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fishstick
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05-13-2004, 06:35 PM
Post subject: blackjack card counting
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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this is way off topic, but does anyone here have any recent experience blackjack card counting in a casino? i'm just curious what the "environment" is like these days.
my dad was a card counter back in the 70's and 80's and did pretty well. i used to run drills with him when i was kid, and i'm a decent counter myself. when he did well, i got a cut, which was really a bribe to not let mom know how much he really won. 
i thought it might be an interesting diversion, but the casinos are a lot more sensitive about it now than they were 20 years ago.
any info is appreciated.
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codemachine
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Undisclosed
Posts: 87
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Your dad wasn't part of the MIT Blackjack team was he? hehehe 
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
cod3machin3
-=insert witty, thought provoking comment here=-
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by codemachine
Your dad wasn't part of the MIT Blackjack team was he? hehehe |
i wish!
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Bite
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 113
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Is it not legal to count cards? How can they tell someone is counting ? It's not like you have to tell the dealer or anything and casinos can't blame people for beeing lucky can they?
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ttanaka
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,184
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Hey Fish, I'm a blackjack card counter. Blackjack used to be my game before holdem. Even with counting cards, poker is WAY easier to win money.
If I go to Vegas with my friends, we usually play both, I've converted most of my friends to poker, but there are some that still would rather play blackjack, so occasionally we'll spend some time at the blackjack tables. And, if I'm going to do that, well I'll be counting.
Most of my friends don't count, but you only really need one card counter at the table, and the rest of the guys, knowing that I'm counting, just follow my bet. I always play first base, and would take my time placing my bet so the rest of the table can adjust if necessary.
Counting cards isn't really outlawed, but the casino always reserves the right to ask you to leave. Of course, at the stakes I play, which is a $25 table at the highest, but usually a $10 table, no one really cares at that level, so I've never had any problems. Even when my counting is obvious - like when a friend asks, "Hey, Ty, where's the count at?" - we've never had any negative repercussions.
Blackjack is so random, even with counting cards, it seems like every other hand is taking a bad beat...
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bite
Is it not legal to count cards? How can they tell someone is counting ? It's not like you have to tell the dealer or anything and casinos can't blame people for beeing lucky can they? |
some dealers will count out of boredom, and when they see you upping your bet as the count gets higher, you might be asked to leave. pit bosses watch for "erratic" betting behavoir as well. if the stakes are high enough, you may get formally barred.
of course, there are 'lots of ways to disguise it, and you can get pretty tricky with spotters and such tracking the count. that way, you can laugh it up, have some drinks, be real social, and still bet in accordance with the count.
looks like (per tyson) at the stakes i'd be interested in, it isn't much of issue.
i do remember hearing about my dad getting "back roomed" with a couple of scary big guys in the 70's after he was up about $15k - he didn't get hurt, but he also avoided that casino (can't remember which one).
tyson - i'll pm you to pick your brain a little if you don't mind.
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Bite
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 113
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Talk about house rules...it's stupid they can ask anyone to leave just because they are beating the game. I mean they could use more decks or increase the house edge any way but asking successful players to leave is a little too much innit? That's no way to treat a customer. 
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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Sorry for the dumb Q but how exactly does it work ?
Is it just a case of 4-5 pack * so many 10s and just count backwards how many are left vs the cards for increased % ?
I went to my local casino the w/e, its small and very local i was hoping for a limit game but all they have is BJ and Roulette. The roullete has a 5*bet for 2:1 and 1:1 bets so I don't have the BR to play my normal system of waiting for 3-5 misses and then bet and double up until it comes 
I was going to play BJ but there seemed some decent players there and I didnt want to embaress myself. I did walk away with 10 chips though to practice tricks and I can now shuffle 10 chips (i.e. T10 split to two T5 stacks and then shuffled back to the T10
I'm hoping they still have holdem tourneys on Thursdays and I'll be saving my chip tricks for when i go for a bluff 
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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2,3,4,5,6 = plus 1
10, J, Q, K, A = minus 1
7,8,9 = 0
Everytime a card is dealt you add or subtract from the running count. You should begin at the very start of a new shoe. A positive count means that there are more 10s in the deck, which is a favorable situation. You pump up your bet when the count is like +6 or better.
Counting combined with basic BJ strategy will give the player a sleight statistical advantage. However, just like poker there are bad beats and even when the count is favorable you can lose. MIT was up almost a million and lost most of it back because of a cold streak.
The above is the most basic counting strategy. The professionals can track cards and have some more advanced techniques.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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playing solid computer-simulated dictated strategy, you knock the house advantage down to about .5% without counting.
with counting and the above strategy, the player can pick-up ~1% advantage over the house.
still big swings, and you need a big BR to weather the swings.
counting at home in my family room is easy, we'll see about the casino...
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Eric
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SteveO
2,3,4,5,6 = plus 1
10, J, Q, K, A = minus 1
7,8,9 = 0
The above is the most basic counting strategy.
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There is another variation that is even more basic. It is the same as above except that 2 and A are not counted(along with 7,8,9).
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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From what I've heard most Casinos have pretty much killed BJ counting.
Continuous shufflers, lots of decks and revised BJ payoffs (the new single deck game) all take away the counter's edge.
The MIT team had a very interesting way to get around the problem of erratic betting amounts via team play.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
From what I've heard most Casinos have pretty much killed BJ counting.
Continuous shufflers, lots of decks and revised BJ payoffs (the new single deck game) all take away the counter's edge.
The MIT team had a very interesting way to get around the problem of erratic betting amounts via team play.
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from what i've been hearing and reading, anything $50 and above, they're watching like hawks. at the lower bets, they don't pay so much attention.
if the house is playing favorable rules (e.g. stand on soft 17, etc.) and you're getting good penetration into the shoe (ideally 75%), the environment should be right.
there are still a few small limit 1-2 deck games to be found - with decent penetration, these should be ideal for counting.
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Aces
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bite
Talk about house rules...it's stupid they can ask anyone to leave just because they are beating the game. I mean they could use more decks or increase the house edge any way but asking successful players to leave is a little too much innit? That's no way to treat a customer. |
I believe in Atlantice City they can't make you leave if they suspect counting, but they can shuffle more often. In Vegas, they can ban you for counting or suspected counting.
As fishtick mentioned, I don't think too many successful card counters are left with casinos so aware of them.
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Bite
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 113
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Banning someone for counting is like banning someone from the cardrooms for playing decent poker. Counting is just a part of the game. Stupid that they can ban people for that,,,really.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bite
Banning someone for counting is like banning someone from the cardrooms for playing decent poker. Counting is just a part of the game. Stupid that they can ban people for that,,,really.
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i couldn't agree more! the difference is: a good poker player still pays a rake.
i kind of look at casinos like the oil companies: how much #^$#@& profit do you have to make!!! 
i think my wife and i may try some team work - we just can't seem to decide who's going to be the counter, and who's going to be the loud, drunk distracting one. 
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aces
I believe in Atlantice City they can't make you leave if they suspect counting, but they can shuffle more often. In Vegas, they can ban you for counting or suspected counting.
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My understanding is that the casinos (and restaurants, bars, grocery stores, or any other business) reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, which is perfectly legal as long as they do not discriminate by race, gender, religion, disability, etc. They are not required to give any reason why they are refusing you service, and they don't give you one when they ask you to leave. They all have a standard script that they read to people to make sure they will not get sued.. They do not have to suspect you of card counting.
I'm also told that the big casinos share information and basically maintain a blacklist of suspected card counters. If they recognize you, then as soon as you walk in the door, they will ask you to leave and they will not deal to you.
I don't see how the Atlantic City casinos would be not allowed to do this, unless they passed a special law that says the casinos must deal to everyone.
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheNatural
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aces
I believe in Atlantice City they can't make you leave if they suspect counting, but they can shuffle more often. In Vegas, they can ban you for counting or suspected counting.
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My understanding is that the casinos (and restaurants, bars, grocery stores, or any other business) reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, which is perfectly legal as long as they do not discriminate by race, gender, religion, disability, etc. They are not required to give any reason why they are refusing you service, and they don't give you one when they ask you to leave. They all have a standard script that they read to people to make sure they will not get sued.. They do not have to suspect you of card counting.
I'm also told that the big casinos share information and basically maintain a blacklist of suspected card counters. If they recognize you, then as soon as you walk in the door, they will ask you to leave and they will not deal to you.
I don't see how the Atlantic City casinos would be not allowed to do this, unless they passed a special law that says the casinos must deal to everyone. |
unless it's changed, the deal with atlantic city is a that court case ruled in favor a of the player, disallowing banning of suspected card counters. HOWEVER, if they think you are counting, you get the special treatment which consists of a shuffle after every deal (plus the stink-eye from the pit boss and maybe a scary looking guy).
in vegas, one of two things happens. you are either just asked to leave, end of story. or, you are officially "banned" and get the speech which basically says that if you come back, you are guilty of trespassing and will be removed and charged accordingly.
what i don't have a good feel for is if you sit down at a $5 table, keep your biggest bet under $20, be subtle when changing betting levels and (assuming good cards with good counts) grind out under $300 over the course of a few hours, are you really worth their trouble? according to some i've talked to, if you stay under $50 bets, they don't pay too much attention.
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philla
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12
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they can ask anyone to leave in atlantic city too im not sure about banning . they can ask u to leave even if ur not counting. i was up 4500 at bl at balleys and was asked to leave. i have since been back but i mostly play nl at the taj
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fishstick
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 1,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by philla
they can ask anyone to leave in atlantic city too im not sure about banning . they can ask u to leave even if ur not counting. i was up 4500 at bl at balleys and was asked to leave. i have since been back but i mostly play nl at the taj
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were you counting, or "acting" like you were? i'm surprised they'd alienate a customer over $4500.
the casinos: "please come in and play our games of chance with the possibility of winning 'lots of money, however, if should happen to win, you will be asked to leave." 
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fishstick
unless it's changed, the deal with atlantic city is a that court case ruled in favor a of the player, disallowing banning of suspected card counters.
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I stand corrected. I was unaware of this case.
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betaldino
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 1
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Hi there,
How're you guys doing? I'm a bit new here. I was searching on the web for info about blackjack and cardcounting tricks. I played poker quite a while now on my computer to practice for the real thing; the casino's. Turns out I'm quite good at it and I always win. So I think it's about time I took the next step. But I want to do it right from the beginning. Knowing how to win doesn't seem to be the only thing you should master in this discipline. You can win all you want but if they discover your game is over.
That's why I'd like to inform myself about how casino's work to discover card counter. Do you have any tips for my how not to get discovered? I also found the following article in my search fo information about how card counters get discovered. http://www.csoonline.com/read/100103...ebar_1787.html
This site explains that casino's now work with digital camera's which can recognize faces of known card counters and which can see if someone is counting card on the spot (without knowing the player). I was wondering if my way of playing could alert the dealer or the guards. I usually play low stake (10$) the whole time, until I hit a big loosing streak without having good cards and in addition no high cards for a while. When this happens I put a stake on the table of 50$. When I loose, I double to 100$, when I loose again, I double again to 200$. Mostly I win before that, because the standard deviation has already occurred. After winning I continue like I did in the biginning with low stakes. I repeat this procedure untill I have over 200$. I cash in and go home. Tomorrow there is another day. In the few cases I loose even when I dubble stake untill 200$ I start over again off course, with 50 $, then 100, then 200$. It's too dangerous to keep betting stakes of 200$. I found that that's a good way to loose big so. But my question is, would my way of playing be noticed in Vegas of Atlantic City. By the way, where should I start? In Vegas or in Atlantic City?
Ok, so apart from the questions about how not to get discovered, I have some other questions. Let's say I did get discovered in a Vegas or Atlantic City casino. Will I just be banned in the specific casino, or in all casino's in Vegas or Atlantic City?
Another thing, is there, in th U.S. a indentification control when entering the casino's? In Belgium there is. In reference to that fact, do casino's share information about their clients, even if they are not banned? I want to know this because I'd like to do a different casino each weekend (I prefer the weekends and holidays, because then then it is more crowded in the Belgian casino's, and the chance of attracting attention is smaller) all over the world. That way I will certainly not attract too much attention I figured. But the problem is if I would do that, and the casino's share information about clients frequenting casino's (even not banned players), it would seem odd to them, that I frequent that much casino's without having an occupation or profession. In that case they would certainly keep an eye on me.
I have to say some of the information on this forum helped me a lot so far. But I'd really be gratefull if you guys could also help me with the questions that are still remaining in my mind. Thanks a lot and keep up the good work!!!
p.s. If you want tips on soccer games in Europe, go to the sit Globetting.com!!! I'm a registered tipster on that site and I give tips on games every weekend. Good tips!!! You can see my stats if you want on that same site.
This month (which was a good month) for instance my stats are:
Bets: 24
Hit rate: 79 %
Total Stake: 228.00
Profit: 99.95
Yield: 44 % (this is more than in a bank, and with the bank it is per year, here it is per weekend)
There is also a tipster competition in which I compete on this particular site. I started competing in August, and now, 5 month later, I have 4 top 3 places. There is a ranking made up each month because each month the first 10 win a prize. My name on that site is betaldino.
I can realy advise you to go take a look. Well I'm going to leave you now.
Thanks for helping me out and good luck!!!
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fatshaft
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Aberdeen > Isle of Man > Warrington > Leamington Spa> where next?
Posts: 35
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bite
Banning someone for counting is like banning someone from the cardrooms for playing decent poker. Counting is just a part of the game. Stupid that they can ban people for that,,,really.
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Hardly, one is against the house and you are taking their money, if you are good then you WILL beat them over time, the other they have no interest in, you pay the rake win or lose.
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deleteme
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
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I recommend not playing BlackJack online, especially at PokerRoom.com.
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fatshaft
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Aberdeen > Isle of Man > Warrington > Leamington Spa> where next?
Posts: 35
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by freefiftydollarsdotcom
I recommend not playing BlackJack online, especially at PokerRoom.com.
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Online is a totally different proposition. However if you can find a bonus that allows BJ play to count then you are on a winner unless you have no idea of basic strategy
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deleteme
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8
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I would agree, nothing wrong with free cash to play some BJ with, just don't make any of your own deposits to play online.
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kling
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Philly, PA
Posts: 203
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I just finished reading "Bringing Down the House", the story about the MIT grads that took Vegas for millions. It was a great book, but like many have said, casinos have taken steps to limit the edge card counters hold. The amount of money that they wound up with is very hard to believe, though.
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aka wildwest15
They all know me as a small timer, but that's about to change.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wildwest15
I just finished reading "Bringing Down the House", the story about the MIT grads that took Vegas for millions. It was a great book, but like many have said, casinos have taken steps to limit the edge card counters hold. The amount of money that they wound up with is very hard to believe, though.
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The continual automatic shuffle machines are taking over like crazy, making card counting impossible. It's hard to find BJ tables that don't use them these days. Not that I have any interest in playing blackjack anymore.
By the way, "Bringing Down the House" is being made into a movie with Kevin Spacey in the role of the MIT professor that taught them. Due out later this year, I believe. They're changing the title, though. I forgot what it's called now.
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BoondockSaint
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,844
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I just saw a show on the travel channel i think it was on this. An hour long and hella interesting. They said the hardest part in the beginning before the casinos had any idea what was going on was getting the money back home without drawing attention. I dont know if simply for tax evasion purposes or what since they won it legally but the one dude said once he had 650,000 on him going through an airport and another set of guys had over a million dollars. They would bring back a lot in chips too I guess so it wasnt all cash and they said sometimes they would have problems with airport security scanners thinking the chips in their configuration was some kind of bomb.
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brianh111
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wheeling, WV
Posts: 17
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FWIW, (and I think this has been brought up on FTR before), if you remember the highlights of the '03 WSOP - Varkonyi had his coach that he was training with (sorry I don't remember that guy's name). Supposedly the "coach" was the mastermind behind the MIT team that the book was based on.
Anyone catch the movie a year or so ago, based on one of the MIT teams (different from the one profiled in the book, but somewhat interesting nonetheless). Think it was on the History/Travel/Discovery Channel.
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I'd rather stay in the Shana Hiatt than the Paris Hilton
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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You need vast sums of money to wager to make a lot of money and withstand the swings that are also inherent in BJ as in poker. The "players" only got a salary and lived in the fast lane at the casino on weekends when they were working.
I also recall that in the History Channel Documentary on the original MIT team, they had huge success at the start, but the suffered huge losses after awhile and just about broke even around the time the casino's caught up with them and cut them off.
The MIT team also had special techniques to get around multiple decks. They were VERY smart and had their stuff together and could not bust the casino. Like everyone else they got greedy.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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mcclintok
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 46
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I saw the Discovery Channel documentary as well and found it interesting but over dramatized. I remember reading where the team fell victim to variance and suffered fairly large losses.
I moved to Vegas for 6 months in the early 1980s and counted cards with some success but a very limited bankroll. My stakes were so low that there were no counter measures/banning taken but I know there was some definite interest by pit bosses in my play.
No idea what today's Blackjack environment is like, but the poker opportunities more than compensate.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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