on a rigged site like AP. and what's the differentiating factor between betting on a game which is (beyond a doubt to anyone who has bothered to investigate the mechanics of it) governed by personal skill and betting on something like a horse race/sports game.

Not my personal view, but there are some out there saying that, as previously mentioned, online is bad because of the easy access. If you're a degen gambler, you could, conceivably, sit down before work and donk off a buy-in or two, ect. If you have to go to a casino, that becomes much more difficult.

Being online also means that the sites can be based anywhere in the world, which means they probably do not fall under US jurisdiction when it comes to regulating. And your comparison about sports betting isn't all that accurate because I've known sports bettors who do a lot of research into their games, spreads, ect that it would be considered a skill. The biggest difference is the sports bettor has no direct control over the result, which isn't always true in Poker. In poker, the person playing can control things like bet size, pot size, ect to help determine the outcome of the hand.

i haven't investigated any of this to any real degree at all. so i'm obviously ill-informed and/or naive in my views here. so i'll stop typing and go back to that assignment i was doing 35342 distractions ago.

You should research it more. It's a pretty interesting topic, and it's pretty cool to see how some people attack (term used loosely) poker as gambling, and how people defend it by saying it's predominately a game of skill and therefore not gambling.

[StarGrinder]

i don't understand why it being "online" makes it illegal as opposed to it being anywhere else.

also, if it being played "online" makes it somehow more harmful than in a casino (where it's legal) i don't understand why online sports betting is legal.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Why is it okay for people to blow $1k up in Detroit or AC playing roulette, or spending half their paycheck on scratch-offs and fucking bingo, but I can't play a low stakes poker game online. And I'm still paying taxes on anything I cash out. WTF US govt

[rpm]

Being online also means that the sites can be based anywhere in the world, which means they probably do not fall under US jurisdiction when it comes to regulating. And your comparison about sports betting isn't all that accurate because I've known sports bettors who do a lot of research into their games, spreads, ect that it would be considered a skill. The biggest difference is the sports bettor has no direct control over the result, which isn't always true in Poker. In poker, the person playing can control things like bet size, pot size, ect to help determine the outcome of the hand.
.

i wasn't saying (at least didn't mean to say) there is no edge in sports betting. i was saying it was parallel to poker in that regard because there most definitely IS an edge possible to gained in sports betting. i also originally typed out the point about there being no direct control over the result in sports betting, but deleted it because in that respect it's the exact same as poker (ie we can "get it in good" and still lose, just as a sports bettor can make a +EV bet and then have his team's 5 best players break their legs during warm-up).

if online sports betting is illegal in the states, i obviously have no point. if online sports betting isn't illegal in the states, i still probably have no point.

thanks for your response.

[rpm]

I don't think anybody has said it's illegal because it's online. Most people hold to the idea that in the law's eyes, in the US, online poker is not illegal.
.

well, americans can go to a casino and lose as much of their net worth as they want (if they're losing enough, the casino will probably entice them to stay with free/cheap suites and drinks etc. they certainly do that here in oz) playing games of skill, such as poker or blackjack as well as games of pure chance (and certain long-term loss) such as roulette, 5bazillion different types of slot machine, cash wheels, bingo tickets, etc etc name your game

and americans cannot go online and play poker for money.

thus leading me to believe it's illegal because it's online. as contrasted to being legal when played at a casino.

[Jack Sawyer]

I haven't actually heard anybody say that stars really cares about us, as individuals, they care about us as a customer, like any other corporation. To say that all corporations are bent, regardless of whether they are international or not, seems kind of, well, stupid.

Businesses that provide a service or entertainment need customers. The corporation providing the service needs to maintain that customer base or it's going out of business.

I also think that people had a pretty good idea, since 2006, that these sites were doing something not quite right to get our money, but nobody cared until we couldn't play anymore. I also think that there is a strong case, based on what I read, that the charges are not as air tight as some has made it out to be and it'll be an interesting trial, if the DoJ allows it to go to trial.

I wanted to write exactly this, but I decided not to do it, as my wording would be a lot more stern and quasi-offensive.

Good post.

[Trons]

well, americans can go to a casino and lose as much of their net worth as they want (if they're losing enough, the casino will probably entice them to stay with free/cheap suites and drinks etc. they certainly do that here in oz) playing games of skill, such as poker or blackjack as well as games of pure chance (and certain long-term loss) such as roulette, 5bazillion different types of slot machine, cash wheels, bingo tickets, etc etc name your game

and americans cannot go online and play poker for money.

thus leading me to believe it's illegal because it's online. as contrasted to being legal when played at a casino.

This maybe where the misunderstanding lies. I've not been told that I can't go online to play poker for real money and I've never heard of a federal law that states that. This is one reason why the DoJ can't go after players.

Now, I understand that PS, FT and UB are not allowing US players right now, but I think a lot of that is because they are being indicted and were forced to stop providing the service to us under the indictment. It also stands to reason that they don't want us transferring funds to and from other people on the site while they get this all figured out.

I, for one, am really upset. I've never deposited money onto those sites. I built my bankroll by being staked for $50 and went from there. I've paid my $50 back and the money that is sitting in my accounts are money I won/earned.

Where the poker/sports betting analogy falls apart is that if you use the legal definition of gambling found here: Gambling Law & Legal Definition

A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence,

You'll see that sports betting is a future contingent event not under his control or influence. Any poker hand, unless you're all in preflop, you can influence the hand and/or how much you win by the choices you make, regardless of the hand you have. Sports betting, you can make informed decisions on who to bet on and what spread to take, but, ultimately, it's other people who will decide the outcome of that particular event and therefore it is outside your control, once the initial wager is placed.

[Shotglass]

This showdown between the US gub'ment and THE REST of the world has been brewing for a long time:
WTO rules against US gambling laws • The Register and is kicking off again: Antigua says U.S. online poker shutdown was illegal | Reuters.

I'm no legal expert but in order for fraud to be committed there has to be some sort of loss by the victims. There was no fraud committed in that the banks profited enormously by partnering with Stars and FTP. I completely disagree with the Karak rant in that disguising payment codings are STANDARD procedures. The porn industry does it ALL OF THE TIME.

This is a good read: 2011 April 22 | mpethypoker.com.

The FBI should have taught everyone something with their investigation, follow the money. Who stands to profit the most from the removal of Stars, FTP and UB from the market?
Why online poker should be legal - Apr. 26, 2011

[Shotglass]

And the hits just keep on comming:
ONLINE POKER BLACK FRIDAY: The Latest Updates | BLUFF Poker News

[bikes]

New cashout option available to me on Stars - Poker News - News, Views and Gossip

[drmcboy]

quote from thread (from random 2+2er)

Pokerstars Rep said he is hopeful/expects cashouts to be available for US players as early as today, if not today, within a few days. He says after cashouts are made, players should have their money within a couple of days.

Cashout methods will be different based on account balances. It's all gotta go in one cashout. If you have less than $1, you're screwed, but relax it's only a dollar. 10 grand + = bank wire, check, or e-checks. 50 grand plus = just bank wire. Strongly recommend e-check payment method for all players below $50,000. Don't know what he said for under 10 grand.

T$ will be converted to real money.

FPP discussions are happening with US government. Hoping to obtain approval for process of FPP redemption. Want to retain options for VIP store. Just waiting for discussion and approval from gov. Then it would be made available. But cashouts have been top priority. Working on FPP issue.

[BooG690]

Just put in a withdrawal request in (direct bank transfer for $2,600+). Will keep updated.

Bank wire has a minimum of $50,000. Jeezus.

[drmcboy]

it doesn't seem to be working 50k+ plus yet, it says the max is 49,000

[StarGrinder]

$50k minimum on direct BT? Gad-fucking-zooks!

[WeaselT]

Tried to cashout. My bank acct has 10 digits but they only give my space for 9. WTF? Emailed them, anybody know whats up with that?

[boost]

Except that there a HUUUGE value in NOT doing this because they are presumnably still going keep their companies going and to try to stay competitive in other markets outside of the US. I mean think of what the ramifications would be to other future customers (& current players) who will know that not only were Stars/FT knowingly involved in money laundering, bank fraud, collusion, & bribery in the states, but they refused to give the players (the real victims here) ther funds back. They screwed their customers --- big time.

In the states they were more or less our only options unless we wanted to play at tiny sites w/ no actions. In the UK & abroad, players would have to add that to the reasons NOT to play at FT or Stars and why Party might be the best option. After all, they did the exact opposite years ago & left the US because they knew it would be very very bad business. But if Stars/FT denied funds in the US how could anyone feel safe w/ them? How could they not think it's possible they were violating the financial laws in other countries as well that would make all players just as much as a risk.

What the hell are you talking about. The seized funds have nothing to do with giving players their balances back. Stars, FTP, and the DOJ are all cooperating to make sure players get their account balances back. These are completely separate issues.

The only reason I think I'll get my funds back is because of this. If they were thinking of closing up shop all together, then I'd be worried. But screwing the players like that would I'm sure send everyone running to Party & iPoker in a hurry.

Why would they close up shop? You are linking unrelated things together and getting all confused. Like you said, they will see to it that US players get their money back, because if they don't their reputation is ruined and no one will trust them anywhere. But this has nothing to do with whether they say "Fuck you!" to the DOJ when it comes time to serve jail time and/or pay massive fines. They are simply unrelated issues.

[fjuanl]

Tried to cashout. My bank acct has 10 digits but they only give my space for 9. WTF? Emailed them, anybody know whats up with that?

Lots of people seemed to have that problem. Apparently its fixed now