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  1. #601
    *However, 400,000 years isn't really that long on an evolutionary scale and if the young and virile moths aren't killing themselves, then it wont be selectively bred out of the species. Natural selection is only concerned with survival of the most fit reproducers. Any disease or affliction that affects a being after it has produced offspring is that being's own problem.
    Yeah I think this is what I'd argue, I mean it's not like it's a high percentage that spiral into fire. I would imagine those at the most risk are those that have the "moon" positioned at a small angle relative to flight, ie directly in front of them. This would reduce their adjustments, compared to a moth who views the "moon" at 90 degrees.

    I did have a quick look at the wiki page for moths, and there's only a couple of species that have evolved methods of defence against bats. There's one which instinctively drops a few inches when it detects sonar, and there's another that emits clicks to throw the bats off the scent. They're taking their time to evolve against predators, so it doesn't surprise me that fire isn't an evolutionary concern for them either. Maybe the ones who survive are the smarter ones who realise it's not the moon when they see how fast the angle is changing. Maybe in time the moths will stop dive bombing fire. I hope not, it amuses me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I guess it's UV vision plus an ability to ballpark the sun's position based on an internal clock.
    This said nothing about the statement that the hive is transparent to UV light.

    Do you have a source on that? My preliminary search turned up that bees like dark hives, and will cover over any lights with propolis to get rid of the light.
  3. #603
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    Yeah, I misremembered. It's UV light outside, internal clock inside.
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  4. #604
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    WoooHooo!

    NASA's New Horizons Probe reports all systems nominal after the flyby on Pluto!

    WoooHoooo!

  5. #605
    If electricity always follows the path of least resistance, why doesn't lightning only strike France?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #606
    Not a physics question but I'll ask here. Is there any real world application to mathematical proofs?
  7. #607
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    Every proof just shows a shortcut to get an answer more quickly. The need for the shortcut in a real world situation is often a motivation to prove something. Equally, though, many proofs are purely motivated by mathematical curiosity.

    The proof is to show that the shortcut follows from the axioms without breaking a logical progression.

    E.g. If you have a data set generated by a random variable and you want to describe it... you ultimately want to know that the way you think you're describing it is actually how you're describing it.

    Suppose you want to know the EV of the next value to be collected to the data. Should you use the mean? The median? The mode?

    We use a formal language to say, we want the unbiased estimator of the data set's EV. This is a complicated proof, but ultimately it shows that the mean is the one we want. So, knowing that, we don't need to go through the whole derivation of what formula gives us the EV, we can just use the mean and know that we're justified.

    The same is true for the variance and standard deviation, and plenty of other stats. So we now have a small amount of data (these stats) which allow us to describe large amounts of data (the actual random variable). These are the shortcuts, and we know that we are justified to use them because we proved it.

    Proving it once is enough. Just make sure that the axioms of your proof are in line with the axioms of your usage. If your usage doesn't match the assumptions of your proof, then you've got a bad model.
  8. #608
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    Proofs from probability and statistics. They certainly have an application in games of chance where probabilities can be discretely known, if you consider those part of the real world. It's interesting to think about what happens between a structured double-blind study of some drugs effectiveness over to that drug's impact on the wider population, do the probabilities transfer 1:1, because if they do, then that'd be the winner right there.
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  9. #609
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    That's if you consider the result of the proof having a real world application counting as the proof having a real world application.
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  10. #610
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    But mostly, no, proofs are just really cool little logical works of art. Check out Journey through Genius by William Dunham. He rolls through some of history's greatest.
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  11. #611
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    The proof does not rely on any assumption about the source or human usage of the random variable.

    Statistics plays a huge role in physics and chemistry. I'm positive that statistics plays a huge role in medicine, which is biology, which is chemistry.


    Consider the plethora of odd results predicted by the Schroedinger Equation. In a strikingly huge number of experiments, a proof was obtained from the Schroedinger Equation to a predicted value, which was then observed.

    It's this kind of mathematical proof leading to demonstrable observations which propels physics forward at this point (about the past 100 years).

    GPS, rockets to space, all of it is based on proofs.

    (ASIDE: statistical analysis is a part of everything in physics / engineering.)
  12. #612
    Thanks for the responses. This is pretty over my head though, so I'm not sure I understand much.

    I asked because of a situation in my calculus class. An exam problem was to test for convergence of the sum from n=whatever to infinity of 1/(n(n^(1/2)+10)). I looked at this and said it compares to 1/n^(3/2). Since p>1, it converges. But my professor marked me wrong because it's not technically correct unless I do the limit comparison test. I'm left wondering why I can't just say it converges since doesn't any function have to converge when the fastest growing term is an exponent and its ratio in the denominator compared to numerator is >1?

    I mean, even though technically a p-series is the form 1/n^p, I can't find any more complex functions where p is the fastest growing value and is >1 yet the series doesn't converge. This is technically not p-series: "sum of n=1 to infinity of 1/(n^(100/99)-1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000n )", but it still converges on p-series logic. Is there some point where I add enough zeroes to the n^1 term that it starts mattering?

    I tried asking my professor but he wasn't understanding my question and almost seemed to be getting mad that I didn't understand why I can't just find the simplest way to get the right answer instead of doing what mathematicians do and rigorously prove it for the sake of rigorous proof, or whatever.
  13. #613
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    edit BLEH! I have no clue.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-23-2015 at 06:57 PM.
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  14. #614
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    I first time I ever really failed at anything was when I took a proof course in mathematics.

    Calc? Easy. Vector Calc? Easy.

    Prove one set of numbers is included within another set of numbers.

    me: it just is, wtf?

    *head esplode*

    So, lawschool.
  15. #615
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    lol at the error I made on my first go through it. Math rusts, man.
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  16. #616
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    Alright, I googled what convergence is versus what I remember it to be and I was wrong. Math is useless!
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  17. #617
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    I guess what the professor was getting at is how do you know the p-series converges by virtue of p>1? I just sat down and ran through my thinking and saw that eventually the terms add nothing to the end, but I didn't prove anything. In order to mathematically KNOW that it converges, is it enough to know that all p-series with p>1 converge or do you have to go further and be able to demonstrate for any given p-series p>1, it does converge?
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  18. #618
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Also, I wouldn't be surprised if mathematical proofs have application in computer science.
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  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    I first time I ever really failed at anything was when I took a proof course in mathematics.

    Calc? Easy. Vector Calc? Easy.

    Prove one set of numbers is included within another set of numbers.

    me: it just is, wtf?

    *head esplode*

    So, lawschool.
    the skeptic in me says the difficulty is due to schizophrenic and arbitrary teaching of mathematics. i mean, it certainly appears to me that the profession just cherry picks when students should learn concepts, when should learn process, when should apply memorization, and when should apply analytics. it makes no real sense.

    why the fuck do i need to know how to integrate by hand when most integrals can't be done by hand? that's like learning how to read braille when you're not blind. especially when doing them by hand is wrought with peril and unproductive compared to just punching the numbers into a calculator or wolfram alpha.

    i feel like this is so much wasted time where i could actually be learning why and when to apply concepts to solve real problems. i bet people would adore math if it was taught like that. ofc mathematicians would claim the world is coming to an end since we'd no longer be teaching everybody the joys of the numerical mindspace.

    i blame human idealism. team utility 4lyfe.
  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    why the fuck do i need to know how to integrate by hand when most integrals can't be done by hand?
    Stuff like this is lifting brain weights.

    "Those who take the helm must first serve at the oar."

    Gotta learn all the dirty corners of integrals if you ever want to confidently use them (or some hybrid of them) one day, too.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-23-2015 at 07:37 PM.
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  21. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Stuff like this is lifting brain weights.
    i get that, and it's the main reason given any time i see the topic discussed. my response is "so is learning what you need to know".

    i mean, i am BAD at word problems. why? probably because im treated like a human calculator instead of an analyst, and im getting very little experience with word problems. yet what people need to be truly effective is to be good at word problems, not calculations.
  22. #622
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    Like I added to my post above. You've got to learn to pull the oar before you can command the ship. You need to learn all the dirty little corners of stuff like integrals so you can wield them effectively in the future. Math builds on itself, so every new thing you learn, you need to work to make a solid foundation for the next new thing you'll learn.
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  23. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I guess what the professor was getting at is how do you know the p-series converges by virtue of p>1? I just sat down and ran through my thinking and saw that eventually the terms add nothing to the end, but I didn't prove anything. In order to mathematically KNOW that it converges, is it enough to know that all p-series with p>1 converge or do you have to go further and be able to demonstrate for any given p-series p>1, it does converge?
    the p-series rule is that it converges when p>1. my issue is when given a function that is not technically p-series (becuase it's not strictly in the form 1/n^p), but for all intents and purposes it behaves like a p-series, why can't i just say "it converges because of p-series rules"? this must mean that the logic breaks down somewhere, but i cant find where that would be. and if it doesn't, im wondering what the purpose of solving a problem by proving it is important when you could just solve the problem. is a proof actually creating something, or is it so we can say "ah we know this thing is true for all possible circumstances instead of just knowing it's true for all circumstances we've thought of"?

    my professor is the type to say that "applied mathematics" is an oxymoron. makes my head explode. if something isn't applied it has no discernible value and therefore is not a relevant or assessable thing. if im wrong about this, please disabuse me of it.
  24. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Like I added to my post above. You've got to learn to pull the oar before you can command the ship. You need to learn all the dirty little corners of stuff like integrals so you can wield them effectively in the future. Math builds on itself, so every new thing you learn, you need to work to make a solid foundation for the next new thing you'll learn.
    i agree with the sentiment, but i think it can easily be misused. for example, if we were to use the logic for using computers. there's a whole lot about electromagnetism that tons of different fields involving computers don't need to understand in order to specialize

    it just seems irrelevant to learn how to integrate when your job is to know when/what to integrate when knowing how is not relevant to knowing when/what.

    the sentiment is true though. you have to start from the bottom and learn the system. i just take contention with what is relevant to learn.
  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Thanks for the responses. This is pretty over my head though, so I'm not sure I understand much.

    I asked because of a situation in my calculus class. An exam problem was to test for convergence of the sum from n=whatever to infinity of 1/(n(n^(1/2)+10)). I looked at this and said it compares to 1/n^(3/2). Since p>1, it converges. But my professor marked me wrong because it's not technically correct unless I do the limit comparison test. I'm left wondering why I can't just say it converges since doesn't any function have to converge when the fastest growing term is an exponent and its ratio in the denominator compared to numerator is >1?
    My best guess as to why he said that is because a college test is a simplified example designed to be completed (and graded) in a short amount of time. In the real world, the examples wont be so simple and straight forward and knowing how to figure out whether your function converges is an important skill. In physics and engineering, it is almost always that the particular skill has been requested by the industry to be included in the course material.

    I was wrong every time I thought something was taught to me in vain. I thought Taylor series were just a crude approximation that I would never need. How wrong I was. [deleted for brevity] It's all about getting over the hubris of not seeing the applications the first minute you are exposed to a new idea. At least... it was for me.

    At any rate, my real world advice is to accept that this guy is going to give you your grade. He's not grading you on what you think makes sense to learn. This can be a burden or a privilege, depending on your point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I mean, even though technically a p-series is the form 1/n^p, I can't find any more complex functions where p is the fastest growing value and is >1 yet the series doesn't converge. This is technically not p-series: "sum of n=1 to infinity of 1/(n^(100/99)-1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000n )", but it still converges on p-series logic.
    I don't want to presume to know your professor's specific gripe.

    If you present that your conclusion is based on logic which you already understand, then it should be no matter for you to show your work via mathematical symbols.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Is there some point where I add enough zeroes to the n^1 term that it starts mattering?
    So long as you're proving convergence over a domain that goes to infinity, then no.
    In the case of a polynomial, the term with the largest polynomial degree dominates at both + and - infinity.

    There are other rules, both more general and more specific, for various classes of functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I tried asking my professor but he wasn't understanding my question and almost seemed to be getting mad that I didn't understand why I can't just find the simplest way to get the right answer instead of doing what mathematicians do and rigorously prove it for the sake of rigorous proof, or whatever.
    First of all, I've been there, man. I feel your frustration.

    There is often a benefit to a rigorous proof in that it can be generalized to a class of results. Explicitly state your assumptions at the top of the proof and notice how broadly it applies. You may find that you've been shown a very powerful tool that is broad in its applications.

    Or your prof is a knucklehead and you gain nothing by frustrating him and yourself.

    ***
    FWIW, convergence is a requirement for all solutions to the Schroedinger Equation.
  26. #626
    Thanks.
  27. #627
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    lol at the error I made on my first go through it. Math rusts, man.
    I think this statement is vitally important.

    A huge part of memory is repetition.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Also, I wouldn't be surprised if mathematical proofs have application in computer science.
    I can think of millions of examples off the top of my head. I don't even have to be creative.
    Ohm's Law, Kirchhoff's Laws, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    why the fuck do i need to know how to integrate by hand when most integrals can't be done by hand? that's like learning how to read braille when you're not blind. especially when doing them by hand is wrought with peril and unproductive compared to just punching the numbers into a calculator or wolfram alpha.
    Preaching to the choir, here. Except for that part about Braille.
    IDK where you came up with that. It's too loose an analogy for my taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Stuff like this is lifting brain weights.
    Yeah. I totally agree with this, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    i mean, i am BAD at word problems. why? probably because im treated like a human calculator instead of an analyst, and im getting very little experience with word problems. yet what people need to be truly effective is to be good at word problems, not calculations.
    I felt the same way. My co-students freaking hated me for asking for word problems on the tests. I think it's the difference between a student's mindset and a working professional's mindset. The student wants the grade, but the professional wants the education.
  28. #628
    My point about braille was as follows:

    If we assume that integration by hand is a needed skill and most functions we come across can't be integrated by hand, the knowledge of integrating by hand has the same type of application that learning to read braille when not blind does. Sure we could use braille to read, but it's better not to and sometimes it won't even work. Likewise, we could integrate by hand, but it's better not to and sometimes it won't work.

    One reason I like economics so much is the lessons it teaches that apply to just about everything. Like opportunity cost. Even though learning integration by hand is flexing a brain muscle, brain resources and time resources are finite and I think integrating by hand is an opportunity cost when we could be doing more productive things instead. It's like long division of ten figures. We gain no real direct value from doing it. A calculator is easier, more accurate, faster, and leaves more resources for other things.

    It's funny, I only know how to do long division because when I went back to college after forever away from math, I had to relearn it because my intermediate algebra course didn't allow calculators. Yet since calculators have been allowed for me, I haven't used it once and I will never use it and a decade from now I will probably forget how to do it. It's like something I heard the other day: "if you're using a calculator to do 2+2, you're doing math right." This is because the comparative advantage (heart economics) humans have is analytics and we shouldn't waste our time on rote computation.
  29. #629
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    You're like me in the application department. Learning math in the abstract sense seems so futile to me. Stuff just doesn't stick in my memory without a concrete application to pin it down. Frankly, it's a learning disability, if anything.

    I learned most of the math I need after the fact when I got to a physics class where the prof. was like, so you all know XXXX and YYYY, right? Too bad, because I wont be going over those concepts, and you will need them for the tests.

    Then, I was digging through old textbooks and notes to create ad-hoc cheat sheets to put into my current class notes. It was workable, but I wish I had better focus on the abstract stuff.

    ***
    Create a cheat sheet for every class. Keep a folder of these. It is invaluable to have a little book of useful sentences and formulae on hand. I pulled mine out recently and was amazed at how much information I could recall from little tidbits of material.

    How much more math are you taking after this calculus class?
  30. #630
    majoring in financial mathematics, so multivariable calc and linear algebra. some statistics and probability and econometrics too. have to get really good at that for actuary exams. fortunately i won't get into the harder maths like proofs and abstract algebra. maybe differential equations but probably not.
  31. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    majoring in financial mathematics, so multivariable calc and linear algebra. some statistics and probability and econometrics too. have to get really good at that for actuary exams. fortunately i won't get into the harder maths like proofs and abstract algebra. maybe differential equations but probably not.
    I figured you be at least taking multivariable calc.

    I'm sorry to tell you, but basically, there is nothing in the class you're taking that wont come up in a more complex form in multi var calc. Sorry if the work is tedious. Multi var is more of the same, but in multiple dimensions. If you really understand the calc I stuff, it's not that bad.

    Linear algebra is actually the most powerful set of tools you'll likely come across. Frankly, I wished it was earlier in the course load, but I see now why it's so late. By the time you get to linear algebra, you'll be saying, "Wait a minute! There's a whole class of shortcuts to solving systems of equations and you've had me trudge through them by hand for 2 years?!"

    Lol. Yep. You'll also learn a ton about working with vectors and vector spaces. You'll need to be comfortable with integrals and derivatives for parts of the course, too. That's why they put it off.


    You can always bring me questions about any of your stuff. I promise to do the needed research to get you a solid answer if I can.
  32. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    linear algebra. some statistics and probability ...fortunately i won't get into the harder maths like proofs
    Should we tell him?
  33. #633
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    Good luck with the actuary track btw. My best bud went that route. He got a math degree, took some extra courses like 500-level statistics, took 2/9(?) exams for it, then was offered a cool job.

    Hes doing great right now. Hope you do too.
  34. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Should we tell him?
    tell me what?
  35. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I figured you be at least taking multivariable calc.

    I'm sorry to tell you, but basically, there is nothing in the class you're taking that wont come up in a more complex form in multi var calc. Sorry if the work is tedious. Multi var is more of the same, but in multiple dimensions. If you really understand the calc I stuff, it's not that bad.
    honestly the tedious doesnt bug me so much. it does philosophically, like if im opining about how i think things should be in a perfect world, but when it comes to doing the work, i like following steps. memorization is easy. you just gotta know what to memorize. also my instructor for the previous two calc quarters was epicly hard, so i kinda got used to it. third quarter calc is like taking a nap in comparison given how much easier the instructor is.

    what gets me is a lack of clarity. this stuff was really hard at first, but i think ive gotten to the point where it's not hard unless the explanations leave some to be desired. that and physics. that stuff kicks my ass but i won't be doing much of it.

    You can always bring me questions about any of your stuff. I promise to do the needed research to get you a solid answer if I can.
    thanks.
  36. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Good luck with the actuary track btw. My best bud went that route. He got a math degree, took some extra courses like 500-level statistics, took 2/9(?) exams for it, then was offered a cool job.

    Hes doing great right now. Hope you do too.
    thanks. we'll see. it may be right up my alley, but the exams are supposed to be the hardest on the planet. i think i can do it though. i kinda dont have motivation to put effort into things that arent hard.
  37. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    tell me what?
    Well, Linear algerbra, Probability, and Statistics are all proof based. I took probability and linear algerbra, and both involved a never ending boatload of proofs.

    I guess they could be taught in a non-proof oriented way, but that was my experience
  38. #638
    i have no clue. i meant it as a distinction with a class specifically about proofs, which is one i was going to have to take if i stuck to a straight math degree, but not now.

    i think it probably depends on how the classes are taught. one of my instructors, granted this was back in the 70s or something, said that her calculus courses were almost entirely about proofs. whereas the stuff we're learning only involves proofs almost as an afterthought.
  39. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Should we tell him?


    You got me there.

    @wuf: He's right, ya know. Especially the prob/stats. Linear algebra, the proofs will all be in the notes. In general, they couldn't test you on much in a 1-hour period if they asked you for more than the simplest proofs. That shouldn't be too scary. It's the middle steps that are big and confusing. The starting and ending points look simple enough. Deceptively simple, even.

    Oh man... I'm sitting here reminiscing about linear algebra. That's where I first learned Fourier transforms... Green's Theorem... divergence and curl... determinants and solving huge equations with awesome shortcuts...

    I'm a nerd.
  40. #640
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    What do you think about the new dark matter theory saying it can interact with itself?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...red-1930s.html
  41. #641
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    It's looking good on paper, so far. It's mostly untested, and the field is still in the early-discovery stages. It looks like the idea has found some international support, including support from Cal Tech. However, I didn't read the words "peer reviewed" in anything I found.

    Basically, what I understand is this:
    There is a model which describes some of what is known about dark matter, and which speculates a new mechanism with measurable implications. It proposes that dark matter is composed of particles similar to pions (pions are a kind of meson, or 2 quark structure). Except that these are not made of the 6 quarks we know and love from the Standard Model of Particle Physics. They are something new - dark quarks (or something... I made that name up).

    There is speculation that some currently operating experimental facilities (such as the LHC at CERN) are already set up to perform the experiments to look for these pion-like particles. If they can show a mass-energy discrepency in the experiments, then they can speculate that some of the mass is escaping via these dark matter pions. It's going to be a tricky thing to isolate, but that's what they do at CERN.

    ***
    The pentaquark thingies are news, too. The LHCb at CERN wasn't looking for them, but found them, and with a bit of a sour taste in their mouths, they reported their accidental findings. It's sour because a different group published a similar result a few years back and it was a false positive. So there's a lot of skepticism in the physics community about the existence of 5 quark structures.

    If they are real, then it will be lead to advances in our model of the nuclear strong force. Are the 5 quarks bound as a single, albeit highly unstable, particle? Are they more like a molecule with a Baryon (3 quark particle) weakly bound to a Meson (2 quark particle)? Either answer will help us gather more data about how nucleons interact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I can think of millions of examples off the top of my head. I don't even have to be creative.
    Ohm's Law, Kirchhoff's Laws, etc.
    These aren't proofs to me. How can a linear relationship like V=IR be a proof? I was thinking more of Algorithms and how you can prove the sort of 'time' they execute on. O(n) or O(ln(n)) time kinda of stuff. I haven't really studied it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    These aren't proofs to me. How can a linear relationship like V=IR be a proof? I was thinking more of Algorithms and how you can prove the sort of 'time' they execute on. O(n) or O(ln(n)) time kinda of stuff. I haven't really studied it.
    Did you just use 'big-O' notation up in here?



    The end result of the proof is not the proof, no. The proof starts with axioms and applies logical operations to demonstrate the result is consistent with the axioms.

    Here's a bit of a derivation based on classical mechanics which still shows the temperature dependence of resistivity.
    This is short, but heavy in math symbols. I like it because it should have occurred to me sooner that the mean free path of conducting electrons would be parabolic trajectories between bounces. Of course, it's more accurately described by waves and QM, but that classical picture is cool.

    The relationship V = IR holds in a certain domain, but it is a generalization (a linearization) of a more complicated relationship. It only even applies to "good conductors." In general, the resistivity of a material is a function of its temperature, atomic components and crystal lattice structure.

    ***
    The outermost electrons in an atom are shielded from the charge of the nucleus by the inner electrons. For conductors, the outermost electrons are weakly bound. This means that they may flow from one atom to another with a small amount of energy. For what we call conductors, it can be shown that the average thermal motions of the particles is above this energy threshold. This means that there is enough thermal energy to cause the electrons to randomly hop around their neighbor atoms' outer shells.

    A look at the electric fields shows that the periodic nature of the metallic crystalline bonds gives rise to an interesting structure of allowed energies. This observed periodic potential becomes the axiom we add to QM to postulate an explanation for resistivity.

    A free particle can have any energy, but a bound particle can only have specific energies. We call those specific energies "allowed" energies. The electrons in a material are bound, and therefore have specific energies available to them, while other energies are prohibited. The periodic potential gives rise to a banding of allowed energies. There will be many allowed energies with very close values, interspersed with wide gaps where there are no allowed energies. The nature of this banding determines the resistivity of the material.

    If there is an allowed band near the thermal energy, then the electrons are allowed to flow freely. This is called a conductor.
    If the thermal energy is near a "forbidden" band, then the electrons do not flow freely. This is called a dielectric (insulator).
    For Semi-conductors, the material has a conducting band just above the thermal energy. A small electric field is enough to add the needed energy to turn the material from a dielectric into a conductor.


    It is by this model, based on the axioms of QM, that we can prove that resistivity and Ohm's Law are implicated by the Standard Model.
  46. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Did you just use 'big-O' notation up in here?
    Yeah, man! I totally read the first 12 pages of a book on Algorithms.
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    I dunno how to use emoticons and not feel like a d-bag. But seriously, I only vaguely understand what is meant by big-O stuff. Steps to execute and ways to figure out how-ish many an algorithm'll take before I put the book down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I dunno how to use emoticons and not feel like a d-bag.
    You care about feeling like a d-bag?
    Interesting.

    Your above usage of emoticons was fine, btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    But seriously, I only vaguely understand what is meant by big-O stuff. Steps to execute and ways to figure out how-ish many an algorithm'll take before I put the book down.
    BWAAAAHAHAHAhahahahaha!

    I think you get it, actually.
  49. #649
    What the fuck are you people talking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  50. #650
    One of my earliest memories is sitting in front of the television watching the news, not understanding a single word the man was saying. That's how I feel reading through that discussion about maths proofs.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  51. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    What the fuck are you people talking about?
    Big-O notation is fundamentally important to computer programming.

    A common request for a computer might be to sort a list of numbers in ascending order.
    There are many ways it could do this. Each way will take a different number of processes to complete.
    The number of processes is a function of the size of the data set, N, and the algorithm.

    This is where we want to compare algorithms and determine which is fastest. We run into a problem, though.
    All of the methods are also heavily sensitive to the initial sorting of the list.
    If only 1 number is out of place out of the list, then it will (in general) take less time to sort than if the numbers in the list are randomized.
    Some methods will be faster at sorting certain arrangements within the list, but slower at others.

    We want to pick the best (fastest) algorithm, on average.
    So we want to talk about the EV of the runtime of the algorithm. We do this by calculating the EV of the number of process steps the algorithm needs to sort any list of size N.

    We class the algorithms using Big-O notation.
    If an algorithm is expected to take N steps for each element in the list of size N, then we say the algorithm has Big-O of n-squared
    O( N^2 )
    If there was another algorithm is expected to take log(N) steps for each element in the list, then we say it has
    O( N*log(N) )
    Big-O of N-log-N. This is much faster, and hard to beat for most common tasks, like sorting.

    E.g.
    If N = 10
    The O( N^2 ) algorithm is expected to take ( 10^2 = ) 100 process steps to complete.
    The O( N*log(N) ) algorithm is expected to take ( 10*(1) = ) 10 process steps to complete.

    If N = 100
    The O( N^2 ) algorithm is expected to take ( 100^2 = ) 10,000 process steps to complete.
    The O( N*log(N) ) algorithm is expected to take ( 100*(2) = ) 200 process steps to complete.

    ***
    So Big-O notation is a way of broadly describing the speed of a computational algorithm by finding the EV of the number of steps the program will take to run to completion.

    This system of notation also helps to optimize the architecture and design of printed circuits. An algorithm can be hard coded, E.g. into the adder within an ALU. Now the algorithm is permanent on that chip, and designing it to be as fast as economically possible is ideal.
  52. #652
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    I've watched tons of shit on this and I've finally found a video that comes close to explaining it in language that speaks to me. I don't know if I'm just a complete fucking idiot or why it was so difficult to explain something this simply. Still a lot of stuff I don't get but I feel like I've broken through.
  53. #653
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    Unfortunately, he is grossly mistaken about what, exactly, he's talking about for the first 5 minutes.

    What he's describing is called the observer effect, and is emphatically not the uncertainty referred to in the HUP.

    The uncertainty introduced by the observer effect is above and in addition to the particle's intrinsic uncertainties.

    ***
    What he's describing in the latter portion of the video, is due to the HUP. The geometry he describes is treating the photon like a wave, which is experimentally valid, and what he didn't describe is that it's each photon's self-interference which causes the diffraction pattern.
  54. #654
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    Figures.
  55. #655
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    OK, deleted a wall of text that I could not keep from getting ridiculously technical for this forum.


    Accept my stipulation that all particles obey the Schroedinger Equation.
    Accept that solutions to the Schroedinger Equation are functions, and that those functions are identical to wave-functions.

    Everything that applies to waves applies to the solutions of the Schroedinger Equation. And those solutions describe every predictable property that every particle has.

    Trust me on this.


    OK. Let's just talk about waves.

    You are standing near a pier, on a beach. You take a photo of the waves along the side of the pier. You know the pier is 100 feet long. In the photo, you see the waves rolling to the shore frozen in still frame.

    Using cleverness, you decide to figure out the wavelength of the wave. Knowing the pier is 100 feet long, you count the number of peaks along the pier. You count 10 peaks. (I'm just throwing out arbitrary numbers. I live thousands of miles from an ocean.)

    So you estimate the wave to have a wavelength of 100 ft / 10 = 10 feet.
    If you're being rigorous about your observation, you may say the peaks are hard to measure precisely, and while there are 10 peaks near the pier, there may be 9.5 to 10.5 peaks, for really. Call it 10.0 +/- 0.5. The +/- 5 is the measurement uncertainty, which is another layer of uncertainty on top of the observer effect and the HUP.

    Now. That's a pretty good measure of the wavelength. We can directly relate that wavelength to the frequency if we know the wave's speed. We can directly relate the frequency to the energy with a bit more data. So ultimately, by measuring the wavelength, we're measuring the Energy. All of this is kinetic energy, so we're really measuring the momentum of the wave.

    So we have a fairly well defined momentum.

    Now.

    What is that wave's position? Tricky, right?

    I mean.. we used information from all along that 100 foot pier to establish the momentum. So the location is, at best, somewhere along that 100 foot pier.


    Now suppose you see a single pulse of a wave going down a string. What is the position of the pulse?
    Well, that's pretty well defined. Not great, but much better than the many-peaked wave by the pier.

    Well... what's the wavelength of the pulse?
    Uhh... There's only one peak... how am I supposed to measure the wavelength, right?

    Right.


    And while there is uncertainty in our measurement, it is wholly separate and above the already-present uncertainty in these properties of the wave.
  56. #656
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    A bit more:

    The difference is that in the many-peaked example by the pier, we are dealing with an assumedly infinitely long wave. Like a sine wave or a cosine wave. These are periodic, ever-repeating, infinitely long. They have perfectly well defined frequency / wavelength... but they have no central location on an infinite number line. They are so symmetrical that they defy a locality of position.

    With infinite precision of the wavelength, we have lost all precision of the "central" location of the wave.


    With a wave pulse, we can demonstrate mathematically that this is, in fact, a superposition of many sine and cosine waves. In order to have a finite number of peaks, it takes an infinite number of individual sine and/or cosine waves which compose it.


    This one's a bit tricky to visualize, but I know you play guitar. Tuning your strings, you listen for beats. This is because you hear 2 notes at the same time, and the physics says that adding two waves is equivalent to multiplying to other waves.

    So the waves you pluck have wavelengths A and B. You generally tune to unison, so these are nearly identical pitches.
    Ignore the sloppy math here, but

    sin(A) + sin(B) = 2*sin( (A + B)/2 )*cos( (A - B)/2 )

    So the first term is the average of A and B. If you pluck the first string, and the second string (voicing them in unison), you hear the average of the pitches... with beats. The second term is the beats. It is 1/2 the difference of A and B. As you tune A and B to unison, the term inside the cosine goes to 0, and cos(0) = 1. So when you no longer hear the beats, you know that A = B.
    I.e. they are in tune. The wave in the sin term reduces to sin(A) which is equal to sin(B), and the cos term multiplies this by 1.
    The 2 out front means that the wave has 2 times the intensity, which we hear as ( sqrt(2) = ) 41% louder.


    I say all of this to convince you that the math justifies treating a single wave (the multiplied version) as an additive combination of other waves (the + version). I hope to have given you a personal experience that I have explained with math, which also jives with you intuitively.


    In the guitar tuning, we did not make a wave pulse, but a standing wave. An audible wave pulse sounds like a drum with no ring to it, a sudden rapport with no tone, a snap, bang, pop, or thud.
    The more atonal, the fewer wave pulses.
    The more tonal, the more pulses.
    (Knocked it out of the park, here... This is your ears and brain dealing with uncertainty in counting the number of peaks.)


    So I propose to you that we examine the wave pulse again. Recall, this represents a particle with a well-defined position.

    This time, we don't want to eliminate the beats. We want a clever series of beats that has exactly one peak and is everywhere else 0. However, we are left with no option than to use sines and cosines to try and do so. Nature is a cold, rude and uncompromising meanie-face sometimes.

    So... if I start with one wave. I can add another of twice the frequency, which cancels out every other peak. Then I can add another wave with a frequency that cancels out the next set. Then I do all of those. Then I realize that my solutions may have created their own peaks. Refine and do it again.

    Fortunately for us, the Fourier Transforms does all of this in one step.

    Oh crap... That means the position and momentum are a Fourier Transform pair. No matter how localized the results are in one of them, the results are equally de-localized in the other... Tiny variance in one = high variance in the other...

    delta_x >= {ongbonga}/delta_p

    delta_x*delta_p >= {ongbonga}


    It just so happens that with solutions to the Schroedinger Equation in this universe,

    {ongbonga} = hbar/2

    where hbar is h/(2*Pi). Where h = Energy/frequency of a photon.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 09-20-2015 at 12:38 AM.
  57. #657
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    Thanks for the replies, but its pretty over my head. I still don't really understand how a single photon can interfere with itself. I think the problem is this shit cannot be described using an intuitive model, and I need to accept that.
  58. #658
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    Frankly... I don't understand how a photon interferes with itself... the fact of the matter is that all particles interfere with themselves. Electrons experience self-interference, for sure. I can't imagine this property is absent in quarks, but I don't know that it's been tested.

    I guess my advice is to accept that you observe this property. If you are not convinced about it, look up or perform the experiments which demonstrate this property. Become convinced, or have a compelling argument for why you are not convinced. Whether or not it is intuitive is merely a statement about your history of exposure to the idea, I'd wager.
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    I shudder to think how many walls of text I've deleted on Hilbert Spaces. It keeps reminding me that I don't understand them as well as I should.

    It's kind of brutal to try to introduce QM without spending a few weeks or more on linear algebra,
    not to mention the few facts about differential equations that justify the "guess and check" method, ...
    becoming familiar with Dirac notation,
    understanding eigenvectors and eigenvalues...


    There's a reason I wasn't allowed to take a course on QM until my senior year of undergrad. I simply needed to have taken a handful of other courses to understand the lingo on D1.


    I keep trying to find a workaround to get to the meat of Renton's questions, but so far, I'm drawing a blank. I don't think there is a way to convincingly demonstrate the HUP without a full mathematical proof. If I couldn't do it with the prior two posts, then I'm at a loss right now.
  61. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Oh cool. I just noticed that this is a philosophy page. The links at the bottom of the page are relatively math-free, and still quite compelling reading on QM.

    There's some really cool stuff in there.

    Really?! Bell's work with the EPR paradox and non-local variables doesn't show that non-local variables are completely ruled out?
    I.e. either QM is complete OR there is "spooky action at a distance."
    :/
    Really?!

    That's kind of a keystone fact for me. It's shocking that the results of QM are so accurate and precise, given that we can't even prove that we understand the slightest bit of what we're doing. I mean: if we can't show the theory is even a complete description of reality, why does it give such amazing predictions of reality? Or why is it so difficult to prove that the theory is complete when it is so demonstrably close to the mark?

    This is really messing with my head.
  62. #662
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    The situation has seen many changes in the course of time, and the necessity of making a clear distinction between what is quantum and what is classical has given rise to many proposals for ‘easy solutions’ to the problem which are based on the possibility, for all practical purposes (FAPP), of locating the splitting between these two faces of reality at different levels.
    SMH

    Exploring the line between quantum and classical mechanics gives rise to FAPP arguments.

  63. #663
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    Black Holes, a general overview.

  64. #664


    Black holes are made of lego.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #665
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    At a glance, it appears that Phil Plait's version of a black hole supports my claim that you see an infinite amount of time elapse before your eyes as you fall in.
  66. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    At a glance, it appears that Phil Plait's version of a black hole supports my claim that you see an infinite amount of time elapse before your eyes as you fall in.
    Yep. I hoped you'd click the link.

    I guess I want to know how far you can push the "seeing all the time pass" and what happens if you don't fall in, but swing past?

    I.e. what is a reasonable upper limit for the relativistic gamma factor before it's implausible that atoms are capable of interacting with each other to make molecules... or whatever would make it implausible for any theoretical "observer" attempting to do this to be a "complex" object?
  67. #667
    Hopefully this isn't too open ended, but can you tell me some cool things about the multiverse? It was touched upon on Sam Harris' podcast (Podcast: Waking Up with Sam Harris, Episode: The Multiverse & You (& You & You & You...) and now I can't stop thinking about it. Sometimes I'm using my absolutely and atrociously malnourished knowledge of how things work on the grand scale to try and wrap my head around the concept, and sometimes I'm just conjuring up silly and novel ever-so-slightly-alternate realities. Your insights on either or both are much appreciated.
  68. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Hopefully this isn't too open ended, but can you tell me some cool things about the multiverse? It was touched upon on Sam Harris' podcast (Podcast: Waking Up with Sam Harris, Episode: The Multiverse & You (& You & You & You...) and now I can't stop thinking about it. Sometimes I'm using my absolutely and atrociously malnourished knowledge of how things work on the grand scale to try and wrap my head around the concept, and sometimes I'm just conjuring up silly and novel ever-so-slightly-alternate realities. Your insights on either or both are much appreciated.
    Can you provide a link to the podcast?

    ***
    I don't know what physics has to say about a multiverse. Here's a brief explanation on why that may always be the case:

    "Physics" is the current name of a field that Isaac Newton called "Natural Philosophy," or the philosophy of nature. It is the study of all physical (measurable) things. To wit, it deals with observable stuff and verifiable predictions about that stuff.

    A basic physics definition of our Universe is "all that can (or ever could) be observed." So talking about any other universe is strictly talking about non-observable stuff, and therefore not physics.

    Unless someone figures out an experiment to test for a multiverse, and that experiment is conclusive. Umm.. but then we've observed it, so is it really "another universe?" Or is it just another part of ours?

    I really don't know. It's all semantics at that point, anyway.

    ***
    Which is why I need to listen to the podcast and see what language they're using and how rooted in physics it is.
  69. #669
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    OK, I googled the podcast, here it is:

    The conversation starts out interesting, but rooted in speculation. Their description of the evolution of mind is hard to swallow. They keep stipulating that modern humans are somehow Darwinistically inclined to ponder the nature of reality, while "our ancestors" were somehow NOT so motivated.

    "If we use technology to explore physics in in areas that were inaccessible to our ancestors, then we should be skeptical of any intuitive results." -not a direct quote, but I hope I captured the essence of the statement
    I could probably write a page or two essay exploring the pros and cons of this sentiment.

    ***
    I love the conversation about math - what it is and why we bother.

    I'm loving this podcast so far.

    ***
    Around 40:00 they start on multiverse.
    The first description seems flawed in that it says that other universes exist outside of our own. Accepting the description that our universe is the sphere around us from which light has had time to reach:
    an observer a significant distance from us shares almost entirely the same sphere, but not exactly. The separation in spacetime means they have different observation boundaries. This means that every particle is ultimately in it's own universe, which just happens to overlap almost perfectly with all the nearby particles. Which is - I guess - still fine, but it is definitely NOT the case that other universes are "far away."

    The critique of my earlier definition is odd. There is no stipulation that if it can't be observed, then it doesn't exist. That is not a position that physics takes. Physics codifies the properties of observables. Physics is mute as to whether something which cannot be measured exists.

    I'm not saying that there is NOTHING outside of what we can observe. I'm saying that there is nothing INTELLIGENT to say about a thing which we cannot observe.

    "If you go a googolplex meters away..."
    ...
    Oh, they kinda debunked that one a minute later.

    ***
    Level 2 multiverse
    It's still hypothesis, and it's rooted inside the hand waving that "inflation is totes violent." It doesn't serve him well that he earlier said that inflation is hypothesis and not theory.

    It seems like it's all hand waving to justify the anthropic principle.

    That said - even with all the ambiguity - it strikes me as plausible.

    "In case you're still worried about living in a simulation, I'll just give you some advice. Live a really interesting life; do interesting things - so that whoever's running it doesn't get bored and shut you down."
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 10-02-2015 at 02:57 PM.
  70. #670
    I thought Harris' line about being afraid of being in a simulation in which the evasive abrahamic god who is infuriated by anyone who does not acknowledge his existence is reality.

    As for whether this is physics or not... is it not called theoretical physics or something? Am I just confused in thinking that the type of people I come across talking about this are some sort of physicist?

    Also, even if things outside of our observable universe cannot be observed, aren't multiverse theories predicated on observations in our observable universe? I guess what I'm trying to say is, can't we be observing them by way or some apparent fluke in our observable universe, such as gravity being weaker than would be expected (I have no clue if this is actually a good example...)?
  71. #671
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    Like I said earlier, it's kind of a semantics issue at some point.

    Yes, theoretical physics is still physics insofar as it's rooted in the current physical model, and pushing the boundaries of knowledge. It's just that there's a blurry line between talking about theoretical physics, which is more properly called hypothetical physics, and experimental physics.

    To the extent that a hypothesis produces a prediction that can be observed, then it is physics. To the extent that physicists work on problems which yield no measurable predictions... well... They are certainly pushing the boundaries of knowledge, and that is a part of the progress of the scientific method. However, to the extent that certain fields, like string theory, have not yielded any results despite decades of work on them, it's at least worth questioning if it should be called physics. It's all semantics, though.

    To the extent that another universe can be observed by it's subtle effects on our universe, then it's another blurry line. It's all a matter of what you consider the universe. Just because physics can't deal with non-observable properties, doesn't mean those properties are not worth investigating.

    The bottom line is that, no matter what you call it, if measurable predictions can be made about it, then it's physics. It's odd to suggest that we can use physics to describe another universe, but it's all language. It doesn't change the observation.
  72. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I thought Harris' line about being afraid of being in a simulation in which the evasive abrahamic god who is infuriated by anyone who does not acknowledge his existence is reality.

    As for whether this is physics or not... is it not called theoretical physics or something? Am I just confused in thinking that the type of people I come across talking about this are some sort of physicist?

    Also, even if things outside of our observable universe cannot be observed, aren't multiverse theories predicated on observations in our observable universe? I guess what I'm trying to say is, can't we be observing them by way or some apparent fluke in our observable universe, such as gravity being weaker than would be expected (I have no clue if this is actually a good example...)?
    There's a lot of 'sprawl' in multiverse theories. They jump off of a good foundation, but they're still a jump.
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    Was watching this video and I was wondering why the simplest solution for artificial gravity shouldn't be just having the spaceship's floor perpendicular to the direction of travel and accelerate at a constant rate of 1g for the first half of the journey, then orient the ship 180 degrees and decelerate at the same constant rate for the last half?
    Last edited by Renton; 10-10-2015 at 05:17 PM.
  74. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    Was watching this video and I was wondering why the simplest solution for artificial gravity shouldn't be just having the spaceship's floor perpendicular to the direction of travel and accelerate at a constant rate of 1g for the first half of the journey, then orient the ship 180 degrees and decelerate at the same constant rate for the last half?
    In short, acceleration is expensive. Coasting is free. Especially so when the friction is realistically negligible, as in an interplanetary mission.

    Mostly it comes down to fuel costs. As in, the cost in added mass of fuel means you need a bigger engine to create the same acceleration.

    F = ma -> a = F/m

    Force is mass times acceleration - or - acceleration is force divided by mass.

    That means the more mass you're moving with the same engine's force reduces the acceleration.

    Take into account that the mass of the craft you're accelerating is decreasing over time and you need a bit more robust mathematics, but the result is the same. Acceleration costs mass in the form of fuel. Carrying that fuel around costs still more mass.


    There are questions as to whether the long term detriment to human physiology in microgravity is worth the expense of a craft which does what you suggest. Only, it would do so periodically. Long periods of weightlessness, interspersed with relatively short periods of "artificial gravity."
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    Would the fuel mass be so prohibitive if it weren't solid rocket fuel, but fissile material or some other dense fuel? I mean you're already going to need to provide the thrust required to make the craft get to cruising velocity, as well as slow the craft upon arrival, it's merely a matter of whether that thrust happens all at once at the beginning and end (which seems deadly to humans tbh) or gradually throughout the journey. This is especially the case if we're talking interstellar travel.

    edit: I just realized how quick the rate of acceleration of 9.8m/s/s is. You would reach the speed of light in less than a year. If you wanted to travel at just 10% of c you would make it in like 35 days and only be like 0.25% of the way to Proxima Centauri. It seems like this method of artificial gravity would only work for very short distances.

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