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dalecooper
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11-03-2008, 05:32 PM
Post subject: Does stuff keep killing your poker development?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I may be coming to the realization that although I have studied the crap out of poker and am a pretty solid player with a good grasp of many concepts both intermediate and advanced, I'm going to be a low stakes lifer. A hobbyist at best.
I want to do more but I lack the initiative. And when I get the initiative for a while, something always happens that kills it. Right now I don't have that much time to play, my home game has withered away, etc. ...but the main problem is that between the economy and more personal financial woes, I took a look at my bankroll and said "Well I can keep playing with all this money and trying to move up stakes - or I can take half of this out right now and pay off these two bills that are looming over me." And I've done this repeatedly. When I bought a house I drained my bankroll to pay closing costs. When my girlfriend quit her job to go back to school, I drained my 'roll again so I could pick up a majority share of the mortgage and utilities, and take some pressure off of her. And this is exacerbated any time I happen to have a downswing that coincides with even slight financial problems. If I have a -4 buyin swong, the prospect of "letting it ride" on more poker sessions looks really unappealing next to "withdraw it now and pay off your credit card, jackass."
This is a cycle for me - I can't make myself believe that the money is off limits. When it comes down to it, the biggest discipline problem I have is leaving that couple thousand dollars alone to blossom into something else. But it makes me feel like I'm failing in some way that I'm still playing 50 and 100 NL, when I should have moved on to bigger and better...
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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i agree 100% with OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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get a job. quit being a tool.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Be glad that you have that poker money to pay off those bills. Poker as a small money making hobby is nothing to be ashamed of.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reDZill4
get a job. quit being a tool.
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I have a job. I also have a credit card, a mortgage, vet bills, and a girlfriend trying to get her doctorate degree (meaning she's spending more than she's making right now, and it's not close). I also have non-constructive criticism from some douchebag. 
The stoooopid thing though is that I'm not broke or seriously in debt. I have a respectable income, a reasonable amount in my bank account, and a 401k. I'm doing pretty well. But when I start backsliding anywhere close to "living check to check" status, I eyeball my poker 'roll and think: hmmm... that would beef my bank account back up, and pay my credit card back down to zero again. And it always overwhelms any desire to try to take a shot at that next level of poker.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Well said.
I had this same realization a few months ago and decided to stay at my current level until I pay off my student loans, which will be in about 6 months. After that, the pressure to spend my bankroll will not be as great, and I can try to move up. The few times I get the chance to play without distractions (wife, baby, job) it is comforting sometimes to flip into auto mode and play ABC poker, knowing you are going to win unless you get hit with huge -EV.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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if you're regularly running up CC debt you need to redefine 'reasonable' amount of money in the bank and accept that you are living check to check. Which is not bad with a 401k on the side. It sounds like using the poker money to pay off your CC debt is the correct choice and moving up levels when you rely on this money to stay out of debt is not a good decision. You a) need the money and b) probably won't play as well.
Problem is not "Poker roll should be off limits" it's "You overspend a bit because you know your roll is there". You don't need to change anything except your perspective. Obv if you want to move up levels you need to stop spending as much but leaving the roll intact while paying interest on credit card debt would be the stooooopid thing.
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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i think its stupid to do this. the longer you let your money sit, the larger your roll gets and then withdrawing 400$ becomes a smaller and smaller % of your roll. then it becomes much less damaging to your roll to pull out 400$ a month for hookers and blow.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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Red has a good point although you could also give up giving yourself a hard time until she has the doctorate and your life immediatly becomes simpler and more comfortable (cross fingers).
Its not as simple as is your poker being more important than her doctorate but thinking there is some truth to that may help. bleugh I mean the other way round and to tired to retype it.
You seem to suggest that when you play more carefree you also play better, why make it harder on yourself.
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MuddyWicket
Red has a good point although you could also give up giving yourself a hard time until she has the doctorate and your life immediatly becomes simpler and more comfortable (cross fingers).
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i don't understand why you cannot dedicate your roll to poker only for like 2 months to move up to a level and start withdrawing. he said hes not living paycheck to paycheck so why not give your roll the chance to blossom? he said he doesn't need the money only that he likes the cushion.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
The stoooopid thing though is that I'm not broke or seriously in debt. I have a respectable income, a reasonable amount in my bank account, and a 401k. I'm doing pretty well. But when I start backsliding anywhere close to "living check to check" status, I eyeball my poker 'roll and think: hmmm... that would beef my bank account back up, and pay my credit card back down to zero again. And it always overwhelms any desire to try to take a shot at that next level of poker.
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quit being a life nit and let it ride. you can always withdraw whenever you actually need money.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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if your planning to pay off a credit card u shud then cut it up. if balance is zero u will just spend on it again but since u actually have a balance outstanding is the reaosn your not spending.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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I would disagree that his spending habits are the true problem. Many peeps on FTR have CC debt and play much higher limits than Dale. His desire to play during downswongs and higher limits are spurring his actions to pay off the CCs. He is not doing it when running well and moving up thru the micros.
I would say you need to make the decision and maintain the discipline to keep your poker roll "untouchable". Kinda like never playing KJo UTG in FR. The more you get outside the boundaries that you have set up the easier it is to do again. Your discipline fades. You have allowed yourself to rape your roll enough times that you need to rebuild your discipline to separate that money. That starts by making a decision as to how you want to treat your bankroll and sticking to it.(neither decision is wrong as long as you are OK with it)
As for keeping the roll intact: If you get bored, quit for a while, but don't touch that roll. Then when you come back you are that much further ahead. If you lack motivation find ways to overcome that, challenging yourself to play higher, play different games, try SnG's. . . but that is another thread.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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anything that spurs you to pay off CCs is a good thing. Having a credit card you don't pay off every month is a bad thing and your 'peeps' are making a mistake that as poker players they should pretty clearly understand. None of that has anything to do with poker.
If he was using the roll to buy new electronic equipment your post would make sense but if you read OP being bored is only a small part of the issue, being broke is the bigger part.
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wesrman
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reDZill4
i think its stupid to do this. the longer you let your money sit, the larger your roll gets and then withdrawing 400$ becomes a smaller and smaller % of your roll. then it becomes much less damaging to your roll to pull out 400$ a month for hookers and blow.
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This made me LOL pretty hard and its true. 
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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answer to OP's question, NO. I withdraw what doesn't affect my roll. like my RB or Rake Race money. Since going back to work My BR is off limits unless it's a luxury item, because we don't ever live beyond our means.
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Silly String
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11-05-2008, 07:05 PM
Post subject: Re: Does stuff keep killing your poker development?
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#16 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
...but the main problem is that between the economy and more personal financial woes, I took a look at my bankroll and said "Well I can keep playing with all this money and trying to move up stakes - or I can take half of this out right now and pay off these two bills that are looming over me." And I've done this repeatedly.
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I reread OP & I guess you are right, drmcboy.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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drmc pwned this thread imo
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
answer to OP's question, NO. I withdraw what doesn't affect my roll. like my RB or Rake Race money. Since going back to work My BR is off limits unless it's a luxury item, because we don't ever live beyond our means.
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TEACH ME HOW TO NOT LIVE BEYOND MY MEANS!!!
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
drmc pwned this thread imo
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Yep.
On a related note, this thread proves that you shouldn't try to build a roll unless you already have a few months' living expenses saved up already. If you're living paycheck-to-paycheck, like dale apparently is, then you'll always be tempted to decimate your bankroll to pay the bills, and you'll never get anywhere.
If you save money when you're young it's amazing how good of a head start you can get off to.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Didnt read all of that, but heres my thoughts.
I use a savings trick with my home loan that a friend gave me, and once I get to that point intend to do the same thing with my BR. Simply, save (or in this case win) twice what you want to withdraw. So if you want to withdraw $1k, then increase your BR by $2k and withdraw half of it. That leaves you with a bigger BR than you started with still. Want to withdraw $5k for debts? Then win $10k and withdraw half. Slightly different in your case since you're not planning, but the concept can still apply. Just takes some discipline. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and want some extra from poker, then rather than withdraw all your winnings at the end of each month, withdraw half of them.
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Just playing to improve.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Reading between the lines, it sounds like saving is your issue. Seems you have a decent income and the ability to live within your means, but you choose (conciously or not) not to, and run up debt. If thats due to legitimate living expenses then fine, but if its on luxury items you're doing something wrong. Thats where some kind of plan like mine above would help. Rather than buy them, THEN worry about how to pay them off, how about saving (or winning) the money and then buying them?
If you get by needing to withdraw from your poker account to pay debt, then a few months of frugality should enable you to turn that around and get ahead so that your withdraw money to buy things, rather than to pay debt for things you already bought.
[edit]reread OP, sounds like maybe you WERE able to live comfortably, but maybe after your girlfriend went back to school this changed and you havnt coped well with adjusting your spending to cater for that. Understandable, its HARD going down in income. Things we didnt think were luxuries suddenly are. I dont want to derail, but really think about what you're spending money on, and whether you need to. I know one day I worked out I was spending about $3k per year on morning coffee and occasional breakfast on the way to work. Something as simple as cutting that out makes a big difference when you're close to the line.
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Just playing to improve.
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