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pgil
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07-29-2006, 11:48 PM
Post subject: Einstein's theory of gravity
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
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as I understand it, Einstein claimed that mass causes a curvature in space-time, and this curvature is gravity.
the classic graphical depiction of this is a 3-dimensional cone-shape.
leaving aside the philosophical problems of space being a thing that can be bent (or of time being a dimension), this view of gravity does not seem to work/cannot work when viewed from the perspective of all planes at once. I realize that this is a somewhat confusing statement, and I will try to clarify.
hold out an outstretched small towel, and place a poker chip in the middle. this creates the einsteinian (?) picture of gravity (a cone shaped deformation of space). now, what happens to this deformation if you approach it from the underside, it is no longer a curvature that will attract an object, but is one that will repel an object. clearly something is amiss.
As far as I can imagine, there is no way to graphically represent the gravity of an object on more than one plane at one time. doing so would create an actual vaccuum of space in between the object causing the deformation and the outside world. ie. imagine that the cone shaped deformation existed in all planes at once, what would it look like? you would have an object surrounded on all sides by nothingness (and by nothingness, i mean completely nothing. there would not even be space surrounding it). this would clearly meet the definition of a black hole. but, it would also mean that any object that produced a gravitational effect would be a black hole.
thoughts.
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Miffed22001
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give it up human
Resistance is futile
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jackvance
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You are confusing the visualisation of the theory with the reality of it. Or in other words, us humans are limited to 3 dimensional perception, and mapping a 4-dimensional space onto a 3d one is only for clarification, it is not meant to be accurate. So you cannot draw conclusions from it. It's as if you take a picture of a building (3d mapped onto a 2d space) and then bend the picture and draw the conclusion that the building can easily be bended.
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pgil
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Full House
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how would time affect this? time being the '4th' dimension.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jackvance
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We cannot perceive this; We cannot even imagine this, because even in our mind we are limited to 3 dimensions. Us humans are made through evolution to survive and reproduce, not to understand the universe. As such we're limited. The only way we can objectively try to understand 4 dimensions is through mathematical formulae.
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Greedo017
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what you talkin bout willis
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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pgil
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Full House
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if we cannot imagine 4 dimensions, or what that would be like, how do you take seriously a theory that posits 4 dimensions?
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
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Because not only is it mathematically sound - ie, all observed occurrences are explained by this theory - it also has predictive value. This means it is either true, or, more likely, a good approximation of truth inside a larger truth (such as newtonian mechanics has proven to be).
Btw I've also never seen atoms, air (as in, oxygen), radiowaves, microwaves, etc..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Tomazores
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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>>if we cannot imagine 4 dimensions, or what that would be like, how do you take seriously a theory that posits 4 dimensions?<<
It is much easier if you imagine the difference between 3 and 2 dimensions. A good book that helps is called Flatland.
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Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ... Winston Churchill
A smart person will learn from their mistakes, but a truly wise person will learn from the mistakes of others.
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Bailey
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Einstein LIKES BOYS!!!1!
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Tomazores
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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from what i understand, Einstien was quite a ladies man.
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Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ... Winston Churchill
A smart person will learn from their mistakes, but a truly wise person will learn from the mistakes of others.
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jackvance
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tomazores
from what i understand, Einstien was quite a ladies man.
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no he wasn't
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Tomazores
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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you may want to check this link:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...eut/index.html
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Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ... Winston Churchill
A smart person will learn from their mistakes, but a truly wise person will learn from the mistakes of others.
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ItDepends
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Straight
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jackvance: my college prof at Illinois was working on visualisation of the 5th dimensions. He showed us a bit of his study but I was 100% lost.
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Miffed22001
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ItDepends
jackvance: my college prof at Illinois was working on visualisation of the 5th dimensions. He showed us a bit of his study but I was 100% lost.
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no wonder you dropped outta college 
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Zodiac Killer
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Because not only is it mathematically sound - ie, all observed occurrences are explained by this theory - it also has predictive value. This means it is either true, or, more likely, a good approximation of truth inside a larger truth (such as newtonian mechanics has proven to be).
Btw I've also never seen atoms, air (as in, oxygen), radiowaves, microwaves, etc..
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I've seen microwaves. As a matter of fact, I have one that I put Ramen Noodles in.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zodiac Killer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Because not only is it mathematically sound - ie, all observed occurrences are explained by this theory - it also has predictive value. This means it is either true, or, more likely, a good approximation of truth inside a larger truth (such as newtonian mechanics has proven to be).
Btw I've also never seen atoms, air (as in, oxygen), radiowaves, microwaves, etc..
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I've seen microwaves. As a matter of fact, I have one that I put Ramen Noodles in. |
have u seen a UFO yet?
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Lukie
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Quantum mechanics vs theory of relativity.
Discuss.
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Rockymv
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quantum mechanics vs theory of relativity.
Discuss.
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superstrings. gg.
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pgil
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Full House
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superstring isnt a theory. it offers no testable predictions.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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pgil
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Btw I've also never seen atoms, air (as in, oxygen), radiowaves, microwaves, etc..
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you may not have seen them, but there are those that have seen them using instrumentation. and they are not "impossible to imagine".
According to Wolfgang Pauli's Exclusion principle (1925), certain pairs of subatomic particles, even when separated by great distances, can instantaneously "know" what the other is doing...the phenomena was proved in 1997 when physicists at the university of geneva sent photons seven miles in opposite direction and demonstrated that interfering with one provoked an instantaneous response in the other (pgs 145-146, A short history of nearly everything, Bryson, B.) not as good as a brief history of time, but much easier to read.
hard to imagine how nothing can move faster than the speed of light, yet this is so. another hole for einstein.
clearly not "all observable occurrences" can be explained via einstein.
and the differences in predictive value of newtonian mechanics vs einsteins theory of gravity are very small. a reworked or modified version could probably be produced to close the gaps further. and just because its the best we have currently, doesnt mean we cant question it
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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vqc
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
superstring isnt a theory. it offers no testable predictions.
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faith in string theory = faith in god
discuss.
yes that means u boost. =)
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pgil
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
superstring isnt a theory. it offers no testable predictions.
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faith in string theory = faith in god |
does not equal, but is equivalent to...
discuss
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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pgil
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Full House
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string theory is a good example of a mathematically sound theoretical position gone completely awry. it posits up to and including 20 dimensions, at least that was the last number i heard. the math in the theory is sound, but the theory is sadly lacking in the philosophy department. its connection with reality has been strained so much by its reliance on pure mathematics.
besides, if we allow for the curvature of space, and extra dimensions, this drastically changes the mathematics that can be used. and i would be less likely to trust the outcome of math that requires curved space and extra dimensions. again because of a lack of connection with reality.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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vqc
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
Quote:
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Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
superstring isnt a theory. it offers no testable predictions.
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faith in string theory = faith in god |
does not equal, but is equivalent to...
discuss |
correct
discuss
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swiggidy
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quantum mechanics vs theory of relativity.
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These really aren't in opposition. Quantum mechanics covers the topics that would be linked by a theory of relativity.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
superstring isnt a theory. it offers no testicle predictions.
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FYP
I was going to write a post about how it is impossible to have a civil discussion on FTR. Then I read the above post. I can't even describe how much I hate myself right now.
{NOTE: I wrote this before the previous five comments}
{EDIT: Ok, didn't miss much}
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Rockymv
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
string theory is a good example of a mathematically sound theoretical position gone completely awry. it posits up to and including 20 dimensions, at least that was the last number i heard. the math in the theory is sound, but the theory is sadly lacking in the philosophy department. its connection with reality has been strained so much by its reliance on pure mathematics.
besides, if we allow for the curvature of space, and extra dimensions, this drastically changes the mathematics that can be used. and i would be less likely to trust the outcome of math that requires curved space and extra dimensions. again because of a lack of connection with reality.
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lol. as a philosophy major i usually think science is pretty funny. scientists generally seem to look down on philosophy, but philosophy is what today's main scientific disputes are centered on. half of the scientific community believe (like you) that string theory is stupid because it's fundamentally unverifiable. whether you realize it or not, you think this because of karl popper's notion of falsifiability. the other half loves string theory, because they care more about elegance and explanatory power than whether it can be "proven" (because no theory ever can). these people are having their thinking informed by thomas kuhn's idea of paradigms and scientific revolutions. it's just so hilarious...the different sides of this debate seem like they're speaking a different language, because they can't get clear on the philosophical framework for what they're doing.
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ItDepends
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Straight
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btw
Way to much content for the commune
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pgil
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Full House
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i think this because it offers no testable predictions. thats not a theory. it has no place in a scientific debate. in a philosophical debate, sure.
it has explanatory power in exactly the same way as a belief/reliance on god does. a little deus ex stringina and everything is explained. all of the forces are collapsed into a single force. yippee.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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pgil
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Full House
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FWIW i am currently reading the essential tension, which as you may or may not know is a collection of essays by thomas kuhn.
its good. clearly written by a philosopher and not an english major though.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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BobbySalami
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Wow, every single long winded reply in this thread makes me think that there is some kind of inside crazy funny joke in there somewhere.
Then I realize that there is not, and wish I had other things like this enter my mind rather then tits, ass, beer, poker, and porn.
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If you wanna turn your daddy parts ORANGE eat some cheetos and watch some porn!
Currently sucking at life!
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vqc
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BobbySalami
Wow, every single long winded reply in this thread makes me think that there is some kind of inside crazy funny joke in there somewhere.
Then I realize that there is not, and wish I had other things like this enter my mind rather then tits, ass, beer, poker, and porn.
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Tits + Ass + Beer + poker + porn is a more likely Theory of Everything than String Theory is.
I mean wat event in ur life could u NOT explain using TABPP?
Furthermore, I predict with 100% certainty that I can find porn on the intertron tomorow at 12:03PM. I cannot do that with string theory.
TABPP > string theory.
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BobbySalami
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Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by vqc
Tits + Ass + Beer + poker + porn is a more likely Theory of Everything than String Theory is.
I mean wat event in ur life could u NOT explain using TABPP?
Furthermore, I predict with 100% certainty that I can find porn on the intertron tomorow at 12:03PM. I cannot do that with string theory.
TABPP > string theory.
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So where do I get my honorary doctorate?
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If you wanna turn your daddy parts ORANGE eat some cheetos and watch some porn!
Currently sucking at life!
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tomazores
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I just can't call <10 a ladiesman sry..
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you may not have seen them, but there are those that have seen them using instrumentation. and they are not "impossible to imagine".
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That's just wrong. We are human beings made for survival and reproduction.. and you're basing the validity of a theory on whether or not you can imagine it in your head?! Btw I can also "imagine" what 4d is like when I compare it to 3d=>2d. But that's just a semantic battle I'm afraid.
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clearly not "all observable occurrences" can be explained via einstein.
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I covered this already. It doesn't mean it's blatantly wrong or anything. Like how Newtonian mechanics has proven to be "a good approximation when speeds aren't too great and masses aren't too small", I expect (hope) Einstein's theories to be a good approximation that explains things inside a larger "truth". That truth being the Unified Theory.
Until we can find that unified theory, every theory is flawed, or incomplete.
I get the impression from your initial posts that you doubt time is anything more than just 'the difference between 2 minutes ago and now'. Well, consider this then. Time slows down when speed goes up. This has been scientifically proven by comparing an atomic clock on earth with one inside a satellite. So apparently time is not how we perceive it, not some monolithic constant that governs everything equally.. but it goes faster or slower depending on how fast an object moves (compared to its point of reference). This should atleast open up in your mind the possibility that time may not be how you perceive it.. and as such, may make it more conceivable that it is a dimension..
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but philosophy is what today's main scientific disputes are centered on
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That may sound flattering for philosophers, but it's not something scientists care much about. Rightfully so. Most of philosophy is a total waste of time.. sorry.. and I know some of it has its (scientific) merits, but the basis has to be scientific truth.
Quote:
Furthermore, I predict with 100% certainty that I can find porn on the intertron tomorow at 12:03PM. I cannot do that with string theory.
TABPP > string theory.
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I can posit scenario's with a possibility greater than zero that falsify your theory (like, you getting a seizure or heart attack.. power failure in your area.. computer problems.. all preventing you from finding porn on the internet at 12:03), hence the 100% certainty has been disproven, falsifying also the conclusion that TABPP>string theory.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Greedo017
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Time slows down when speed goes up. This has been scientifically proven by comparing an atomic clock on earth with one inside a satellite.
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I saw a show where they synchronized two atomic clocks, put one on a plane and flew it around the world, then compared them, and the one on the plane was slow.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
I saw a show where they synchronized two atomic clocks, put one on a plane and flew it around the world, then compared them, and the one on the plane was slow.
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Yep.. speed increased, thus time slowed down.
This (time speeding up or slowing down) is probably something that is near impossible to imagine in your head.. which doesn't make it less true however.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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pantherhound
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Is string theory related to mulitiple universes? I did a course at Uni that said there was about a 1 in 10 billion chance of the laws of nature having the exact values that allow life to exist, so logically there should be 10 billion universes, however the other ones have no life because the chemistry is slightly or drastically wrong.
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jackvance
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String theory is basically this.. I haven't been following it recently so I don't know what dimension they're at now (they seemed to increase constantly), but let's say 8. So according to this theory, the entire universe is one string. (or more) So all there is, is this string. Everything you see, taste, feel.. TV, beer.. tits&asses.. it's all just our 3d perception of the reality of this string. And this string is 8 dimensional. That is not something you can imagine.
Now, why a string and not, say, a balloon? Because a string has certain mathematical properties we need, called harmonics. Like if you swing a rope around, it'll vibrate. But these vibrations can be an infinite number of big or small. But in the case of a string, its begin- and endpoint are fixed, so there are set rules for the oscillations. Here is an extremely sucky drawing in paint of what I mean:
So, then we have this 8 dimensional string that is oscillating in place.. so how come we can see so many different things? Well, that is because we can see only 3 of its dimensions. (or 4, if you count time.. which we can experience too) To understand this, imagine you are living in 2d, on a piece of paper. You can only see what's on the paper. So I stick my finger through the paper.. then you can see the cross-section of my finger. A bunch of circles and lotsa red, with a white circle (my bones) in the middle probably. And then I shove my whole arm through it.. but what you see is 4 new circles emerging (my other fingers), and then a bigger circle suddenly (my arm), etc.
So as you can hopefully understand from this example.. if you view something in a dimension lower than what it really is - like in this example you view a 3d thing (me) in a 2d plane (the piece of paper) - then it looks all weird and seems to make no sense. So if we take this string that is sitting there quietly oscillating in 8 dimensions, and we dumb it down to the 3 dimensions we can see (+time) then we get.. the world we see now. Tits and asses.. all really just a string.
That's it in a nutshell...
Alternate universes is something different.. it's a theory that everything imaginable exists.. something that we can neither prove nor disprove. So according to occam's razor we have to ignore it.. but it's a nice explanation for the reason why the universal constants are exactly the way they are, and allow the formation of matter (and ultimately, life). Basically all the other possibilities exist too, but there is nothing there where they exist (no matter) so there is noone to observe it. But like I said, this is a theory that can neither be proven nor disproven..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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ItDepends
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Straight
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My clone exists
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pantherhound
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Flush
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At some point in space and time, cereal rillas are shaving using razors with inbuilt TVs, whilst 12 foot spiders are sketching Pythagoras backwards on a giant milk bottle and Elvis dances with Genghis Khan on a dancefloor of frozen tomato juice.
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Miffed22001
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so because i dont fly ever (because im scraed) im going to die before everyone?
man that sucks
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
so because i dont fly ever (because im scraed) im going to die before everyone?
man that sucks
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Yeah one can add valuable microseconds to ones life by repeatedly flying around the globe.. but not you! :P
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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pgil
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
I saw a show where they synchronized two atomic clocks, put one on a plane and flew it around the world, then compared them, and the one on the plane was slow.
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Yep.. speed increased, thus time slowed down. |
the thing about atomic clocks is they are reliant on the mass of the nucleus of an atom. now according to einstein, as your speed increases, your mass will also increase. this would affect the oscilations of an atomic clock, and make it appear as though 'time' were variable, without it actually being so. you see, even within the theory there is an alternative explanation for this result.
and to claim that philosophy has no bearing on science, well that is just wrong. you cant have statistical analyses without logical arguments. and where would science be without stats? you cant really do much of anything in any scientific field without philosophy. any "scientist" that laughs at, or scorns philosophy, is not a good scientist, and not a smart individual.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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pgil
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Full House
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and if you are going to apply occams razor (philosophy BTW) to a theory to dismiss it because it cant be proven or disproven, then you must also apply it to string theory.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
the thing about atomic clocks is they are reliant on the mass of the nucleus of an atom. now according to einstein, as your speed increases, your mass will also increase. this would affect the oscilations of an atomic clock, and make it appear as though 'time' were variable, without it actually being so. you see, even within the theory there is an alternative explanation for this result.
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There is also the thing that the speed of light is the same no matter how fast you move when you observe it. There is no relevant mass change here, and changeable time is the only variable.
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and to claim that philosophy has no bearing on science, well that is just wrong. you cant have statistical analyses without logical arguments. and where would science be without stats?
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Didn't know statistics was philosophy.
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you cant really do much of anything in any scientific field without philosophy. any "scientist" that laughs at, or scorns philosophy, is not a good scientist, and not a smart individual.
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I am very much for scientific philosophy. It's however sadly only a smart part of the whole matter. Stuff about a higher being existing or not, what exactly thinking is etc is for me quite unproductive - not in the least because evolutionary biology and game theory etc have better answers.
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and if you are going to apply occams razor (philosophy BTW) to a theory to dismiss it because it cant be proven or disproven, then you must also apply it to string theory.
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If you want you can, I'm not a particular fan of string theory. But you should know there is quite a difference between string theory and multiple universe theory. Occam's razor states that if you cannot discern between two theories or explanations, and one is a lot more complex than the other, then just take the simple one. So: lotsa universes that we will never be able to see.. or just ours. Let's just stick to ours. However, string theory is a shot at a Unifying Theory, it is not a more complex variant of a simpler evenly correct theory. Basically, the calculations stemming from string theory are just too damn complex for it to be fully testable as of now.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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if you didnt know that statistics is based on logic, then please never ever use them (oh, and sue your professors for not teaching stats properly). when you make a statement using statistics in a scientific setting, basically when you design an experiment, you create a logical argument, and then test this using the appropriate statistical device. when people dont understand this, or dont understand what they are doing, this is where things go awry. i am of course speaking not of descriptive statistics, but of the more fun variety.
how is there "no relevant mass change here"???? thats a bold statement. is there a reason that there is no relevant mass change, or is it just cus you said so?
if you had a better background in "stuff about a higher being existing or not", or as it is sometimes called "metaphysics", you might realize that there is a very relevant discussion to be had about what exactly is the nature of time. and that it is only through this type of exploration that you will be able to find the fruits of progress in this discussion.
IF time is a dimension, then how/why is it alterable?? a dimension is not a 'real' thing of course, but is a construct of a system that allows one to plot the exact location of an object in space. using this definition you could make an argument that time is in fact a dimension, but then you would also have to accept that time is therefore not a 'thing in the world' that can be altered.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
if you didnt know that statistics is based on logic, then please never ever use them (oh, and sue your professors for not teaching stats properly). when you make a statement using statistics in a scientific setting, basically when you design an experiment, you create a logical argument, and then test this using the appropriate statistical device. when people dont understand this, or dont understand what they are doing, this is where things go awry. i am of course speaking not of descriptive statistics, but of the more fun variety.
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Logic is also a part of math. And if you're actually trying to argue that statistics is a part of philosophy.. ok, just lol..
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how is there "no relevant mass change here"???? thats a bold statement. is there a reason that there is no relevant mass change, or is it just cus you said so?
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Let's say there are two observers. One is immobile vs our point of reference (earth) and the other one is moving at half the speed of light. Both observe the speed of light as the same. So where is the relevant mass change in this thought experiment?
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if you had a better background in "stuff about a higher being existing or not", or as it is sometimes called "metaphysics", you might realize that there is a very relevant discussion to be had about what exactly is the nature of time. and that it is only through this type of exploration that you will be able to find the fruits of progress in this discussion.
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There is indeed a very good discussion to be had about time, but attacking a graphical visual of einstein's theories because in your mind you can approach it from the other side (or something), doesn't make you seem very credible to me.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
some stuff
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pgil, i'm not going to bother outlining the flaws in your arguments (because other people are doing it well), but I'd just like to point out that it sounds like you either smoke too much pot (equating logic, life, the universe, and everything to philosophy), or don't smoke enough pot (failing to understand what 4+ dimensions of reality means).
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Rockymv
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,177
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Originally Posted by jackvance
I am very much for scientific philosophy. It's however sadly only a smart part of the whole matter. Stuff about a higher being existing or not, what exactly thinking is etc is for me quite unproductive - not in the least because evolutionary biology and game theory etc have better answers.
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lol
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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This thread turned out to be surprisingly good considering how clueless the OP is. Jackvance, your posts in this thread are great. You're obviously a smart guy and I also admire your patience. If someone was repeatedly talking down to me, even though it was extremely obvious that he had no idea what he was talking about, I'd probably tell him to shut up and leave me alone, but you did a good job of patiently explaining a lot of difficult ideas. I for one enjoyed your posts even if the OP didn't.
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