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Demiparadigm had it right.

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thirteen

11-16-2005, 09:07 PM Post subject: Demiparadigm had it right.

#1 (permalink)

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I think Demiparadigm was right. I'm referring to his Open letter to FTR found here:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=21793

And the reason I bring this up is because of this post:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=23054

I just noticed 5 minutes ago that it was locked. And it pushed some buttons with me. Members calling other members assholes and dicks. Even if you think scuba chuck was being arrogant (and he certainly does come across that way), he argued the points of the hand while others resorted to name calling. Whether you agree with him or not he added value to this forum. If you've noticed, he hasn't posted since this.

So is this what we want in growing the FTR community? We get someone like Scuba Chuck who has a different point of view and playing style and because he comes across as arrogant when he disagrees we get to call him names and lock the thread? Did he come across as somewhat arrogant with his **sigh**. Yes it certainly did but is this worth chasing him away or having regular posters call him asshole and dickhead?

This seems to be the wrong way to grow a community. If this is how how FTR is going to be run then its only ever going to be Fnord, 'rilla, vqc and a handful of others handing out advice while all others, leave or avoid our forums.

We want to attract other players, especially people with different perspectives from other sites. While Scuba Chuck may have been arrogant, he was met with a rather elitist attitude that may have pushed him away.

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Greedo017

11-16-2005, 10:13 PM

#2 (permalink)

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my quick opinion on this, given others i'm sure have stronger opinions.

scuba chuck can probably make many worthwhile contributions. he had dissenting opinions and was arrogant. everyone has their own personality, but there are lines, he was dancing on the lines, and he was told to back away from the lines. when your attitude becomes a more negative problem than your contributions are positive, its not wrong to say something.

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

DaNutsInYoEye

11-16-2005, 10:16 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

when your attitude becomes a more negative problem than your contributions are positive, its not wrong to say something.

There is an appropriate way to do so though.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

arkana

11-16-2005, 10:41 PM

#4 (permalink)

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He is David Sklansky's bastard son...

j/k

11-16-2005, 10:58 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Agreed, thirteen.

In short, the FTR Community needs to sort itself out or face the consequences.

thirteen

11-16-2005, 11:08 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

my quick opinion on this, given others i'm sure have stronger opinions.

scuba chuck can probably make many worthwhile contributions. he had dissenting opinions and was arrogant.

This is the elitist attitude that is becoming prevelant here. Scuba Chuck decided to face it head on, maybe this is why he was construed as arrogant?

Scuba Chuck whether right or wrong presented opposing views to many common situations. He forced the experts among us to think about and explain their answers, which is something that doesn't always happen. Above all, even if you disagreed with him, Scuba Chuck provoked discussions about poker strategy. I for one liked hearing something other than "fold preflop" and "push the flop".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

everyone has their own personality, but there are lines, he was dancing on the lines, and he was told to back away from the lines.

When a moderator calls him a dick and locks the thread is a line crossed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

when your attitude becomes a more negative problem than your contributions are positive, its not wrong to say something.

Agreed, but was this done appropriately in this thread?

Fnord

11-16-2005, 11:10 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

FTR is the place I let my inner table coach run wild so I can do my thing at the tables...

People behave badly sometimes and outsiders comming into an established community have some ice to break. What else is new?

What exactly are you hoping for here?

Most players are break-evenish or big losers.

Most players haven't much of a clue how to really talk about poker problems. "Pot Odds" in the Commerce 9/18 game means cold calling all sorts of crap after 3 players are in the pot and get even better with a raise or re-raise jammed in there. Winning players in many games for meaningful stakes have horrible misconceptions.

Everyone can't be a winner.

It's hard to convince a "winner" he's not.

Any forum targeted towards the unwashed masses will suck.

At best, we can be a forum for those who want to look at poker seriously, improve, have an open mind, yet aggressivly debate. We do quite well at this.

Any debate worth having will get ugly at times, that's just human nature.

That's my 2 chips on the subject.

Meh, one other point. If you are going to dig at someone, try to have some content or at least be creative. I jumped in because I saw another cocky SoB and was curious if he came here armed and ready or had the even the capacity to look at the flip side of a marginal poker problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

11-16-2005, 11:15 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

When a moderator calls him a dick locks the thread is a line crossed there?

I locked the thread. The signal/noise ratio got silly. If someone else wanted to save it, they certainly had the power to do so. Also, I didn't call him a dick. I tend to use a broader range of 4 letter words, although fuck still has a certain charm used in some contexts... For what it's worth, I was disappointed at the person I think you're refering to's posts there (and I think he is now too) and said as much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

thirteen

11-16-2005, 11:17 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

When a moderator calls him a dick locks the thread is a line crossed there?

I wasn't talking about you in reference to calling him a dick...

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=195184#195184

Furthermore... i thought vqc locked the thread because the last post stating "thread locked" was from him...

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=195518#195518

thirteen

11-16-2005, 11:21 PM

#10 (permalink)

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We could debate this forever. For some reason this whole debacle bothered me.

I thought I'd try to say something because I'm just really disappointed by the situation.

That is all.

Fnord

11-16-2005, 11:23 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

Furthermore... i thought vqc locked the thread because the last post stating "thread locked" was from him...

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=195518#195518

Interesting. I locked it after 'rilla's post requesting for it to be locked. At that point I was done and saw nothing good following. I guess it got re-opened and properly locked after that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Greedo017

11-16-2005, 11:34 PM

#12 (permalink)

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hm, i guess this is a bigger can of apples than i thought it was.

i don't really know what else to say here, i think fnord summed it up pretty well. this is a big forum, personalities will clash. i like dissenting opinion, i don't really see how you got anything elitist from what i said. but if you're gonna put your opinions out there you better be thick skinned if you're defending them to the death, and arrogantly at that, the point of the forum is to try to figure out the best way to play poker not coddle everyone to make them feel like they're the greatest. overall, IMO there is a very friendly and welcoming atmosphere here and ftr really doesn't have any problems, the people who have problems with FTR would have problems anywhere.

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

Lukie

11-17-2005, 12:19 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

At best, we can be a forum for those who want to look at poker seriously, improve, have an open mind, yet aggressivly debate. We do quite well at this.

I agree, and have something to add to this.

Poker players, no matter how good they are, how much they have played, read, won, etc.. ALL poker players have room for improvement. Nobody is so good that they cannot get any better.

When an obviously poor player posts something that is clearly wrong, the BEST thing you can do for that person is to bluntly say, this is wrong, this is a horrible play, you were lucky, that was a terrible suckout, you deserved to lose your stack, etc., then give them advice that they clearly need. If this offends the person, then they need to have thicker skin. You are just trying to help them. Just make sure you were doing it in a respectful manner.

Let's say an obviously bad player posts a HH if him holding AA, and limps behind 3 early position limpers. Reason being he "was scared everyone would fold if he raised." 3 others limp behind him. Flop comes down K68 rainbow. After a series of raises and reraises, hero loses his stack to someone holding 68o.

In response you say something like.. This was played terrible. You deserve to lose your stack here. When you are playing AA, your goal is to get as much money in the pot, but minimize the amount of players in the pot. Raise preflop to 5ishxBB. Ideally you want 1, maybe 2 callers. Bet the flop strong and analyze the situation if somebody plays back at you.

In truth, some people WOULD be offended by that kind of a response. If they don't realize they are a poor player (which they clearly are), and you insult the way they play the game, that could easily make them upset. If this happens, there is really nothing you can do about it. The best thing they can do is listen to you.

In my experience, people are much more apt to listen to somebody who is upfront, brutal, honest, whatever you want to call it. Sometimes the correct move is very clear. More advanced plays generally aren't. When somebody is doing something very wrong, somebody needs to be blunt with them and tell them the truth.

I've posted hand histories here where I've been unsure about a certain move and gotten some feedback that I played it poorly. Looking back on a couple of these (one in particular), I think to myself, "wtf was I thinking?" Sometimes it just takes an outside viewpoint to be able to pinpoint a problem that may not be so obvious to the person it involves.

One last note, barring very unusual circumstances, how can you argue against open-raising KQ from OTB or the CO?

vqc

11-18-2005, 03:03 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Everyone who has an opinion on how this issue was handled can talk to me on AIM
TheGrindHer

if you think that the only time me and scuba ever talked was in the forums and that those interactions were the sole reasons for any bad blood, you are sadly mistaken.

Do you think that the only reason he got called a dick was becuase he was dissenting?

Do you think that the treason the thread was locked was becuase we were afraid that he was going to keep challenging us to defend our views?

Do you guys think that I think I am some sort of poker god and that I am always right? I play the 22s. I am constantly asking for help, from everyone. Good god When he started posting here I shat myself. I was so happy to have antoher good player here to help us out.

Im not sure wat you guys think of me, but please I am not one to go on a power trip and lock threads becuase someone told me that I was wrong, and I couldnt handle the pressure.

vqc

11-18-2005, 03:05 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

when your attitude becomes a more negative problem than your contributions are positive, its not wrong to say something.

There is an appropriate way to do so though.

Your right.
Do you think that the only way I handled it was through calling him names on the forums?

DaNutsInYoEye

11-18-2005, 03:43 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

when your attitude becomes a more negative problem than your contributions are positive, its not wrong to say something.

There is an appropriate way to do so though.

Your right.
Do you think that the only way I handled it was through calling him names on the forums?

The fact that you may have handled it other ways is beside the point. The way you handle it in the forums was inappropriate.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

vqc

11-18-2005, 03:50 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

when your attitude becomes a more negative problem than your contributions are positive, its not wrong to say something.

There is an appropriate way to do so though.

Your right.
Do you think that the only way I handled it was through calling him names on the forums?

The fact that you may have handled it other ways is beside the point. The way you handle it in the forums was inappropriate.

Alright.
Well thatnks for ur opinion.

How do u think I should have handled someone who was patronizing the rest of hte posters?

gabe

11-18-2005, 04:01 AM

#18 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

scuba chuck did act like a dick, but maybe it could have been handled differently. vq said what alot of people were thinking, i dont fault him for it.

<3 vq

DaNutsInYoEye

11-18-2005, 04:30 AM

#19 (permalink)

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I think the first course of action should be to PM the person you have the issue with. Civil discourse in private is a much better option than calling someone out in a public forum where everyone can see it. If that fails then go to a moderator. It's there job to handle issues that arise in their respective forums. If they won't do anything then go to Xianti and tell them that they aren't doing their job.

There are many other ways you can handle it without resorting childish name calling. I'm not trying to sound like I'm on a pedestal or anything, but when you do things like that all it does is make people angry and before you know it there are 10 new threads about how FTR is degenerating into a hateful community.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last. Maybe someone should make a sticky on the proper way to handle a situation if one arises. You'd think that since we're all suppossedly over the age of 18 things such as this would be handled like we're adults. They obviously aren't though.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

vqc

11-18-2005, 04:40 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Did u read my post where I said that I talked to him daily over AIM telling him to stop acting like a dick?

Shoud I hav edited all the posts that contained
***SIGH*** in them?

Should I have asked nicely for him to stop?
SHoudl I have let him continue in his patronizing?
Should I have told FTR to just ignore his annoying stuff and not give him fodder?

gabe

11-18-2005, 04:40 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

I think the first course of action should be to PM the person you have the issue with.

i'm pretty sure he did talk to him privately.

a500lbgorilla

11-18-2005, 04:40 AM

#22 (permalink)

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I would have personally ignored the problem until someone approached me to take care of it. Doing nothing is so much easier.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

gabe

11-18-2005, 04:43 AM

#23 (permalink)

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g1u: you did tak to scuba in private right?
The GrindHer: fuck ya
The GrindHer: are u kidding me
The GrindHer: every fucking day
The GrindHer: Scuba
The GrindHer: stop acting like ur god
The GrindHer: scuba stop talking down to people
The GrindHer: sucba dont be a dick
The GrindHer: sucba dont be a dick
The GrindHer: scuba there are better ways to get ur point accross

vqc

11-18-2005, 04:44 AM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I would have personally ignored the problem until someone approached me to take care of it. Doing nothing is so much easier.

-'rilla

remind me to stop trying to so hard.

DaNutsInYoEye

11-18-2005, 04:56 AM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

Well it sounds like you did definately went out of your way to resolve the issue. You still have to ask yourself what you hope to accomplish by throwing out insults on the boards. If he isn't going to listen to you in private, do you think he will listen to you by posting it in a thread? I'm not defending his actions or trying to attack you or anyone else. I just think that saying things such as that do more harm than good.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

a500lbgorilla

11-18-2005, 04:56 AM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I would have personally ignored the problem until someone approached me to take care of it. Doing nothing is so much easier.

-'rilla

remind me to stop trying to so hard.

I could teach you a whole WORLD of how to not do shit.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

DaNutsInYoEye

11-18-2005, 04:58 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I would have personally ignored the problem until someone approached me to take care of it. Doing nothing is so much easier.

-'rilla

remind me to stop trying to so hard.

I could teach you a whole WORLD of how to not do shit.

-'rilla

That world revolves around an axis centered in my living room.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

Muxy

11-18-2005, 04:59 AM

#28 (permalink)

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vqc

11-18-2005, 05:04 AM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

SIgh I kno u arent attacking me. Its just that IM sad that it had to end up this way (and that everyone thinks im mean =( ).
And I think it was an INSULT not insults =). As far as I recall I only caled him a dick once.

Wat was the best thing to do here?
Wat would YOU have done?

DaNutsInYoEye

11-18-2005, 05:20 AM

#30 (permalink)

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Me? I would have called him a lot worse than that and done it repeatedly until either he left for good or I got banned. I don't handle situations like very well so I don't get involved other than to be patronizing to the people that do.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

vqc

11-18-2005, 05:30 AM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

gotcha =)

Diminish

11-18-2005, 05:51 AM

#32 (permalink)

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lock this thread...

vqc

11-18-2005, 05:52 AM

#33 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Diminish

lock this thread...

cant tell if this is a joke or not.
so original post edited.

ekillian

11-18-2005, 06:25 AM

#34 (permalink)

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IMO Scuba asks for trouble with his attitude. I really don't think this gout out of hand. And I think it was dealt with fine. I believe Scuba to be a good player, but when he discusses a hand he often is VERY narrow minded and hard to talk to. And, just like anyone else, he's not always right. So if he wants to get mad and leave, fine. If he wants to get mad and stay and act the same way, fine. Whatever. I don't mind having an argument with a good player and I can deal with his pissy attitude. But I can also fight fire with fire. Nothing bothers me either way.
This was handled fine. I'm not dissapointed in FTR. I just became a Mod on PSCrew because that place was starting to become all fighting. This forum is much more sensical and useful than that one right now.

http://www.pscrew.com
http://ekillian.blogspot.com/

chardrian

11-18-2005, 05:31 PM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by vqc

Should I have asked nicely for him to stop?
SHoudl I have let him continue in his patronizing?
Should I have told FTR to just ignore his annoying stuff and not give him fodder?
Wat was the best thing to do here?
Wat would YOU have done?

I think your decision to deal with him privately was smart. Clearly he didn't listen to you. However your decision to publicly call him out was a bad decision. I would have locked the thread and noted why I did so - i.e. just state that in your opinion the thread had become too "noisy."

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