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Xianti
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12-01-2005, 12:12 AM
Post subject: Discussion: ttanaka's Casino Bonuses Journal
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#1 (permalink)
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Comments on http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=24230
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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Rabid Dog
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ttanaka,
Great explanation. I have been thinking about doing this but was confused about the wr. To me they seemed high and I thought they would be hard to reach. Your explanation is really clear. I was always afraid to play blackjack for some reason, even though I know how to play it, I wasnt sure how the casino's did it. Plus I have never used charts before so figured that would be intimidating. How do you know how many decks they deal with? I know theres different charts for however many decks they use.
I will be following this thread and wish you lots of luck with your venture.
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ttanaka
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I'm glad that helped, yeah I was kinda confused going in too, so I asked customer service a lot of questions and took my time. StarLuck uses 8 decks and they re-shuffle after only 20%, so there aren't any card counting angles or anything. I use the FTR chart which is based on Vegas rules 6-deck shoe. Actually, I don't even use a chart since I've known basic strategy for over a decade, but that chart is how I play.
Take a $100 out of your poker bankroll and follow me, it should be fun and I'll bet we end up with more money at the end!
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Rabid Dog
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Its sure worth a try. Right now Im waiting on a cashout from Fortune poker and my Bet365 bonus to show up. Speaking of Bet365, they only offer one free withdrawal a month, should I take the $100 I will have in the poker room there and play it in the casino before I pull it out and go somewhere else with it? edit: Forget I asked this. I looked and their casino requires a $200 initial deposit. I would have to wait for my Fortune cashout to complete before I have that.
Also as far as charts go. What about using the wizard of odds charts, there's been alot of good referal to them.
Also if Starlucks uses an 8 deck set how did you come up with using a 6 deck chart? Did the 20% shuffle have anything to do with it and is it that important to factor in (the % shuffle)?
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Rabid Dog
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I will say this, if I can clear a $100 bonus in a couple hours playing blackjack, that beats the crap out of the 4 days I spent clearing the Bet365 bonus because my bankroll wasnt big enough for 100nl.
Is there a bankroll requirment for casino whoring? Or is $100 a good starting point.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Betting small doing these bonuses does not earn you any EV, its just a waste of time.
I like to bet $10 per hand on withdrawable bonuses. Sticky bonuses are a bit different though.
I did a 300% to $300 sticky bonus yesterday, I started off betting $100 per hand and was one hand away from busting before getting up to $600, I then made a $300 bet and won leaving me with $600 of withdrawable balance. This took about 10 mins to play.
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ttanaka
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Can you explain the strategy behind the sticky bonuses? The sticky bonuses are where you can wager it but never withdraw it, correct?
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Rabid Dog
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Im pretty sure a sticky bonus is one you cant withdraw ever. But you can withdraw whatever winnings you make off the sticky bonus after the WR have been met. I think you can keep going back and playing off that sticky bonus until you loose it also.
At least thats how I interpreted it when I read about them.
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Rabid Dog
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ttanaka
Take a $100 out of your poker bankroll and follow me, it should be fun and I'll bet we end up with more money at the end!
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As soon as my cashout from Fortune shows up in my neteller account, Im going to follow you around. As long as it doesnt bother you that Im shadowing your whores. Maybe we can both turn our initial $100 into some good money by the end. Might be up to 2 more days before it shows up though.
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ttanaka
Can you explain the strategy behind the sticky bonuses? The sticky bonuses are where you can wager it but never withdraw it, correct?
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Here's the strategy regarding sticky bonuses:
Let's take Golden Palace's offer, for instance. 300%, sticky.
So you put in $100, get $300 as a sticky bonus, with 4x wagering requirements for the bonus + deposit. That means you'll need to wager $1600.
The very first hand, put your entire balance on the line ($400). If you win, great! Now you have $800, but remember that $300 of that is sticky, so you really only have $500. You now essentially have $400 in bonus ($500-$100 initial deposit) that you need to wager $1200 (3x depost + bonus) for. Just wager normally from here on out.
The catch is that if you lose your first hand, you're done: on to the next bonus. Sticky bonuses are inherently risky, but are +EV.
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
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Did that make sense ttanaka?
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ttanaka
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Interesting...but do you have to bet the entire amount on one hand? Could you bet $25 or $50 or even $100 a hand?
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ttanaka
Interesting...but do you have to bet the entire amount on one hand? Could you bet $25 or $50 or even $100 a hand?
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Yes you can, ensign Lee just described one way of doing it. You should make big bets so that you will either reach your goal or bust out fast. One drawback with betting your whole balance on the first hand is that the house edge is bigger because you won't be able to double or split your hand.
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Rabid Dog
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What would be wrong with just betting the same way as you do a non sticky? Guess Im alittle confused on this.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ttanaka
Interesting...but do you have to bet the entire amount on one hand? Could you bet $25 or $50 or even $100 a hand?
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Your greatest EV (or rather least negative) comes from betting the most you can at once.
You aren't trying to lose the least like you are with the other bonuses. You need to take advantage of the WHOLE sticky bonus to try to make the most.
Think of a roulette game... What is the best way to ensure a profit for the night?
By only making one bet, since the house edge has more time to affect you the more trials it gets.
Now with the sticky bonuses, losses come from your "real money" first, since you can never withdraw the bonus.
So if you bet $100 and lose, you just lost $100.
If you bet $400 and lose, you just lost $100.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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Cocco_Bill
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
So if you bet $100 and lose, you just lost $100.
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Umm no..
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Rabid Dog
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So basically stay away from sticky's till you have more of a bankroll built incase you loose that first hand big bet.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
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You lose your $100 when you bust period.
I lost my fiirst two $100 bets yesterday and ended up with $900 ($600 withdrawable).
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ttanaka
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So, let's say I have $400 total, $100 deposited and $300 sticky bonus. Maybe my approach should be to bet $200/hand. That way, I can double if need be on that first hand.
If I win, I'll have $600, $300 of which is withdrawable (once I reach the wagering requirement) - so if I win, then maybe I play low stakes until I reach the wagering requirement and then run.
If I lose, I'll have $200. Then, I guess I could make $100 bets, until I reach $400 again or go broke. Once I reach $400, then goto line 10.
How does that sound for a gameplan?
Or, bet it all once, and if I win, then just try to satisfy the wagering requirement and run?
Or, bet $100 bets and quit once I reach the wagering requirement and hope I'm up more than the bonus so I can withdraw something?
Which gameplan do you guys think I should try?
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ttanaka
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Or, bet $100 bets and quit once I reach the wagering requirement and hope I'm up more than the bonus so I can withdraw something?
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You should never quit before you reach your goal! Do you want to profit $200, $400 or more? Whatever you decide to set as a goal you will have to play until you reach it or bust. The small wagering requirement is not the problem here, it can be completed with small bets once you reach that goal.
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Rabid Dog
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ttanaka,
I'm sure you have seen Salsa's blog on casino whoring. It looks pretty good and explains sticky's some. He has them listed as the last casino's to whore. I dont know if this is by preference or just where they fell when he was listing them. I have the site bookmarked for when I was wanting to give casino's a try. Of course the blog was done in August, so I dont know if its still considered up to date.
http://salsa4ever.blogspot.com/
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ttanaka
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Yeah, I've checked it out, I plan on completing StarLuck and PlanetLuck first. These stickies will be coming up soon though, so I thought I'd prepare myself.
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eeeee
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Comment on wager tracking at Starluck / Planetluck --
Open the Window's Calculator to count, or use the Player's Club points (.1 pt per $1 wagered). The Luck's point counters lag by a day, so they are not super useful. The point lag also prevents one from withdrawing the same day wagering is completed.
Other methods to count wagers -- hand counter, deck of cards, pencil and paper, paper clips -- well you get it.
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I'm a know-it-all.
No, really.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ttanaka
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Or, bet $100 bets and quit once I reach the wagering requirement and hope I'm up more than the bonus so I can withdraw something?
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You should never quit before you reach your goal! Do you want to profit $200, $400 or more? Whatever you decide to set as a goal you will have to play until you reach it or bust. The small wagering requirement is not the problem here, it can be completed with small bets once you reach that goal. |
Can you give a single mathematical reason why there would be higher expected value from continuing to play a negative expected value game once your wagering requirement is met, just to reach some arbitrary "goal"?
I don't actually play blackjack online, so I admit I am not 100% versed in the effects of a sticky bonus.
Second, doubling down NEVER increases your chances of winning. It in fact ALWAYS decreases your chance of winning. However, the expected value that you gain by doubling your bet is greater than what you gain in winrate by simply hitting. This is why many casinos will usually let you "double for less" but will not let you split for less.
Splitting is slightly different in that it allows you to win more or lose less. Using the example of AA and 88. 2 aces is obviously better than a 12, with 88, you will still often lose with 2 8s, but less often than when you have 16.
Third (to answer a different question) it doesn't much matter what chart you use to play blackjack. Charts are mathematically proven, and with the exception of some kind of typo, they will be the same for games with the same rules. Also the difference between 6 and 8 decks is barely enough to raise the house odds, but not enough to make any changes to basic strategy.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
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Alright, lets say you are done with your wagering requirement and end up with $400 which is the same as you started off with. Now you have the choice to cash out $100 or wager it all on one bet to hit $800 and then have $500 withdrawable balance. Clearly +EV regardless of if you are done with the wagering requirement. Likewise if you get to say $600 you can either withdraw $300 or bet it all for a $600 gain(almost 2-1 odds) again clearly +EV regardless of wagering requirements. BOTTOM LINE IS THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE TO WAGER THE CASINOS MONEY AFTER WAGERING REQUIREMENTS ARE MET WHICH MAKES IT +EV
Generally a high goal will increase the EV of the bonus, but it will also naturally increase the risk of busting.
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eeeee
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Alright, lets say you are done with your wagering requirement and end up with $400 which is the same as you started off with. Now you have the choice to cash out $100 or wager it all on one bet to hit $800 and then have $500 withdrawable balance. Clearly +EV regardless of if you are done with the wagering requirement. Likewise if you get to say $600 you can either withdraw $300 or bet it all for a $600 gain(almost 2-1 odds) again clearly +EV regardless of wagering requirements. BOTTOM LINE IS THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE TO WAGER THE CASINOS MONEY AFTER WAGERING REQUIREMENTS ARE MET WHICH MAKES IT +EV
Generally a high goal will increase the EV of the bonus, but it will also naturally increase the risk of busting.
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Let me phrase this a different way..... since you are playing a sticky, and can't get the bonus out [that's what we're talking about here, right?] you plan to wager $100-valued hand to either get 1) nothing or 2) $500-valued w/d. That's a good deal.
BUT the generally acccepted practice is to double up first, then work the WR, but I guess your one bet decision is still good if your WR brings you back down to your starting cash. The up-up side is that since you've completed the WR, you can move to a more 50/50-event game for your last big-bet, like craps or Euro Roulette.
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I'm a know-it-all.
No, really.
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Rabid Dog
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Thanks ttanaka, here is how I did.
I finished the Starluck bonus today. Took about 2 hours playing the multi-player table at $2 a bet. Highest I got while playing was just over $250, the lowest was around $76 and this was in the second hour, so I was sweating it. Played strickly by the wizard of odds chart 100%. The server stalled on me 3 times right after I made my opening bets due to congestion traffic on the server. So thats $18 of bets I didnt get to make choices on. I contacted CS about the problem and although they were very nice they wouldnt add it back into my account. They said the server showed the games as completed. So outside of the software problem it was a good experience. I did question some of the double downs the chart said to play but I played them anyhow. If I had to guess on my session the double downs were -EV. Thats not to say they wouldnt have been +EV another time though.
Anyhow here's how I did. Cleared the bonus with my $100 investment still intact. Add to that $42.50 in bonus cleared for a total of $142.50 overall. I decided to go and play some extra so it wouldnt look like I was just there whoring. This time I only played $1 bets still on the multi-table. I told myself if I got down to $130 I would stop. Finished at $150 and decided not to push my luck. Next up Planetluck, but I have to wait the 24 hours for the bonus to officially clear to cash out.
Invested $100. Finished with $150 for a total profit of $50.
Starlucks $50
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
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Good luck at Planetluck. I hope you have good success there.
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ttanaka
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Rabid,
Congrats on the $50. Good luck over at PlanetLuck, I'll update my post as soon as I'm done over there.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
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I just did the sticky bonuses at Golden Palace and Grand Online.
Golden Palace: -$100
Grand Online: +$763.50
Total: +$663.50 in 20 minutes.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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ttanaka
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Wow, sweet. As soon as I'm done with these gimmies, I'll try a sticky one. I thought about it and believe betting it all on the first best is the best utilization of that sticky bonus. I think that's the strategy I'll use.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
I just did the sticky bonuses at Golden Palace and Grand Online.
Golden Palace: -$100
Grand Online: +$763.50
Total: +$663.50 in 20 minutes.
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Thats awsome. Hopefully one day I can report something of this magnitude. Congratulations.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Sorry you didnt do as good at planetluck. Congratulations on comming out ahead though. It looks like we flip flopped on how we did at both casino's. I just finished over there and man is blackjack an emotional rollercoaster. I played the mult player at $2 a bet, 3 hands at a time, just like I did at Starluck. My experience was alittle better at Planetluck than it was at Starluck. I deposited $100 and got the $100 bonus. I started out winning, then loosing down to around $108 and then built it back up to $212. I never waivered from the $2 bets. It took me about 2 hours, I kept count using tick marks on a piece of paper. 10 rows of 80. I did have the same problems with the software that I had at Starluck, just not as many times. I have to wait the 24 hours before I can cash out I guess, and then it should show up within a day, just like Starluck did.
I started with a bankroll of $100 for this. After Starluck bonus ($50 cleared) and Planetluck bonus ($120.11 cleared) my casino bankroll is $270.11 including my original $100 investment.
ttanaka, any idea where to going next, that would be similar to the two we've already done?
edit: Was bored and got greedy so went back and played multi table $1 bets 3 handed. For some reason when I signed back in I had $213.11 instead of the $212 I though I had. Anyhow, played a few hands and when I hit $220.11 I cashed out. I have no idea where that extra $1.11 came from.
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ttanaka
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Ok, I'm going to Grand Online Casino, they have a 200% initial deposit bonus, so I'm taking $100, and will have $300 to wager. And then, I think I'm going to bet it all on one hand of blackjack...
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
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So this is a sticky bonus then right? I dont think Im quite ready for that yet. Good luck, hope you hit big. I'm working on the Bet365 December poker bonus right now. Didnt start off to good, lost 20 while three tabling. Dont think Im ready for 3 tabling full ring poker yet either. Might just stick to 2 tabling for the bonus.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
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ttanaka, make sure to check if they still give the Neteller $75 bonus like its listed in Salsa's blog.
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ttanaka
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Rabid, they did give me a $75 Neteller bonus. I've updated my thread.
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Rabid Dog
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Thats great ttanaka. Sounds like that will definetly be the first sticky I try. I should have the Bet365 December poker bonus finished up sometime tonight or tomorrrow. I'm thinking about moving my money over to their casino then and giving the casino bonus a shot before I try another casino. Just makes since for me to try to grab 2 bonuses at the same time Im there, since they only allow one free cashout a month.
Congrats on the sticky bonus, and that extra free $75 for using Neteller looks like a sweet deal.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
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I got a free $5 from Starluck today. WR was I had to wager at least what the credit was one time through. Turned the $5 into $35 when I decided to stop and withdraw. Just waiting on the 24 hour peroid to clear now.
I also cleared the Bet365 December poker bonus of $100 plus made an extra $40 on top of that. Just waiting for the bonus to be added to my account now so I can move over and do the casino bonus. Its getting close to 2 days since I have cleared this.
edit: Bet365 wouldnt count my 522 raked hands because I played them at the .25/.50 nl tables. So I need to strike the December bonus for now. I think Im just going to head over and do the casino here first and then decide if I want to play at the .50/1 nl tables to clear the December bonus. I've never played at that level before.
So that gives me now:
Start of $100
Starlucks $50+$35=$85
Planetluck $120
Total $305 (includes initial starting investment)
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Eric
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I decided to give this a try. Last night I signed up at Starluck and today I finished clearing the bonus. I even made an additional profit on top of the bonus so it was a lot of fun.
The chat operator said now that I cleared the bonus I'll be able to cashout within 24 hours.
Clearing the bonus was really easy. Like Tyson said, it only took about 90 minutes of playing time(playing 3 hands at once and betting $2 per hand).
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
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Congratulations Eric
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Eric
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Thanks Rabid Dog.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog
Played strickly by the wizard of odds chart 100%. The server stalled on me 3 times right after I made my opening bets due to congestion traffic on the server. So thats $18 of bets I didnt get to make choices on.
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I know what you mean about the disconnects. It happened to me 3 times also but it didn't factor into my profit in the big picture. In fact one of the times I'm pretty sure the dealer busted because I checked the cashier afterwards and I was actually up $6 (3 $2 bets). The disconnects should not stop folks from playing for this great bonus opportunity. I'm really glad that I did this, it was a lot of fun to get the blackjack part of my brain working again. Once I got warmed up I had the basic strategy chart memorized again 100%.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Eric, you should go hit Planetluck now. Its a great bonus just like Starlucks.
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satan1974
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Golden Palace: -$100
Grand Online: +$763.50
Total: +$663.50 in 20 minutes.
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Just before everybody rushes out and thinks this is a dead cert/easy money. I put $100 on both. I did a full amount bet on both sites on the first hand. Dealer got blackjack on both, and I lost $200 in 3 minutes.
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Eric
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog
Eric, you should go hit Planetluck now. Its a great bonus just like Starlucks. |
Maybe I'll check them out next. My Neteller cashout went through with Starluck so here is where I'm at now:
Starluck Completed (+$181).
Starting Bankroll: $100
Current Bankroll: $281
I would have been happy just taking the $100 but in wagering $1600 to clear it I got some good hands that made me an extra $81.
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EasyT
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog
I just finished over there and man is blackjack an emotional rollercoaster.
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Rabid Dog -
You can't let it be an emotional rollercoaster. Put a piece of tape over your screen where your balance is. Or better yet, play poker in another window at the same time. Make your play based on the WoOdds chart, and go back to poker...don't even look at the results. If you get mad/happy/mad/happy at blackjack, you will eventually suffer a "Casino Tilt" where you get pissed off and wager your whole deposit on a non-sticky bonus (like I did...I'm a jackass).
BJ is not a skill-game. You make the best available decisions, and then the cards fall. Try to stay emotionally un-invested.
EasyT.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
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LOL EasyT, I didnt really mean that in a bad way. Im a real even keel kinda guy, its really really hard to get me rattled, especially emotionally rattled. I've been married 25 years and if she cant do it, blackjack surely wont 
Maybe I shouldnt have used the word emotional. Maybe I should have just said playing blackjack for 2 hours reminded me of riding a rollercoaster. You go up, you go down, and if your lucky enough you get out of your car at the top of the ride.
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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I can't emphasize enough how important it is to follow the basic strategy chart on every hand. I've seen friends of mind double down with a hard 8 against a 6 or double down with a hard 10 against a 10. These mistakes add up in the long run. Unless you're counting cards and you know the deck isn't balanced then you only double a hard 10 against 9 or less and you never double a hard 8.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by satan1974
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Golden Palace: -$100
Grand Online: +$763.50
Total: +$663.50 in 20 minutes.
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Just before everybody rushes out and thinks this is a dead cert/easy money. I put $100 on both. I did a full amount bet on both sites on the first hand. Dealer got blackjack on both, and I lost $200 in 3 minutes. |
It's definatley not certain money. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone as the first site they whore. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that is bothered by possibly losing $200 either. Regardless, these bonuses are +EV. You just have to be aware that due to the nature of sticky bonuses, the results are going to be much more volatile.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Ok, I just finished with the Bet365 casino bonus. Its a good bonus to chase, I wouldnt recomend playing this site for blackjack for fun though. Dealer gets an unbelievable amount of blackjacks and back to back blackjacks. And a totally unreal amount of multi card (4-5) 21's.
Anyhow here's how I did. It took me about 4 1/2 hours. I played strictly by the chart and played regular blackjack at the multihand table with $2 bets and nothing more, unless I doubled up that is. After 1/4 of the way through I was down close to $100 of the $400 I started with (my 200 and the bonus 200). Half way through I was down to $218 remaining. Then I started building back up. Got it back to $300 and hovered there for awhile. Reached $350 with around 30 minutes of play left and finished at $374. For a total bonus cleared of $174.00. Not bad at all, but I was getting worried after about 2 hours. Actually I finished with $170 but had $4 in comp.
Key is not to try and make it all back in a few big hands, I just kept grinding it out with nothing but $2 bets.
Now I have to decide if I want to go try the December bonus at the .50/1 nl tables.
Start of $100
Starlucks $50+$35=$85
PlanetLuck $120
Bet365 casino $174
Total $479 (includes initial starting investment)
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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