Originally Posted by Pelion

Germany in 1938 was a first world country with a pretty powerful military.

Iraq is and was a third world country with no military to speak of, and an airforce that had to be buried in the desert to prevent it being destroyed.


In fact if you look at american foreign policy towards the USSR, China, N. Korea etc etc etc there is no reason to think they would have risked invading a leading military power. America has a history of invading those countries who have already been brought to their knees, and steering well clear of anyone who is actually a threat to them.

Originally Posted by Lukie

major instability in a region that houses the greatest natural treasure in the history of the world.

Originally Posted by dev

Iraq was a fairly stable country that posed little to no threat in comparison to some of it's neighbors.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Ignore the military capability that Iraq had when the US/coalition invaded a few years ago.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Instead focus on root causes on how/why future conflicts/wars would break out. Whether it be Germany's military agression (in the past) or major instability in a region that houses the greatest natural treasure in the history of the world.

Originally Posted by dev

btw... Iraq hasn't been a third world country in quite some time, but it seems to be on its way back now.

Originally Posted by dev

nh Pelion. I guess we do have different definitions on the term 'third world', but I looked around the net, and so does everyone else.

The US is the cause of a lot of suffering in a lot of different places... Saddam killed his own people under the watchful eye of the US and we did nothing. We could have prevented it. What we choose to prevent is oil getting out of our grasp.

Do your own research on this. Don't listen to the talking heads on the TV or take anything in print for granted. If you give a shit at all about the world you live in, you can look for alternative sources. The UN has tried to pass a number of resolutions against state-sponsored terrorism. The US has vetoed all of them. The reason for this is that those resolutions would have considered the US a terrorist state.

What we are doing to Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with freedom, democracy, or stopping terrorist attacks against the US.

Originally Posted by pgil

do you really think that the US could do to Iran what it did to Iraq?? you must be dreaming. sure they could bomb the shit out of it, but that wont do much without being followed by a ground force. and Iran is a hell of a lot larger than iraq, has double the population, has a strong economy, a highly educated (comparatively) populace and a military. plus it still has an ally in russia. there is just no way in hell that the U.S. could go after iran in the same way they did iraq. and that is why they are attempting to negotiate with iran which they did not do with iraq. that is also why they try to negotiate with north korea. they do not want to attack a country that can fight back.

Originally Posted by dev

God, please will people start doing some research before spouting off what fox news told them?

Originally Posted by pgil

there is no way the US could 'take over' iran. i do agree that they could bomb the shit out of them, but there is no way that a ground force would be able to occupy and control iran. unless of course they killed everyone first, but i think that some other countries would intervene before genocide occured. because russia needs oil too.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I love people who say "This war is all about oil! The US WANTS IT!" Well, we have essentially unfettered access to it. We control the fields. We haven't taken any. Why? Can't safely export it yet? I doubt that.

Look, I voted for Bush. I'll admit to that. And I supported (and continue to support) this war, NOT because of WMDs, NOT because of supposed "terrorist ties", but because the entire middle east had become a massive massive powder keg.



Someone point to Iraq on the map for me. See how its DEAD CENTER of the "middle east"? Iraq is the centerpiece to stabilizing the region. If we can control the center, we can control the edge. Its military tactics and planning 101 (a class I highly suggest, required for us ROTC brats)

But it also brings every enemy FROM the edge to the MIDDLE -- which for some reason, no one sems to have fucking planned for. I don't know why -- its not Bush's fault. I can tell you with 100% certainty Bush had very precious little to do with the military planning. But as POTUS and therefore CIC, it falls on him - thats how our command structure works.

Maybe they did plan for it, but never told the American Public. So now we're years into it with no end and the citizens are, "wtfbbq"ing.

Essentially instead of dropping in and assaulting a weak edge, we've parachuted into the middle and will fight wave after wave of enemy until there simply aren't any left to fight. Theres no doubt we can win this. We wouldnt have gone straight into the center if we couldn't. Our military is vastly superior and can completely handle wave after wave of enemy. It just takes time.

Iraq is the key to the region. Syria starts acting up? We've got our military about an hours flight away. They'd be squashed before they could mobilize and THEY KNOW IT. Iran? Same. Thats why they're gettin pissy NOW rather than later. As soon as we have a solid base in iraq, they know theyre toast.

Originally Posted by boostNslide

Also in the culture, we have put our big dumb red white and blue fist into, will to fight pretty much starts from birth. And the will to fight is easily directed at us. My will to fight however is not so endless, its actually very minute(sp?).

Originally Posted by Greedo017

fyp. my will to fight in the middle east extends until the blind hatred and the determination to crush the west and spread sharia law to the entire world ends. if we have to have iraq act as a black hole to suck these individuals into attacking us there rather than here, so be it.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

1) i don't want to get shot?

Originally Posted by Greedo017

it would also be nice if muslims as a whole would realize that freedom is ok and give up the ridiculous and oppressive parts of sharia law, but i guess i can only ask so much at a time.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

have you ever gone to public protests of the war or gone to iraq to encourage peace?

Originally Posted by Greedo017

the people we are fighting currently in iraq are primarily terrorists of the al qaeda et al variety who are interested in no more than crushing the "infidel", the western view of the world, and establishing worldwide sharia law.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

it would also be nice if muslims as a whole would realize that freedom is ok and give up the ridiculous and oppressive parts of sharia law

Originally Posted by Pelion

Yes

Ive spent quite alot of my time fighting against this war because I feel it is unjust and I know our troops, who have promised their lives for our protection, are having to put their lives at risk when we are in no danger. At the same time the iraqi people who we are "freeing" are being killed by the thousands and more and more people are turning to terrorism for revenge. This war has not made any part of the world a safer place and things are still getting worse.

Originally Posted by dev

Now we're back to fighting a religion instead of a country. I wish we had a Muslim poster here to set you straight, because I know very little about the Muslim religion. I do know that The regime in Iraq was less fundamentalist than the regime in Saudi Arabia, yet we're in Iraq.

Originally Posted by dev

You're not serious, are you? There is actually someone who believes Cheney when he says "They hate us because of our freedom!" Come on, really, they hate us because we bombed/shot their father/brother/uncle/mother/sister or aunt or sold weapons to the people who did. Yes, they hate us, and they have damn good reason to. We're not combating terrorism, we're creating more of it.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

we are dealing with muslims now because they are bringing the fight to our front door and extremists will not let this issue die down.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

i don't believe in cultural relativism: sharia law has things in it which are just plain wrong, whereas U.S. law does not, and anything that is questionable is wrong to such a lesser degree that it is a non-problem.

2. i don't believe in cultural relativism. making people not show genitals/boobs is morally correct, hanging people because they want to change religions/vote is not.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

3. what you're saying is different from what pelion said and i completely agree. I just don't think that extra fighters against us gained in this manner are significant. the cause is deep rooted and widespread enough, it isn't going to die out or be significantly weakened if it didn't have these people.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

1) i don't want to get shot?

Originally Posted by Greedo017

2) we don't bomb random people's children and this is no more than a dickhole strawman argument, and i really don't appreciate it

Originally Posted by Greedo017

3) the people we are fighting currently in iraq are primarily terrorists of the al qaeda et al variety who are interested in no more than crushing the "infidel", the western view of the world, and establishing worldwide sharia law.

Originally Posted by Greedo017

fair enough. what are you protesting against though? you want a full U.S. pullout immediately?