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DoGGz

12-03-2005, 04:26 PM Post subject: Dwarfman, I apologize

#1 (permalink)

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For the public record, I was de-opped, and then again Kick-Banned from the IRC channel by our beloved Dwarfman. I am told changing the topic to the daily happenings is against his policy!

For this Dwarfman, I apologize.

He seemed upset over discussion by some of our other members.

For that Dwarfman, I apologize.

You also have told me that you DO NOT want to hear the truth from us!

Dwarfman - I APOLOGIZE

And, of course, it seems you do not like when I mock you, dear Dwarfman,

and for this, I deeply apologize.

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

12-03-2005, 04:30 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

If you feel that stating that everyone hates me publicly in the topic of the IRC chatroom not a bad thing, you are an idiot.

I give up with IRC, leaving it for good starting now (feel free to set an over/under for my return, I guarantee you that over will win).

vqc

12-03-2005, 04:51 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 5,427

nevermind.

vqc

12-03-2005, 05:03 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 5,427

IRC has become the bane of FTR

12-03-2005, 05:09 PM

#5 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

IRC has become the bane of FTR

Agreed, that's why I'm getting right out. Not only is it annoying being around a few assholes, it's making me an asshole aswell - and naturally I want to stop that.

Xianti

12-03-2005, 05:18 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Is managing the IRC drastically different from running the forums? Why can't you guys (the Ops of IRC) manage the IRC like we run the forums, i.e., keep a friendly, troll-free environment?

Is it much more difficult?

12-03-2005, 05:23 PM

#7 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

People do silly things in IRC a lot more often.

Xianti

12-03-2005, 05:26 PM

#8 (permalink)

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How about setting some policies regarding attitudes and courtesy? And enforcing them by kicking twice, then banning?

a500lbgorilla

12-03-2005, 05:31 PM

#9 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

It doesn't need mods. That's the problem. There should just be one op period.

It's the downswing of FTR but I still have a lot of fun in there.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Xianti

12-03-2005, 05:33 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It doesn't need mods. That's the problem. There should just be one op period.

So you suggest the opposite... no moderating, basically?

12-03-2005, 05:35 PM

#11 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It doesn't need mods. That's the problem. There should just be one op period.

That poses a danger to hackers if no ops are active at any one time.

Either way it's not my problem anymore.

ake

12-03-2005, 05:37 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Compton - L.A

Posts: 138

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It doesn't need mods. That's the problem. There should just be one op period.

It's the downswing of FTR but I still have a lot of fun in there.

-'rilla

Who? There has to be several to make sure atleast one is always active to protect from flooding and bad beats. Having multiple ops shouldn't pose a problem.

Ops fighting eachother is just silly. Hopefully it has been solved now. If doggz and dwarfman fight again both their ops will be gone. Only problem is that it's hard finding people who're active enough to be ops.

And yes, there has to be moderation. Otherwise people will spam and post bad beats which will piss others off and create an even worse atmosphere in there.

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 05:39 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

I am not fighting!!

a500lbgorilla

12-03-2005, 05:40 PM

#14 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It doesn't need mods. That's the problem. There should just be one op period.

So you suggest the opposite... no moderating, basically?

Yup. It'll work perfectly.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

a500lbgorilla

12-03-2005, 05:41 PM

#15 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It doesn't need mods. That's the problem. There should just be one op period.

That poses a danger to hackers if no ops are active at any one time.

Either way it's not my problem anymore.

It's a price we pay. Let'm hack our IRC. We can just make another.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

ake

12-03-2005, 05:42 PM

#16 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Compton - L.A

Posts: 138

Good.

All right then, since dwarfman won't be going there much anymore the problem should be solved.
I also want LeFou to be perm-op in there but I'm not sure how active he is.

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 05:42 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Rilla, the problem isn't with ops, it's with ops that abuse their power. You can't just ban someone because you don't like them.

a500lbgorilla

12-03-2005, 05:43 PM

#18 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ake

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

It doesn't need mods. That's the problem. There should just be one op period.

It's the downswing of FTR but I still have a lot of fun in there.

-'rilla

Who? There has to be several to make sure atleast one is always active to protect from flooding and bad beats. Having multiple ops shouldn't pose a problem.

Anyone. The ops never protected against the flooding bad beats. Besides, anyone who's playing just wants to say something like "Damn, AA<AK" when it happens. If people would just hold it to that instead of 4 lines of all caps, we'd be fine.

Quote:

Ops fighting eachother is just silly. Hopefully it has been solved now. If doggz and dwarfman fight again both their ops will be gone. Only problem is that it's hard finding people who're active enough to be ops.

And yes, there has to be moderation. Otherwise people will spam and post bad beats which will piss others off and create an even worse atmosphere in there.

Nah, you're assuming that everyone in IRC is set in there ways of spamming and bad beats. Just let one person op for a month and the place'll turn around.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

a500lbgorilla

12-03-2005, 05:44 PM

#19 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

Rilla, the problem isn't with ops, it's with ops that abuse their power. You can't just ban someone because you don't like them.

So then the problem IS with ops.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 05:45 PM

#20 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

Rilla, the problem isn't with ops, it's with ops that abuse their power. You can't just ban someone because you don't like them.

So then the problem IS with ops.

-'rilla

I'll beat you one day

ake

12-03-2005, 05:46 PM

#21 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Compton - L.A

Posts: 138

Well rilla, you know that people can't keep it like that.

When someone gets horribly bad beaten the result is always the same, and it's not "Damn, AA<AK"
The resulting spam pisses off everyone else and this is why we need ops. I don't see where you're going with 1 one op only. If the ops are acting like they should and getting along it wouldn't make a difference if we had 1 or 5 ops.

And we've had some serious case of flooders and whiners in there...

a500lbgorilla

12-03-2005, 05:47 PM

#22 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

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Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by ake

And having 30 ops never solved that problem.

We should just make a shit list and figure out punishment.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

ake

12-03-2005, 05:52 PM

#23 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Compton - L.A

Posts: 138

Well anyway, the problem should now be solved. And I made Saxin perm-op to have a european active op since me, dwarfman and estrop aren't that active. I will most likely be active again in a couple of weeks.

Now if this doesn't work out I'll see what has to be done..right now I'm way too hung over to put more into it.

Irisheyes

12-03-2005, 05:53 PM

#24 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

I think what you need is a hierarchy of opps. Someone is always in charge and if a higher opp comes in then the person hands over moderation to the guy who just came in. That way there is always only one active opp, yet always an opp there. Also the hierarcy would need to chosen by vote I think.

I don't know much about IRC though. How does this sound?

Xianti

12-03-2005, 05:53 PM

#25 (permalink)

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I say we start from scratch.

Axe ALL the current Ops. Start a thread here asking for active IRC members that would like to be Ops. Xianti will pick the 10 best candidates (based on my assessment of their character, maturity and responsibility), and then a public poll will be taken to determine the 5 most popular.

And we'll have 5 new Ops.

How does that sound?

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 05:57 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

I'm not sure if we are that far gone that we should start a new channel?

Xianti

12-03-2005, 05:59 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Not a new channel. Just new Ops.

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 06:06 PM

#28 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

Not a new channel. Just new Ops.

Well, I'm really the only current active op. Rilla's always busy now, and dwarfman said he left for good.

edudlive

12-03-2005, 06:45 PM

#29 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: 100NL 6max

Posts: 623

I'd like to be an opp. I'm always in the channel, and at least like to think I'm a well liked member on FTR and the IRC channel

(16:02:25) Fleece: u think ur liked now?
(16:02:31) Fleece: that u got real life friends
(16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends
(16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore

hydroseeds

12-03-2005, 06:53 PM

#30 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 115

I've been in IRC forever and always alert the ops to rule-breakers.

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 07:07 PM

#31 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydroseeds

I've been in IRC forever and always alert the ops to rule-breakers.

You are teh rule breaker

DaNutsInYoEye

12-03-2005, 09:57 PM

#32 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 1,921

Kicking is a joke because people just sign right back on two seconds later.
Just starting banning people.

Telling Bad Beats = Ban
Swearing = Ban
Gay Jokes = Ban
Arguing = Ban

I really don't know how it works, but can you not specify the duration of the ban (5 minutes, a day, etc.)? There is simply too much tolerance for immaturity. At this point I think the most important thing is to have mods that will enforce the rules.

I know it's a chat rooom and anything is open to discussion, but personally I would like to see more poker related discussion/teaching going on. If you could find a couple winning players that would be willing to spend a little time in IRC I think it would be a great benefit. I know many of them left long ago, but perhaps if you approached a few of them with a new plan of where we would like IRC to go and maybe even offered them a mod position you would be able to entice them to come back.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

drdeutsch

12-03-2005, 10:00 PM

#33 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xianti

I'm pretty new here, and even newer to IRC, but I'll chip in my 2 cents. It seems that since I joined the FTR channel, the ops have been battling each other. I can't remember how many times I've seen ops kick and ban other ops, apparently for no reason. Besides that, I've seen people enter only to be kicked and banned 2 seconds later for some absurd reasons "You down pwn" or some other bs. Hell, one time even I got kicked, apparently because I was idling (I was asleep). Anyone who's read the seminal study by Milgram on authority knows how people react when given a little bit of power.

Now, I'm fairly familiar with IRC, but since I'm on 24/7, whether active or idling, I do have the ability to scroll up and see what I missed while I was sleeping. I'm not sure how #FTR is run, but how odd that 1 op may kickban 3 people during the night, then another op comes on, deops Op#1, removes the ban from the 3 people, and then decides to ban two others who aren't even present (Of course, I can't tell who these people are, since I only see the @ip-address)

EDIT: Just as aperfect example, after this whole thing with Dwarfman and Doggz, this morning Ake came in, apparently cleared things op, deopped Dwarfman, did a little bit of other work, etc. Now dwarfman just came back in the room, and L gives him ops, apparently because someone reopped him. This "treading on the toes" of other ops seems to be the norm in the channel and it definitely needs to be done away with. (This is not an attack on dwarfman and whether or not he has ops, but it just makes my point).

That said, I have my own ideas about who, to me, have appeared to be good ops, but I would second X!anti's idea of starting over with 5 new ops, with nominations and final decisions by X!anti and Ake, who, as far as I can tell, are much more "in control" here, both literally and mentally.

Also, perhaps you could nominate an additional 3-5 to have Voice, as sort of "Ops-in-training," who could eventually be given ops. Of course, final decisions on those should be up to X!anti and Ake as well.

drdeutsch

Lucky0309: deutsch ur gross

a500lbgorilla

12-03-2005, 10:00 PM

#34 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

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Ha, ban for gay jokes. Gay jokes are just what kids are telling these days. We've been telling gay jokes for YEARS now, you can't change that. If you want to come to IRC, you're gonna have to deal with a little immaturity. Also, fuck swear-banning. The f-bomb rule didn't work for the WSOP. It wont work for IRC.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

midas06

12-03-2005, 10:30 PM

#35 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: NZ

Posts: 2,196

I wouldn't mind the op...

DaNutsInYoEye

12-03-2005, 10:32 PM

#36 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,921

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Swearing adds nothing to a discussion. It doesn't offend me, but I just don't see the need for it. I am not offended by gay jokes either, but I don't see how continually joking about homosexuality is going to help anyone's poker game. If you want to tell someone they're a little bitch or tell Lee Jones to go fuck himself and call each other fags then fine, but how about you do it over AIM, MSN or Yahoo instead of in IRC where everyone is subjected to it.

You know I like to clown around and bullshit, but if you really want to reform IRC then you need to set some rules. If you start to selectively enforce these rules then eventually things are going to get worse and worse and you'll again be left with what you were originally trying to avoid. Then when you start cracking down on the immaturity people are going to be upset becase you previously made exceptions for the same behavior.

A sentimental "Guys, IRC had become incredibly immature so let's do better in the future, ok? Everyone in? Alright, GO TEAM!!!" attitude just isn't going to get it done. If you really want to reform IRC then make some actual efforts to do so. Set some standards of what will and will not be tolerated then make sure they are enforced.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 10:41 PM

#37 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

If you could find a couple winning players that would be willing to spend a little time in IRC I think it would be a great benefit. I know many of them left long ago, but perhaps if you approached a few of them with a new plan of where we would like IRC to go and maybe even offered them a mod position you would be able to entice them to come back.

Sigh, they left because people don't listen. We preach and all we hear is bitching and bad beats. We can't turn loosing players into winners if they don't care/ don't listen.

... and I think some of them left because off all the complaining.

midas06

12-03-2005, 10:44 PM

#38 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 2,196

I think that the #flopturnriver channel should be used as a 'community' channel, while lambchop's new channel #ftr-pokeronly could be used for more serious poker discussion.

Discuss.

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 10:47 PM

#39 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

The problem with a consistant poker only chatroom is there just isn't enough topics to keep a consistant 24 hour chat going

drdeutsch

12-03-2005, 10:48 PM

#40 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 60

Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

I think that the #flopturnriver channel should be used as a 'community' channel, while lambchop's new channel #ftr-pokeronly could be used for more serious poker discussion.

Discuss.

Great idea in theory, midas, but (1) it doesn't solve the problems in the #flopturnriver, i.e. the ops kickbanning each other, debanning and reopping other people, etc. and (2) I'm afraid that eventually the #ftr-pokeronly channel, without similar standards, will degrade into what #flopturnriver is now.

drdeutsch

Lucky0309: deutsch ur gross

12-03-2005, 10:48 PM

#41 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

This is exactly the thing that needs sorting out:

[23:44] <DoGGz_sleep> r you here?
[23:45] <dwarfman> yes hi
[23:45] <DoGGz> You are the weekest link
[23:45] <DoGGz> goodbye
[23:45] * You were kicked from #ftr-pokeronly by DoGGz (BYE)
[23:45] #ftr-pokeronly unable to join channel (address is banned)
[23:45] <DoGGz> timeout!
[23:46] <dwarfman> nice of you to show your immaturity

And no, I didn't say ANYTHING offensive, in fact I was discussing ROI in a Stars normal SnG vs a Stars turbo SnG at the time.

I am befuddled as to why I am banned from the serious poker talk channel.

DaNutsInYoEye

12-03-2005, 10:55 PM

#42 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 1,921

Dwarf, it's not just about you. There are innumerable situations similar to it. Many people are tired of it and there is a general concensus for reform. The question is, how do we go about doing it?

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 10:55 PM

#43 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

This has nothing to do with this thread. Take this else where.

On top of that, why are you posting PRIVATE messages into this forum? If I were to post all the messages you sent me Xianti would have already banned you from the forums.

midas06

12-03-2005, 10:56 PM

#44 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 2,196

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

The problem with a consistant poker only chatroom is there just isn't enough topics to keep a consistant 24 hour chat going

Isn't this what Vent is? I don't hear any complaints about that...

Miffed22001

12-03-2005, 10:57 PM

#45 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

I think we have blown this quite out of proportion.
Yes ill take my slating for having a funny or for being booted for bantering on about bad beatz. But i think this is way over the top. Yes on occasion irc has got a touch out of control, i dont like to point out dman because he DOES (period) do an exellent job as an op as do the others. I think though that banning people for example 2 hrs or something similar for either arguing, bad beating or other stuff SHOULD BE AN OPTION Therefore hopefully the guilty party calms down and secondly no hard feelings will exist. I suggest that this rule to ban someone for a few hrs needs to be confirmed by two people, at least one an op.
I just think a whole new set of ops or changing the channel is a mistake. It is only the exceptions that ruin it fromn time to time which we ARE ALL guilty of from time to time myself included

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 10:58 PM

#46 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

The problem with a consistant poker only chatroom is there just isn't enough topics to keep a consistant 24 hour chat going

Isn't this what Vent is? I don't hear any complaints about that...

Well, vent mostly is people just chit-chatting or giving play by play in tournies.

DoGGz

12-03-2005, 11:08 PM

#47 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Just so everyone knows how this started... I feel somehow this is making me look like the badguy.

<DoGGz> You were upset because demi was saying you were dumb
<dwarfman> ok it could have been worded better DoGGz.. pretty much what Miffosaurous just said
<DoGGz> and that is how this whole shit started
<dwarfman> demi wha?
<DoGGz> You were playing 600nl on your roll is what someone told us last night
<dwarfman> i was
<Miffosaurous> dman u made profit at poker thats a start now u have to mentally deal with it
<DoGGz> so OF COURSE they were flaming you

<Miffosaurous> thats means good discipline#
<dwarfman> that's my *little* lack of discipline
<DoGGz> And you got extremely upset over that
<Miffosaurous> quit that and youll be fine
<dwarfman> of course i got upset, i was tilted and emotional
<DoGGz> which ended up in YOU banning me, and forcing ME to appologize to get back into the channel
<dwarfman> i now understand that they were damn right the shout their ass off at me

<dwarfman> basically you quoted me in the topic saying that everyone on FTR hated me
<dwarfman> which i felt was a little rude
<DoGGz> that was it
<DoGGz> right?
<DoGGz> That is EXACTLY what you posted
<dwarfman> so i deopped you and asked for an apology to get your ops back
<DoGGz> and you banned me

This is how we got to this post.

12-03-2005, 11:08 PM

#48 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

{This post has been removed}

strangebird

12-03-2005, 11:13 PM

#49 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: Sizzler

Posts: 553

Op shmop.. thats what I say

Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants won't help.
-- Calvin and Hobbes

12-03-2005, 11:13 PM

#50 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

You conveniently missed off the rest of the PM conversation, Mr Biased!

I've added it on for you.

[23:44] <DoGGz_sleep> r you here?
[23:45] <dwarfman> yes hi
[23:45] <DoGGz> You are the weekest link
[23:45] <DoGGz> goodbye
[23:45] <DoGGz> timeout!
[23:46] <dwarfman> nice of you to show your immaturity

[00:04] <dwarfman> basically you quoted me in the topic saying that everyone on FTR hated me
[00:04] <dwarfman> which i felt was a little rude
[00:04] <DoGGz> that was it
[00:04] <DoGGz> right?
[00:04] <DoGGz> That is EXACTLY what you posted
[00:04] <dwarfman> so i deopped you and asked for an apology to get your ops back
[00:04] <DoGGz> and you banned me
[00:04] <dwarfman> you refused and threw a few insults my way
[00:04] <dwarfman> so i kickbanned you
[00:04] <dwarfman> and asked you to apologise again
[00:04] <dwarfman> you refused again
[00:04] <dwarfman> and that was that

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Dwarfman, I apologize

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