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For all of you who voted for that idiot bush

  
 
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shysti
Old 03-16-2006, 05:37 PM     Post subject: For all of you who voted for that idiot bush #1 (permalink)  
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 This pisses me off to no end...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1732997
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Phantaroth
Old 03-16-2006, 05:53 PM #2 (permalink)  
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He didn't even sign it yet...
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NewJack33
Old 03-16-2006, 06:29 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Greedo017
Old 03-16-2006, 06:38 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
 
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andy-akb
Old 03-16-2006, 06:54 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
Yea, because the US debt has come and gone over the past 100 years, right? I dont care if you know what you are talking about and argue the benefit of deficit spending from an economics standpoint, but saying "democrats will always be pussies" as a post has no bearing at all. What does this have to do with anybody being a pussy? How is this sound policy, and "Sean Hannity told me so" isnt a good response.

To the OP: Id blame this on the idiots that voted in a republican "fiscally responsible" majority in the senate, although reckless spending is bipartisan.
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vqc
Old 03-16-2006, 07:02 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
How is this sound policy, and "Sean Hannity told me so" isnt a good response.
what about "Colmes told me so"?
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vqc
Old 03-16-2006, 07:04 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
but saying "democrats will always be pussies" as a post has no bearing at all.

To the OP: Id blame this on the idiots that voted in a republican "fiscally responsible" majority in the senate, although reckless spending is bipartisan.
democrats :: pussies
bush :: idjit

its only done so that it fits in with the OP.

I wonder how the budget wouldve been handled if world events happened exactly the same but clinton was at the helm instead of bush?
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shysti
Old 03-16-2006, 07:06 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
but saying "democrats will always be pussies" as a post has no bearing at all.

To the OP: Id blame this on the idiots that voted in a republican "fiscally responsible" majority in the senate, although reckless spending is bipartisan.
democrats :: pussies
bush :: idjit

its only done so that it fits in with the OP.

I wonder how the budget wouldve been handled if world events happened exactly the same but clinton was at the helm instead of bush?
the books would of been balanced out, not doubled that's for sure
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andy-akb
Old 03-16-2006, 07:07 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
How is this sound policy, and "Sean Hannity told me so" isnt a good response.
what about "Colmes told me so"?
In about the 2 minutes of speaking time he gets in a show I doubt he said all of that. I guess I personally see a difference between a response of "democrats are pussies budgets come and go" and an actual thought out post where I dont just spew random rhetoric, I dont know if Id even call that rhetoric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
but saying "democrats will always be pussies" as a post has no bearing at all.

To the OP: Id blame this on the idiots that voted in a republican "fiscally responsible" majority in the senate, although reckless spending is bipartisan.
democrats :: pussies
bush :: idjit

its only done so that it fits in with the OP.

I wonder how the budget wouldve been handled if world events happened exactly the same but clinton was at the helm instead of bush?
Seeing as Clinton was running a surplus, Id assume we would be in much much better shape. And would instituting a $1 Trillion+ tax cut, without decreasing spending be one of these world events?
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shysti
Old 03-16-2006, 07:08 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantaroth
He didn't even sign it yet...
Im sure he will some of that money is allocated for his war. The tyrant!
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vqc
Old 03-16-2006, 07:09 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shysti
Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
but saying "democrats will always be pussies" as a post has no bearing at all.

To the OP: Id blame this on the idiots that voted in a republican "fiscally responsible" majority in the senate, although reckless spending is bipartisan.
democrats :: pussies
bush :: idjit

its only done so that it fits in with the OP.

I wonder how the budget wouldve been handled if world events happened exactly the same but clinton was at the helm instead of bush?
the books would of been balanced out, not doubled that's for sure
How are you so positive that this would be true?
Is it just becuase you believe that clinton wouldnt have gone to war and therefore that would mitigate a large portion of hte debt?
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Demiparadigm
Old 03-16-2006, 07:12 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by shysti
Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
but saying "democrats will always be pussies" as a post has no bearing at all.

To the OP: Id blame this on the idiots that voted in a republican "fiscally responsible" majority in the senate, although reckless spending is bipartisan.
democrats :: pussies
bush :: idjit

its only done so that it fits in with the OP.

I wonder how the budget wouldve been handled if world events happened exactly the same but clinton was at the helm instead of bush?
the books would of been balanced out, not doubled that's for sure
How are you so positive that this would be true?
Is it just becuase you believe that clinton wouldnt have gone to war and therefore that would mitigate a large portion of hte debt?
and maybe the fact that we had a budget surplus under Clinton, that was quickly spent even before the events of Sept !!, once the new administration took the helm.
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shysti
Old 03-16-2006, 08:17 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by shysti
Quote:
Originally Posted by vqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
debt's will come and go but democrats will always be pussies
but saying "democrats will always be pussies" as a post has no bearing at all.

To the OP: Id blame this on the idiots that voted in a republican "fiscally responsible" majority in the senate, although reckless spending is bipartisan.
democrats :: pussies
bush :: idjit

its only done so that it fits in with the OP.

I wonder how the budget wouldve been handled if world events happened exactly the same but clinton was at the helm instead of bush?
the books would of been balanced out, not doubled that's for sure
How are you so positive that this would be true?
Is it just becuase you believe that clinton wouldnt have gone to war and therefore that would mitigate a large portion of hte debt?
and maybe the fact that we had a budget surplus under Clinton, that was quickly spent even before the events of Sept !!, once the new administration took the helm.
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EasyT
Old 03-16-2006, 08:40 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Last election truly was choosing between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.
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samsonite2100
Old 03-16-2006, 08:47 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
How are you so positive that this would be true?
Is it just becuase you believe that clinton wouldnt have gone to war and therefore that would mitigate a large portion of hte debt?
Any president, Democrat or Republican, would have at least invaded Afghanistan after 9/11. I don't, however, remember Clinton making a habit of giving zillion dollar tax cuts to the wealthiest .5 % of Americans, or an idiotic 600 dollar tax cut to everyone in order to "stimulate" the economy.

Clinton, of course, was not directly responsible for the incredibly fruitful economy he presided over, but if you are arguing that there has been no significant mismanagement of the economy by King Jesus Bush II, you are out of your mind.
 
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EasyT
Old 03-16-2006, 08:50 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 As far as the deficit goes, they could make up some ground by legalizing online gambling.

Rather than this billion dollar industry being exiled to shady little island countries, they could allow it in the US. We'd gain a higher level of security in the sites we play at, they'd gain revenue by taxing the casinos revenue, and they could also tax the winning players.

W-2g anyone? I'm not saying it's the best thing for us players, mind you.

I'm just saying that the bulk of money feeding this multi-billion dollar industry comes from American dollars, and that the government would rather wash their hands of it than accept it and get their piece of the industry.

A politician gets more traction submitting bills to make online gambling illegal than he does submitting the opposite.

EasyT
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samsonite2100
Old 03-16-2006, 08:55 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
As far as the deficit goes, they could make up some ground by legalizing online gambling.
Yes, but the US government has a proud tradition of taking the moral high ground and not making tax money off of gambling, I mean besides horse racing, and the lottery. Which are obviously totally different since betting on horses or numbers takes skill and poker is %100 luck.
 
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andy-akb
Old 03-16-2006, 09:07 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Any president, Democrat or Republican, would have at least invaded Afghanistan after 9/11. I don't, however, remember Clinton making a habit of giving zillion dollar tax cuts to the wealthiest .5 % of Americans, or an idiotic 600 dollar tax cut to everyone in order to "stimulate" the economy.
I agree with you that anybody would have invaded Afghanistan. Clinton would not have invaded Iraq though, which is what is costing us billions every day. We are on the same page there. However, tax cuts do stimulate the economy, BUT the Bush tax cuts are not the best way of doing it. If you want tax cuts [which I think are good because taxes are currently too high, mainly due to irresponisble spending], then you have to cut spending to offset the lose of revenue. By increasing deficit spending you are weakening the US dollar, that cannot be argued. The weaker the US dollar gets in comparison to the other global economies, the higher inflation gets. Inflation is bad, deficit spending [not short term, but long term like we are seeing now] is also bad because it clearly leads to this. Basically, I agree with most of your points, just saying that in an ideal world where tax cuts are offset by spending cuts, they do stimulate the economy both in the short and long term.

EasyT:
Yes, taxing the online gambling industry would help, but not an incredible amount. I would say the biggest industry the government could create, regulate, and tax would be ending the war on drugs and instituting a taxed regime similar to that of alcohol.
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samsonite2100
Old 03-16-2006, 09:17 PM #19 (permalink)  
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I'm not against tax cuts per se, just tax cuts that reward a tiny sliver of wealthy Americans for being wealthy.

Anyway, I think the short version of what you said is that if you want to have an expensive war, you need to pay for it somehow. Man, you are stuck in the 20th century. These days you can fight wars for free and w/out soldiers--no sacrifice needed!
 
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andy-akb
Old 03-16-2006, 09:27 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
I'm not against tax cuts per se, just tax cuts that reward a tiny sliver of wealthy Americans for being wealthy.

Anyway, I think the short version of what you said is that if you want to have an expensive war, you need to pay for it somehow. Man, you are stuck in the 20th century. These days you can fight wars for free and w/out soldiers--no sacrifice needed!
Haha, exactly.

But yea, ideally I would like to see a huge cut in taxes across the board and then an entire revamp of the tax code to get rid of all the loopholes that currently exist. Id also love to see the billions upon billions in pork spending get cut from the budget. Chances of these things happening are all veyr slim though with the current attitude in washington.
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shysti
Old 03-16-2006, 09:37 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 Well this is what God
Almighty is saying to President Bush.


Mr. President, this job can't be fun for you any more. There's no
more money to spend--you used up all of that. You can't start another
war because you used up the army. And now, darn the luck, the rest of
your term has become the Bush family nightmare: helping poor people.
Listen to your Mom. The cupboard's bare, the credit cards maxed out.
No one's speaking to you.

Mission accomplished.

Now it's time to do what you've always done best: lose interest and
walk away. Like you did with your military service and the oil
company and the baseball team. It's time. Time to move on and try the
next fantasy job. How about cowboy or space man? Now I know what
you're saying: there's so many other things that you as President
could involve yourself in. Please don't. I know, I know. There's a
lot left to do. There's a war with Venezuela. Eliminating the sales
tax on yachts. Turning the space program over to the church. And
Social Security to Fannie Mae. Giving embryos the vote.

But, Sir, none of that is going to happen now. Why? Because you
govern like Billy Joel drives. You've performed so poorly I'm
surprised that you haven't given yourself a medal. You're a
catastrophe that walks like a man. Herbert Hoover was a shitty
president, but even he never conceded an entire city to rising water
and snakes.

On your watch, we've lost almost all of our allies, the surplus, four
airliners, two trade centers, a piece of the Pentagon and the City of
New Orleans. Maybe you're just not lucky. I'm not saying you don't
love this country. I'm just wondering how much worse it could be if
you were on the other side.

So, yes, God does speak to you. What he is saying is: 'Take a hint
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euphoricism
Old 03-16-2006, 10:50 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Herbert Hoover was a shitty
president
Hoover happened to be a very good president who inherited a very bad country. In fact, the country loved Hoover.

Quote:
On your watch, we've lost almost all of our allies
What? No?

Quote:
the surplus
A terrorist attack and a few large national disasters will do that. The war is icing.

Quote:
Four ailiners
Now we're grasping at straws. Blaming Bush for this?

Quote:
Two trade centers
Blaming GW. Bush for this? Been down that road.

Quote:
A piece of the pentagon
Where ARE those straws?

Quote:
the City of New Olreans
A) Its still there. Lots of people in it too.
B) Are we now blaming weather patterns on Bush as well?




That was one of the largest pieces of crap I've ever read.
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spoonitnow
Old 03-16-2006, 10:57 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
It's the fourth such move increasing the debt limit by a total of $3 trillion since Bush took office five years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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andy-akb
Old 03-16-2006, 10:59 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
On your watch, we've lost almost all of our allies
What? No?
Yea, the world loves us, dont they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
the surplus
A terrorist attack and a few large national disasters will do that. The war is icing.
A several hundred billion dollar war is "icing on the cake?" This sounds like quite the cake. What about the several trillion $ tax cuts? Candles on the cake? The pork filled transportation bill, sprinkles? Seriously, yea the terrorist attacks hurt us economically, and so did the natural disasters, but to say that is the cause of the loss of the surplus is ridiculous. Lets completely forget the spending policies of this administration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
the City of New Olreans
A) Its still there. Lots of people in it too.
B) Are we now blaming weather patterns on Bush as well?
I dont think we can blame this entirely on Bush, it was a fairly of government on all levels. However, the head of FEMA was a crony of Bush who had no experience on the job. That didnt make the cleanup any easier. And the cutting of funds to rebuild the leveys also didnt help.



Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
That was one of the largest pieces of crap I've ever read.
Thanks for shining the light on all of this confusing polytiks stuff with your one liners.
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shysti
Old 03-16-2006, 11:46 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
On your watch, we've lost almost all of our allies
What? No?
Yea, the world loves us, dont they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
the surplus
A terrorist attack and a few large national disasters will do that. The war is icing.
A several hundred billion dollar war is "icing on the cake?" This sounds like quite the cake. What about the several trillion $ tax cuts? Candles on the cake? The pork filled transportation bill, sprinkles? Seriously, yea the terrorist attacks hurt us economically, and so did the natural disasters, but to say that is the cause of the loss of the surplus is ridiculous. Lets completely forget the spending policies of this administration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
the City of New Olreans
A) Its still there. Lots of people in it too.
B) Are we now blaming weather patterns on Bush as well?
I dont think we can blame this entirely on Bush, it was a fairly of government on all levels. However, the head of FEMA was a crony of Bush who had no experience on the job. That didnt make the cleanup any easier. And the cutting of funds to rebuild the leveys also didnt help.



Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
That was one of the largest pieces of crap I've ever read.
Thanks for shining the light on all of this confusing polytiks stuff with your one liners.
haha thanks you pretty much summed up my reply for me, thanks lol
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spoonitnow
Old 03-16-2006, 11:49 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 Fuck Bush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Greedo017
Old 03-17-2006, 12:05 AM #27 (permalink)  
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 Freedom in Afghanistan, say goodbye Taliban
Free elections in Iraq, Saddam Hussein locked up
Osama’s staying underground, Al Qaida now is finding out
America won’t turn and run once the fighting has begun
Libya turns over nukes, Lebanese want freedom, too
Syria is forced to leave, don’t you know that all this means

Bush was right!
Bush was right!
Bush was right!

Democracy is on the way, hitting like a tidal wave
All over the middle east, dictators walk with shaky knees
Don’t know what they’re gonna do,
their worst nightmare is coming true
They fear the domino effect, they’re all wondering who’s next

Ted Kennedy – wrong!
Cindy Sheehan – wrong!
France – wrong!
Zell Miller – right!

Economy is on the rise kicking into overdrive
Angry liberals can't believe it's cause of W's policies
Unemployment's staying down, Democrats are wondering how
Revenue is going up, can you say "Tax Cuts"

Cheney was right, Condi was right,
Rummy was right, Blair was right
You were right, we were right, “The Right” was right and
Bush was right
i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
 
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Bmxicle
Old 03-17-2006, 12:17 AM #28 (permalink)  
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Its too bad cause canada is gonna go down with you guys when the shit hits the fan.
 
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andy-akb
Old 03-17-2006, 12:27 AM #29 (permalink)  
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Another insightful post from Greed0017, actually a somewhat funny name considering the topic. What does posting song lyrics have anything to do with this topic? Off the top of your head who is Zell Miller and why is he right? If your answer is anything but "a political tool who was near retirement and wanted to leave with a bang" then you are wrong. Oh in why dont they mention Iran and North Korea in your song? What about Sudan? The Congo?
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Greedo017
Old 03-17-2006, 12:46 AM #30 (permalink)  
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
 
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!Luck
Old 03-17-2006, 12:55 AM #31 (permalink)  
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Quote:
He didn't even sign it yet..."
Has he ever not signed something?
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Warpe
Old 03-17-2006, 01:22 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Phantaroth
Old 03-17-2006, 02:29 AM #33 (permalink)  
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No but I'm just saying it seems a bit silly to start a thread talking about Bush being an idiot and then post a link to a bill passed by Congress not yet signed by the President....
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Old 03-17-2006, 02:53 AM #34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Phantaroth
No but I'm just saying it seems a bit silly to start a thread talking about Bush being an idiot and then post a link to a bill passed by Congress not yet signed by the President....
Look closer, who's administration is the cause of this bill?

Then repost. Thanks
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Old 03-17-2006, 04:17 AM #35 (permalink)  
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 wasnt america in a boom during the clinton era and was effectivly in a recession when Bush took over and probably still is?
So wtf would clinton do any different on domestic issues?
he just would nt have gone to war over all this: hed have nuked 'em or got some peace going. Afterall, who got the middle east and irish peace processes underway?
I dont remember bill bombing anyone but monica
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Old 03-17-2006, 04:35 AM #36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
wasnt america in a boom during the clinton era and was effectivly in a recession when Bush took over and probably still is?
So wtf would clinton do any different on domestic issues?
he just would nt have gone to war over all this: hed have nuked 'em or got some peace going. Afterall, who got the middle east and irish peace processes underway?
I dont remember bill bombing anyone but monica
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euphoricism
Old 03-17-2006, 04:53 AM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
I dont remember bill bombing anyone but monica
Nope, he cut and ran, pissing off a good large portion of the armed forces in a fairly similar situation to that is going on in iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu

Note the interesting terrorist ties there, as well.
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Old 03-17-2006, 05:00 AM #38 (permalink)  
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 actually america's economy is doing quite well. and, the recession began before bush took office/as he took office. yea, you can argue over the debt, economy is still doing well though.

While speaking at the Pentagon, the President warned of the "reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals." These "predators of the twenty-first century," he said "will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq."

how can you disagree with that
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:28 AM #39 (permalink)  
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Well, I could say that North Korea, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and the Sudan, off the top of my head, are either greater risks on the nuclear front and/or more active supporters of terrorism than Saddam ever was. I might point out that Osama Bin Laden/Al Qaeda, whose primary goal is to create a fundamentalist Muslim caliphate to rule the entire Middle East, was an avowed enemy of Saddam's areligious Baathist regime. Finally, you might ask yourself if the guy you're quoting might have some personal interest in enlarging Saddam's threat level ex post facto.

That's how I disagree with that.
 
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Phantaroth
Old 03-17-2006, 12:09 PM #40 (permalink)  
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I understand why they passed this bill, but the problem is obviously equally or MORE SO resting on the other portions of federal government then just President Bush.
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Old 03-17-2006, 01:53 PM #41 (permalink)  
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also there is video footage of president bush being warned that the levies in new orleans will most likely break if/when katrina hits. then later after the levies break and lots of poor minorities are dead or living in horrible conditions, he says that he had no idea that the levies were in danger of breaking. seems like a lot of money and people/property could have been spared if he had acted before Katrina hit to reinforce the levies.
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Old 03-17-2006, 02:32 PM #42 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
actually america's economy is doing quite well. and, the recession began before bush took office/as he took office. yea, you can argue over the debt, economy is still doing well though.
Lets think of this like poker. The economy is currently doing well, stock market is strong, etc, but dont be so results oriented. Long term these policies are going to hurt our economy especially in relation to our global economic standing. I dont think anybody is trying to blame the recession on Bush, atleast Im not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
While speaking at the Pentagon, the President warned of the "reckless acts of outlaw nations and an unholy axis of terrorists, drug traffickers and organized international criminals." These "predators of the twenty-first century," he said "will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq."
Nice job tossing in a quote from Bill Clinton without saying it was by him. Anyways, Operation Desert Fox was "in response to Iraq's continued failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions as well as their interference with United Nations Special Commission inspectors." Clinton attacked with a three day air strike campagin which resulted in a cease fire and 0 American deaths and minimal Iraqi casualties. Bush went in with the full strength of our army who dont see an end in sight and have lost over 1000 of their own men, and killed countless thousands of Iraqis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
how can you disagree with that
fairly easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Nope, he cut and ran, pissing off a good large portion of the armed forces in a fairly similar situation to that is going on in iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu

Note the interesting terrorist ties there, as well.
Yea, Somalia was a failure, but are you honestly saying we shouldnt have done anything there? That was more of a dire situation than Iraq ever was [leading to the most recent invasion] or will be. From the article you just posted:

"Operation Provide Relief began in August, 1992, when the White House announced that U.S. military transports would support the multinational UN relief effort in Somalia. Ten C-130s and 400 people were deployed to Mombasa, Kenya during Operation Provide Relief, airlifting aid to remote areas in Somalia, to reduce reliance on truck convoys. One member of the 86th Supply Squadron was deployed with the ground support contingent, USAFE's only contribution to the operation. The Air Force C-130s delivered 48,000 tons of food and medical supplies in six months to international humanitarian organizations trying to help the over three million starving people in the country. When this proved inadequate to stop the massive death and displacement of the Somali people (500,000 dead and 1.5 million refugees or displaced), the U.S. in December, 1992, launched a major coalition operation, Operation Restore Hope, to assist and protect humanitarian activities, under which the United States would assume the unified command of the new operation, in accordance with resolution 794(1992)."

What a horrible, horrible idea. And there is one main difference between Somalia and Iraq. Clinton ordered the troops out of there and "hesitated to use U.S. ground troops in fighting Serbian military and para-military ground forces in Bosnia in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999, out of fear of losing American soldiers in combat, as well as fear of repeating what happened in Mogadishu in 1993." Learning from your mistakes, what an idiot that Clinton was.
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euphoricism
Old 03-17-2006, 06:07 PM #43 (permalink)  
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Yea, Somalia was a failure, but are you honestly saying we shouldnt have done anything there? That was more of a dire situation than Iraq ever was [leading to the most recent invasion] or will be. From the article you just posted:

"Operation Provide Relief began in August, 1992, when the White House announced that U.S. military transports would support the multinational UN relief effort in Somalia. Ten C-130s and 400 people were deployed to Mombasa, Kenya during Operation Provide Relief, airlifting aid to remote areas in Somalia, to reduce reliance on truck convoys. One member of the 86th Supply Squadron was deployed with the ground support contingent, USAFE's only contribution to the operation. The Air Force C-130s delivered 48,000 tons of food and medical supplies in six months to international humanitarian organizations trying to help the over three million starving people in the country. When this proved inadequate to stop the massive death and displacement of the Somali people (500,000 dead and 1.5 million refugees or displaced), the U.S. in December, 1992, launched a major coalition operation, Operation Restore Hope, to assist and protect humanitarian activities, under which the United States would assume the unified command of the new operation, in accordance with resolution 794(1992)."

What a horrible, horrible idea. And there is one main difference between Somalia and Iraq. Clinton ordered the troops out of there and "hesitated to use U.S. ground troops in fighting Serbian military and para-military ground forces in Bosnia in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999, out of fear of losing American soldiers in combat, as well as fear of repeating what happened in Mogadishu in 1993." Learning from your mistakes, what an idiot that Clinton was.
I think youre attempting to be sarcastic with the "What a horrible, horrible idea" part, but I really can't tell because its kind of nonsensical. Anyway, it was a really good, good, idea to send troops there (with a semi-dictatorship - in this case a group of warlords - ruling with an iron hand, keeping the citizens in line with the threat of torture and death by starvation. Sound familiar..?) Troops were sent to try and stabilize the area. If you don't see the obvious parallels, I can't help you.

However, lets remember that clinton was inaugurated in '93, and had nothing to do with the creation of Operation Restore Hope in '92. Nope, that was a republican president, Raegan. Woops.

In fact the only thing Clinton did do for Operation Restore Hope was end it after the first battle. He cut and run, leaving the area destabilized. Essentially the same thing that would happen in Iraq. The parallels are astounding.

The thing was, clinton wasn't an "idiot for learning from his mistakes" as you so aptly put it. He made the mistake, and then he perpetuated it. There is no way we should have left. Theres no way we should leave now.
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:37 PM #44 (permalink)  
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You people realize it's possible for Clinton and Bush both to be shitty, right?

Clinton's handling of Rwanda and Somalia=shitty.

Bush handling of Iraq=also shitty, although shitty on a much larger scale.
 
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:42 PM #45 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by samsonite2100
You people realize it's possible for Clinton and Bush both to be shitty, right?

Clinton's handling of Rwanda and Somalia=shitty.

Bush handling of Iraq=also shitty, although shitty on a much larger scale.
Exactly, I agree with that. Clinton [and the entire global community] fucked up in Rwanda, and Somalia was a mistake too. Bush messed up in Iraq; however, the motivation for entering was misguided when I dont think you can say the same for Somalia. I know what you are saying though, people often counter the cliche "bush is bad" arguments with things about Clinton as though politics is a zero sum game where if you can counter one wrong with another, it is automatically ok.
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Old 03-17-2006, 06:55 PM #46 (permalink)  
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Bush messed up in Iraq; however, the motivation for entering was misguided when I dont think you can say the same for Somalia.
Bush vs. Clinton is an interesting contrast in failings. I do believe that Bush (but mainly, his neocon puppetmasters) have what they consider to be a moral worldview, however unrealistic, that they try to base policy on. Their problem is, they fuck up everything they touch. Also, they're a bunch of arrogant congenital liars who believe the end always justifies the means.

Clinton, OTOH, was a supremely capable and learned president that did a good job policy-wise. His problem was that he had no moral compass and made almost every decision based on political gain. Clinton (and to be fair, the UN and Europe) basically allowed 800,000 Rwandans to be exterminated b/c US opinion polls showed a majority of Americans didn't want any African involvement post Mogadishu.

Actually, Clinton was an arrogant congenital liar, too, so I guess they have that in common. Along w/ most politicians...
 
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:00 PM #47 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Bush vs. Clinton is an interesting contrast in failings. I do believe that Bush (but mainly, his neocon puppetmasters) have what they consider to be a moral worldview, however unrealistic, that they try to base policy on. Their problem is, they fuck up everything they touch. Also, they're a bunch of arrogant congenital liars who believe the end always justifies the means.
I would say that this administration views themselves as saviors and the rest of the world as savages and that it is their duty to "civilize" everybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Clinton, OTOH, was a supremely capable and learned president that did a good job policy-wise. His problem was that he had no moral compass and made almost every decision based on political gain. Clinton (and to be fair, the UN and Europe) basically allowed 800,000 Rwandans to be exterminated b/c US opinion polls showed a majority of Americans didn't want any African involvement post Mogadishu.

Actually, Clinton was an arrogant congenital liar, too, so I guess they have that in common. Along w/ most politicians...
Clinton was a political genius and if it werent for the 22nd amendment he would still be president today. He had no morals in his personal life, and yes most of his decisions were politically motivated, but that kept us out of the trouble that this administration has gotten us into with their holier than thou attitude. Rwanda was a huge fuck up on all levels, and I dont think anybody disagrees with that.

The big thing I disagree with though is calling Clinton arrogant, the man is anything but. Having personally met him several times I can assure you he is much more down to earth than any of the other "big name" politicians, much more so than either Kerry or Bush. From my perspective, I havent met too many politicians that Ive deemed to be arrogant the only one that really sticks out in my mind is RFK Jr.
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:32 PM #48 (permalink)  
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I would say that this administration views themselves as saviors and the rest of the world as savages and that it is their duty to "civilize" everybody.
I agree

Quote:
He had no morals in his personal life, and yes most of his decisions were politically motivated, but that kept us out of the trouble that this administration has gotten us into with their holier than thou attitude.
There's definitely an argument to be had about whether our foreign policy's guiding mandate should be to "keep us out of trouble." I think we agree about Iraq, but Rwanda would have been trouble worth getting into, IMO. I'm with you in the sense that given a choice between a crusading idiot and a pragmatic isolationist, I know which one I'm choosing.


Quote:
The big thing I disagree with though is calling Clinton arrogant, the man is anything but. Having personally met him several times I can assure you he is much more down to earth than any of the other "big name" politicians, much more so than either Kerry or Bush. From my perspective, I havent met too many politicians that Ive deemed to be arrogant the only one that really sticks out in my mind is RFK Jr.
I believe anyone who sees themselves as fit to run the free world must have a pretty large amount of ego-driven arrogance. Furthermore, it takes a special kind of arrogance to get blown in the Lincoln Library.

That said, Bush is the worst. I want to punch him in his smirking piehole.
 
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:40 PM #49 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by samsonite2100
I believe anyone who sees themselves as fit to run the free world must have a pretty large amount of ego-driven arrogance. Furthermore, it takes a special kind of arrogance to get blown in the Lincoln Library.
Clinton doesnt talk down to people and truly engages in a conversation and doesnt act as though he has to. He is an all around nice guy, his political aspirations I think have less to do with arrogance and more to do with his constant striving to succeed. I dont think you have to be arrogant to get a blowjob in your house.

Quote:
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That said, Bush is the worst. I want to punch him in his smirking piehole.
Bush has a smug attitude about him that really irritates people, and its understandable why.
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samsonite2100
Old 03-17-2006, 08:53 PM #50 (permalink)  
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I dont think you have to be arrogant to get a blowjob in your house.
Clinton didn't own the White House while he was in office. It was his residence, yes, but to get sucked off by an intern in the most hallowed ground in American politics displays a blatant disregard for morals/tradition/history/etc. Behavior like this, especially repeated over time, is commonly known as "arrogance."

Not that I gave or give a shit about it, but let's get real.
 
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