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BooG690
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07-23-2009, 12:38 AM
Post subject: Could You Surive Without Money? Meet The Guy Who Does.
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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Sick article.
A man who chooses to live without money...and isn't your average bum.
http://men.style.com/details/feature...mbid=yhp&npu=1
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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boost
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Full House
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Ive read quite a few articles on being homeless by choice and was pretty intrigued. In the end though I decided that, while I may be somewhat of a minimalist, that sorta life style is far to extreme for me.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
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boost, are you saying that we've reached your theoretical maximum of realness?
Even my schizophrenic great uncle was realer than you
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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BigTVeno
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 36
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Thats nuts i cant believe someone can do this
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
boost, are you saying that we've reached your theoretical maximum of realness?
Even my schizophrenic great uncle was realer than you
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I do not understand the words you have typed in the sequence that you typed them.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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I could do it, but I sure as hell don't want to.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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probably a lonely caveman... that would be my downfall, i love social interaction.
it's not amazing that there are people living the way he does, it's amazing that he converted into this in the USA.
i hope to live off of the grid one day... live like this man except with better shelter and better food, oh and have more than one friend.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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See this movie if you like this subject : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
boost, are you saying that we've reached your theoretical maximum of realness?
Even my schizophrenic great uncle was realer than you
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I do not understand the words you have typed in the sequence that you typed them. |
my great uncle was real enough to live on the streets
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
boost, are you saying that we've reached your theoretical maximum of realness?
Even my schizophrenic great uncle was realer than you
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I do not understand the words you have typed in the sequence that you typed them. |
my great uncle was real enough to live on the streets |
thats when keepin it real goes wrong.
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
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yes, I am a really big fan of this movie. People who I know that have read the book say that this along with fear and loathing and the shinning are some of the few movies that are as good as or in some ways better than the book.
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sarbox68
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
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yes, I am a really big fan of this movie. People who I know that have read the book say that this along with fear and loathing and the shinning are some of the few movies that are as good as or in some ways better than the book. |
call me a prick, but I thought Chris McCandless made for a totally unsympathetic character. The dipsh!t wandered off into the woods, ate some bad leaves and froze in a bus. More of a darwinian thinning of the herd than a statement on oppressive parenting, untreated mental illness or reaction to tragic circumstances blah blah.
I guess the moral of the story was that angst, bad herbs and a bus on the open plan in the middle of f-kin winter just don't mix.... 
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
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yes, I am a really big fan of this movie. People who I know that have read the book say that this along with fear and loathing and the shinning are some of the few movies that are as good as or in some ways better than the book. |
call me a prick, but I thought Chris McCandless made for a totally unsympathetic character. The dipsh!t wandered off into the woods, ate some bad leaves and froze in a bus. More of a darwinian thinning of the herd than a statement on oppressive parenting, untreated mental illness or reaction to tragic circumstances blah blah.
I guess the moral of the story was that angst, bad herbs and a bus on the open plan in the middle of f-kin winter just don't mix.... |
yeah, all I could think was gg, dumbass. can you say "backup plan"? I liked the movie tho.
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sarbox68
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BigPapi
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yes, I am a really big fan of this movie. People who I know that have read the book say that this along with fear and loathing and the shinning are some of the few movies that are as good as or in some ways better than the book. |
call me a prick, but I thought Chris McCandless made for a totally unsympathetic character. The dipsh!t wandered off into the woods, ate some bad leaves and froze in a bus. More of a darwinian thinning of the herd than a statement on oppressive parenting, untreated mental illness or reaction to tragic circumstances blah blah.
I guess the moral of the story was that angst, bad herbs and a bus on the open plan in the middle of f-kin winter just don't mix.... |
yeah, all I could think was gg, dumbass. can you say "backup plan"? I liked the movie tho. |
agreed. Sean Penn does know how to make a f-kin movie.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
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His backup plan was: survive.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
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Great movie. Eddie Vedder doing the music for that movie makes it soooo much better. Love the soundtrack.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
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Those of you harping on McCandless have missed some important information. He wasn't just some uninformed wanderer, he did a ton of research on living like he did, but like most people, he didn't cover everything. The berry he ate looked EXACTLY like one that he knew was edible, and he forgot that there was an identical poisonous one. We all die somehow. He hardly died foolishly, but that's not to say that statistically he was looking at death more closely than some of us who live the normal life.
Boost, check out Dersu Uzala and Jeremiah Johnson. They're both about guys living in the wilderness, and both very good. Dersu is one of the best films every made, BTW.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071411/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068762/
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sarbox68
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Those of you harping on McCandless have missed some important information. He wasn't just some uninformed wanderer, he did a ton of research on living like he did, but like most people, he didn't cover everything. The berry he ate looked EXACTLY like one that he knew was edible, and he forgot that there was an identical poisonous one. We all die somehow. He hardly died foolishly, but that's not to say that statistically he was looking at death more closely than some of us who live the normal life.
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Nope. Didn't miss that all... how could you? This is a Sean Penn movie, remember... But that doesn't change anything for me. Still not a sympathetic character (or even a particularly interesting or complex one) IMHO... unless self-destructive angst, melodrama and naivete are your cup of tea.
Cool cinematography tho'...
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
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wow, i did not think his was a character of self-destructive angst, melodrama and naivete at all.
maybe old squares take the movie one way and us hip youngsters take it in a more meaningful light.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
wow, i did not think his was a character of self-destructive angst, melodrama and naivete at all.
maybe old squares take the movie one way and us hip youngsters take it in a more meaningful light.
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ya Im with you on this one.
The man left society. Not just in the sense of living a great distance from it, but in the sense that he abandoned societies flawed value system. You shouldnt feel sympathetic for him, he didnt fail. He found himself. Did he really need anything else? Through his short journey he was able to understand far more about life than many people who manage to live to a ripe old age.
You wont find self discovery or enlightenment on the path to easytown.
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sarbox68
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Full House
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wandering off into the wilderness poorly equipped, trained and prepared is either naivete or stupidity -- kind of on par with taking on Everest w/ a stick and backpack full of cliff bars 'cause you read some good books on bouldering.... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and go with naivete.
The guy's behavior and decisions destined him to be dead, prolly sooner rather than later. That's self-destructive or oblivious - depending how many layers you wanna dig psychologically.
Angst - meh, manifested in an extreme need for escapism from the establishment at an early age. Difficulty finding place in the world / culture / community driving a desire to withdraw. I dunno... maybe something other than angst.
And the melodrama was prolly more due to Sean Penn's directorial biz as usual. The whole find the leaf in the book, oh nooooes the wrong leaf, getting skinny, getting skinny, getting dead with lots of long shots of zombie pallor and deteriorating motor skills. So FMP... "melodrama in direction"...
Did I mention the cinematography was cool?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
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It wasnt that his actions meant that he was to reach a sooner end. He cared fuck all about that. He wanted to really learn how to live.
and that shits like deep.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Those of you harping on McCandless have missed some important information. He wasn't just some uninformed wanderer, he did a ton of research on living like he did
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Regardless of what he might have known, he still went into the bush unprepared. The guy who drove him to the trail was aghast at how meager McCandless' supplies were and gave him boots and food. He was hunting at the wrong time of year and almost starved to death long before he was poisoned. When he tried to walk out, he was met with the thaw-fed raging river that was once a stream. Either he still didn't know enough or his problem wasn't about knowledge so much as ego. Likely, it was a bit of both.
I still found both the book and the film great though. I think Chris and people like him are fascinating...absolutely restless coupled with sketchy judgment. I know some people like this in my personal life and it's always interesting to get their perspective on things.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I still found both the book and the film great though. I think Chris and people like him are fascinating...absolutely restless coupled with apparently sketchy judgment. I know some people like this in my personal life and it's always interesting to get their perspective on things.
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totally agree with a slight edit.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
And the melodrama was prolly more due to Sean Penn's directorial biz as usual. The whole find the leaf in the book, oh nooooes the wrong leaf, getting skinny, getting skinny, getting dead with lots of long shots of zombie pallor and deteriorating motor skills. So FMP... "melodrama in direction"...
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Penn lifted most of the melodrama from Krakauer's book and Krakauer lifted much of that from McCandless' own journal. Sometimes situations are naturally melodramatic...should Penn have played it down?
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sarbox68
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
maybe old squares take the movie one way and us hip youngsters are the first to have ever thought of existential escapism as the new cool way out.
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FYP
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sarbox68
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
And the melodrama was prolly more due to Sean Penn's directorial biz as usual. The whole find the leaf in the book, oh nooooes the wrong leaf, getting skinny, getting skinny, getting dead with lots of long shots of zombie pallor and deteriorating motor skills. So FMP... "melodrama in direction"...
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Penn lifted most of the melodrama from Krakauer's book and Krakauer lifted much of that from McCandless' own journal. Sometimes situations are naturally melodramatic...should Penn have played it down? |
Penn was looking to have a very specific effect on his audience. Dude does nothing artistically by accident... and he tends to be on the melodramatic side of center, as an actor and evidently as a director. No harm no foul. Dude's great. But I think we gotta agree that his artistic vision and license was all over this thing.
And I don't think he should have done anything different than he did. It's his move. It stands as such. MHO was it was a bit over the top in spots. But meh... lot of other people loved it.
Cool cinematography.......
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I still found both the book and the film great though. I think Chris and people like him are fascinating...absolutely restless coupled with apparently sketchy judgment. I know some people like this in my personal life and it's always interesting to get their perspective on things.
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totally agree with a slight edit. |
If he hadn't have tried to walk out, I'd be more apt to agree with you.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
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lol are people saying he was poorly equipped and knowledgeable? What? The guy survived for quite some time in very unforgiving territory. He was no Les Stroud, but he most certainly was no novice.
Animals (remember, humans are animals) die ALL the time due to the harshness of the wilderness. Not to mention that humans are social and tribal animals, and we tend to do very poorly when solitary. McCandless surviving as long as he did is a pretty big deal given that if you put any one of us out there right now we're dying in a matter of days.
Yes, McCandless could have been more prepared. Yes, he could have chosen a different route (which he philosophically did not want to choose), but that holds true for everybody, and he actually did quite well, statistically.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that if you had to survive solo in the wilderness that it wouldn't be the hardest thing you've ever done, by far
And seriously, don't disregard how often wild animals die from lack of equipment, knowledge, or skill. Even the most equipped animals on the planet get fucked every way possible due to the harsh nature of the wild.
Also, McCandless survived in conditions worse than he prepared for. He wasn't planning on spending time out there during the winter, he didn't have some kind of crazy death wish. He apparently didn't learn that rivers get higher and faster during the freezing seasons. That type of thing is more along the lines of honest mistake than foolishness.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Also, McCandless survived in conditions worse than he prepared for. He wasn't planning on spending time out there during the winter, he didn't have some kind of crazy death wish. He apparently didn't learn that rivers get higher and faster during the freezing seasons. That type of thing is more along the lines of honest mistake than foolishness.
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No, he pretty much had improved conditions as time wore on, aside from the river. He went in April and he didn't even make it to the end of the summer.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
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This pretty much sums up how ill prepared he was: there was a hand operated tram a 1/4 mile from where he tried to cross the river on his way out, a tram that is shown on regional maps. He had no idea it was there, however, because he didn't bring a map.
He chose not to bring a map, among other things. Sure, on one hand he survived under harsh conditions for a significant amount of time, maybe longer than most, maybe not. But that is absolutely moot if the topic is that his lack of preparedness did him in. A map would have saved his life.
Whether or not he truly cared about that is another matter altogether.
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BoondockSaint
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Indiana
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0235327/
Movie about the bum lifestyle in Manhattan. These bums all live underground next to train tracks. I can't remember any of them doing it by choice but a good documentary about this group of bums.
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Boondock the Bot-Slayer
-'rilla
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Also, McCandless survived in conditions worse than he prepared for. He wasn't planning on spending time out there during the winter, he didn't have some kind of crazy death wish. He apparently didn't learn that rivers get higher and faster during the freezing seasons. That type of thing is more along the lines of honest mistake than foolishness.
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No, he pretty much had improved conditions as time wore on, aside from the river. He went in April and he didn't even make it to the end of the summer. |
Wait, you're right about that. My bad
The whole reason for this contention, though, is that there's no reason to feel sorry for him, which I find contention with since if the viewer of the film is thinking that then they've missed the entire point of the film. I guess I just want to point that out, even though I did get some facts wrong
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well I guess he's not getting laid
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sarbox68
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
The whole reason for this contention, though, is that there's no reason to feel sorry for him
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Wuf - Completely agree. Hence a totally unsympathetic character. Dude chooses to wander off into the woods unprepared and dies. The end. Which is why I think all of Penn's efforts to make the ending dramatic were kinda misplaced. I didn't really care when the dude died, as his reckless actions/decisions leading up to the actual event pretty much implied that he didn't care either. Or he was naive, or less than bright. I guess I'll at least give him credit for being self-awarene enough to be reckless...
Did I mention the pretty pictures?
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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yes, a map would have saved his life.
So would a years supply of MRE's, a satellite phone, or a Sherpa. However as you can detect in my sarcasm this train of throught completely misses the point.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
yes, a map would have saved his life.
So would a years supply of MRE's, a satellite phone, or a Sherpa. However as you can detect in my sarcasm this train of throught completely misses the point.
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Actually just a more profound awareness of the real value of life, or at least enough to be willing to trade just enough impulse for the rational will to make choices that he's likely to survive would have sufficed...
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
yes, a map would have saved his life.
So would a years supply of MRE's, a satellite phone, or a Sherpa. However as you can detect in my sarcasm this train of throught completely misses the point.
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Again, he himself was apparently over the point I think you're referring to. He wrote notes about discovering what he was looking for and wanting to be with his friends and family, about being sufficiently enlightened, as you called it. He didn't necessarily intend to die to achieve it. He clearly wanted to leave but couldn't.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
yes, a map would have saved his life.
So would a years supply of MRE's, a satellite phone, or a Sherpa. However as you can detect in my sarcasm this train of throught completely misses the point.
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Again, he himself was apparently over the point I think you're referring to. He wrote notes about discovering what he was looking for and wanting to be with his friends and family, about being sufficiently enlightened, as you called it. He didn't necessarily intend to die to achieve it. He clearly wanted to leave but couldn't. |
$10 says he would've gladly taken the map, the sat phone, the MRE's and probably even the Sherpa by the time he had his "oh sh!t ... I probably should have thought this through more...." moment
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
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this debate is exactly why the movie was good
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pokerdog283
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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I just dont see deciding to be homeless. I dont decide to be broke but the tax man feels I should be!
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
yes, a map would have saved his life.
So would a years supply of MRE's, a satellite phone, or a Sherpa. However as you can detect in my sarcasm this train of throught completely misses the point.
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Actually just a more profound awareness of the real value of life, or at least enough to be willing to trade just enough impulse for the rational will to make choices that he's likely to survive would have sufficed... |
you all are being horribly results oriented.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boost
yes, a map would have saved his life.
So would a years supply of MRE's, a satellite phone, or a Sherpa. However as you can detect in my sarcasm this train of throught completely misses the point.
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Actually just a more profound awareness of the real value of life, or at least enough to be willing to trade just enough impulse for the rational will to make choices that he's likely to survive would have sufficed... |
you all are being horribly results oriented. |
Effectively committing suicide, whether partially unintentional, unplanned or unexpected, is about as results oriented as you can get....
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
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yah you just made his point? you cant get beyond the fact that the result was his apparent suicide.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
yah you just made his point? you cant get beyond the fact that the result was his apparent suicide.
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And you can't get past the point that the act of existential escapism doesn't by itself make someone tragic, heroic, enlightened or even hip. And that's about all he succeeded in doing. Even at the most basic level this guy chose a very unenlightened way to pursue enlightenment... not even getting to the point of valuing the potential of his own existence beyond the moment. In your own words 'rilla "he cared fuck all about that." So he wandered off, made some poor choices and died.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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and they made a great movie about it
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
and they made a great movie about it
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+1 <3
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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ha, this discussion is actually pretty awesome.
and while I dont agree with you, sarbox, I can see where you are coming from. And you make pretty good points, however I think that youre still stuck on the results. Rewrite the story in your head and have him making it home to reunite with his sister and parents. Or rewrite it so that he has a map, his own boots, a flare gun, a satellite phone, whatever, yet he still dies. Does your opinion remain the same in either case? In both?
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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@Boost - I think I understand what you're saying. It really depends here on how you parse motive/intent and action. The act of independent journey as a part of self-discovery is a pretty foundational part of the human experience. His act of wandering into the woods in pursuit of discovery could be interpreted in this way.
However, IMHO his actions betray the fact that he didn't do this with a longer life journey in mind. Even if it was subconsciously, he chose not to prepare. I can think of four motives behind why - naivete (idealism trumped the rational - sad, but not especially complex), stupidity (he just wasn’t that bright, but this doesn’t fit at all…), recklessness (“I see and recognize the risk, but don’t really care ‘cause deep down I don’t think it will happen to me” -- the classic perceived immortality of youth) or self-destructiveness (“I see the risk, recognize it as real and likely, and choose to not give a f-ck”). I’d be very curious to hear your thoughts on other options…
The likelihood of him coming home to family with a life lesson learned only exists if he takes on the task with adequate preparation. He didn’t (for one of the above reasons or others I’m not thinking of) and therefore this was a highly unlikely outcome. And the map, boots, flare gun, etc. would have required the same acceptance of the need to prepare because of a desire to continue past the event. Same issue.
So I’m not hung up on the outcome. I think it was almost a foregone conclusion once he made the decision to be so poorly prepared. I think it’s that decision that’s most telling about his true motive. And that motive is what I find lacking in complexity and, at the end of the day, unsympathetic.
Thoughts?
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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I still completely think you are caught up on the results. His chance of returning would be insanely hard to determine and I think saying its a very slim chance is absurd.
http://www.linecamp.com/museums/amer...ntiersmen.html
Please read up on these guys. They did not have rubber boots, maps, satellite phones, or even a library to go read up on survival skills.
As far as his motive goes... First of all I dont see why it needs to make us feel sympathetic. His journey is not about you or me, its about him. Second why does it need to be complex? The world as he knew it did not seem to work for him. So youre right, he did commit suicide. But he didnt terminate his life, he terminated his existence in our society. It didnt work for him, so he left it. Plain and simple, not at all complex.
Oh and you keep saying "adequate preparation" or things similar to this. My point about the satellite phone, sherpa, ect. is that this phrase is relative. I mean he could have also had an advance team go first and build him a cozy log cabin. Is a map a simple thing to bring that does not require much effort? Yes, but it also changes the experience. If you have a map, youre no longer exploring, youre following. And the fact remains that you can absolutely survive without a map, so why bring it if its going to change your trip in a way you dont want.
So pretty much if we establish that no map equals no or a very slim chance of survival. Then yes, he was reckless and self destructive no matter what his reason was for not bringing it. However I think its pretty clear that you very well can survive without a map. Does it increase the chance of dieing in the wilderness? Ya, but is it a deathwish as you seem to want us all to believe? Absolutely not.
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