Wonderland's OP (at last): TEN NL --- Move up and STAY UP

Originally Posted by wonderland

i was literally wiping blood off the monitor after this hand, and i played it terribly as well.

gonna take a break from poker for a while.

5 players

($0.15, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero calls $0.10

lol...

Best taking a break if you're not feeling too good, yo.

Raise or fold UTG with KJ (any hand really). Open limping is pretty bad.

Open-limping UTG at 10NL? I thought we got rid of that habit (I know you did it at 5NL...but time to rid ourselves of this). This is exactly what happens when you allow a 47o to see the flop for free.

i'd been raising repeatedly with my medium strength hands and getting punished for it, so tiltified and was back to limping. Just on perma-tilt these days.

i said i'd have a break but i find that for me, the best time to play poker is a while after a crap few sessions because i'm forced to apply what i've learned and pay extra attention.

So i went for some 5nl. Man i was wrong, the difference between the two stakes is quite tangible. I got rid of most of today's crap and could have got more but had to finish.

Interesting, i think one appreciates the difference in the new/current stake vs the old one by re-visiting it after a long break.

People fold more in 10nl and yet...
People understand a bit more about thin value, so might call with 2nd pair but not out of stupidity but out of awareness
People limp more in 5nl and let you see flops
People will bet their draws and check the river when they miss at 5nl giving you good reads on when to fire.

etc.

So i think i might grind down there for a while, take my own advise which is to drop down to get confidence and morale back.

I think i really need to reconfigure my strategy, maybe i haven't adjusted yet. Also interesting to see how my skill has developed and can be seen quite clearly in view of dropping down. Like the matrix or something... like: ah, he's checking there, i can put him more easily on a FD or SD. So clear now.

a light hearted approach

Originally Posted by wonderland

i sit down shitting myself becuase no matter how much i learn it seems to make little difference to the fish as my graph flatlines when they take my money.

It a lot more hygeinic in these situations to move the laptop to the bathroom.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Maybe exercise a bit before playing, maybe take a shower.

I think the showers currently needed after the session

Originally Posted by wonderland

I think my issue last night was just that i wasn't folding. Then i was losing so much i was looking for excuses to fold. I think it could be said that: if the circumstances are just right, it would be correct to fold a massive amount of the time in a session. Last night's sesh was one of them. Getting KK and being called by a short stack, an ace comes down and he bets and what can you do?? well fold i guess... or shorties 3bet shoving keeps happening.

Have a good think about this situation. Did anyone call them down?. How big was the pot at their Shove relative to their stack size and your stack size. How often have they actually got the A or have you just assumed they have it .

QJs I just take my incredible pot odds on the turn, he's not folding whatever crap hand he has now which is still ahead of us.

KJs just fold that UTG, as played just check behind the river.


Again, if you feel yourself playing differently due to tilt (or because you think you're running bad), just close the tables down. Its at times like this that you can spew off a few buyins in an incredibly short period of time.

first hand on thios page reminds me of this hand I played the other night
$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($11.75)
UTG+1 pitbullchile ($2.15)
CO ploperine ($13.25)
BTN COTE87 ($19.40)
SB PIMS220 ($13.65)
BB messius007 ($14.20)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, COTE87 calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.95, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, COTE87 calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, COTE87 raises to $3, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($8.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, COTE87 goes all-in $15.30, Hero goes all-in $4.15

Final Pot: $23.65
Hero shows:
COTE87 shows:

COTE87 wins $30.15 ( won +$10.75 )
Hero lost -$11.75

villain I had already stacked on another table when he bluffed all in with Air which coloured my judgement slightly but his stats are
326 hands -$15.05 25.3/19 5.4% 3bet WTSD% 42 W$SD34.8

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

Originally Posted by wonderland

I think my issue last night was just that i wasn't folding. Then i was losing so much i was looking for excuses to fold. I think it could be said that: if the circumstances are just right, it would be correct to fold a massive amount of the time in a session. Last night's sesh was one of them. Getting KK and being called by a short stack, an ace comes down and he bets and what can you do?? well fold i guess... or shorties 3bet shoving keeps happening.

Have a good think about this situation. Did anyone call them down?. How big was the pot at their Shove relative to their stack size and your stack size. How often have they actually got the A or have you just assumed they have it .

looking through my hand histories 1 guy 5 hands


$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO Hero ($10.20)
BTN COTE87 ($32.35)
SB PIMS220 ($13.90)
BB InvisibleA ($1.75)

Pre-flop: ($0.25, 6 players) Hero is CO
Hero calls $0.10, RemKnot checks, ploperine calls $0.10, COTE87 raises to $0.80, 2 folds, Hero folds, RemKnot goes all-in $4.35, ploperine folds, COTE87 calls $3.55

Flop: ($9.05, 2 players)

Turn: ($9.05, 2 players)

River: ($9.05, 2 players)

Final Pot: $9.05
RemKnot shows:
COTE87 shows:

RemKnot wins $8.60 ( won +$4.25 )
Hero lost -$0.10
ploperine lost -$0.10
COTE87 lost -$4.35

gl wonderland, but stop open limping plz.

Some sick hands.

You did good with your read i guess. Although the guys stats are ok, no?

I did this with a guy who's stats were lit up screaming: good player!

and he was in the bb, unraised... i KNEW he had that 7 but *shrug*

Discipline 1: reads and ranges
Discipline 2: FOLLOWING YOUR READS!!

Been trying to figure out how one makes money from playing poker again. On a bit of a break-even stretch and as i observe the feel of the game, it feels like a game of luck with maybe a tiny edge or two.

The main edges being that i raise with reasonable to good hands in position and that i can fold by having SOME understanding of ranges vs fish who can't fold or they can but not until they are 110% sure they're beat. Oh and the odd feel for thin value.

It seems i raise, get called by worse and then it's a matter of luck. Today i can not tell you how many times an ace hit the flop when i had less than an ace. These days i bet anyway because they can only call with the ace. Either they call with 2nd pair and i showdown fuck all or they actually do have a weak A.

So i'm really trying to see if i should or shouldn't be winning here. It feels chaotic. Like FUCK he has it, FUCK i don't, i STILL don't have it, fuck... YES I HAVE IT!!! oh... why are they all folding. And it's like, amonst all that chaos (literally, mathematically) am i supposed to win?

I can imagine breaking even using skill but certainly not sure how people 'destroy' their stake, even down here @ 10. Keith, you finging this at all? swingy you say?

One theory is that a good poker player will be in with the randomness and chaos but can eek out that bit more profit and also fold more wisely.

Example here, villain is like 72/20 and is my NEMESIS. He wants my blood coz i took near enough a buy-in off him. Calling everything i have and waiting to get revenge. Here i sensed danger and i can't articulate more than that, so i lost minimum, but he could have got me to call more than i did. So this is my example of minimizing loss:

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG J@sonB0urne* ($4.25)
CO jorgepk ($3.47)
BTN Hero ($14.75)
SB radon99 ($5.92)
BB cptron66 ($5.67)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, cptron66 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32, 2 players)
cptron66 checks, Hero bets $0.25, cptron66 calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.82, 2 players)
cptron66 checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.82, 2 players)
cptron66 bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

Final Pot: $2.42
Hero shows:
cptron66 shows:

cptron66 wins $2.32 ( won +$1.12 )
Hero lost -$1.20

Guy ended up $13 down @ 5nl!

So yeah, can't quite see the light at the end of the tunnel at the mo. I feel like i was playing good 5nl, bit loose but i was limping a little coz i felt my post flop game was tighter than the competition... so maybe i'm due another sweat or something... i dunno.

That's pretty sick that you didn't raise the river, what were you thinking?

"Losing the minimum" ldo

WHAT IS THE "acronym Renton hates" ???

Like i say, i knew something was up... sort of. And i put a king in his river firing range so i thought ah, it's a split pot at the VERY least.

lol, this is a funny hand because I faced one literally the same when I was at the stage you were in microgrinding and I just called too. Villain has quad 8's and the flush draw completed also. I paired my king.

But I can read souls....ask dranger

Originally Posted by wonderland

WHAT IS THE "acronym Renton hates" ???

Like i say, i knew something was up... sort of. And i put a king in his river firing range so i thought ah, it's a split pot at the VERY least.

El dee oh...like duh, obviously.

I agree with renton on the hate.

I'd have raised the KQ hand for sure. Zeebo theorem, he thinks any boat is the nuts and wont fold. This is the kind of spot where its ok to get stacked.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'd have raised the KQ hand for sure. Zeebo theorem, he thinks any boat is the nuts and wont fold. This is the kind of spot where its ok to get stacked.

Strongly agree.

He's 70/20, he's dumb. Tx stacks off here, even made flushes probably.

{duplicate post}

So i shall attempt to re-write my lost post.

Played a half decent sesh last night and have wiped out some of the losses of the last few days to bring my bankroll to the highest it's ever been. Not hugely, but it's just nice to make that lead.

BR = $320

Almost to the point where i can fully say that i'm wedged in tight to my new stake.

So when i played i tried to think afresh of how the hell do i have an advantage here, how do i make money? Firstly i played two tables and watched like a hawk. I start tables OR look for tables with like two short stacks coz i know they'll be shoving with air and will generally be bad. Looking for avatars which are photographs of the players or a photo of a dog etc.

I would only open another table if i felt that one of the tables wasn't full of fish. God knows how ANYONE makes money from a table full of 25/15ers. Fuck getting AA/KK on the button, all you'd take are a few blinds.

So anyway, I mainly found it was a process of fish hunting. Finding the fish and playing off my ranges against theirs. From then on it was a case of being better post flop in terms of a) reading them b) getting the MOST value i could and c) folding when it was necessary. Those are three skills the fish don't have.

How many times do you see fish limping with AA/KK, checking the flop, min betting the turn hoping to get raised, going mad on the river but it's too late coz their villain has hit their flush with like J5s.

Value. I was in a hand with a shorty. By the turn i'd made a good hand, he had $1 left in his stack and the pot was about $1. So instead of betting $1 and putting him all in, i bet .50c on the turn and .50c on the river. Fish can actually fold a dollar bet on the turn if it means their whole stack i've noticed. Sometimes, betting smaller could be classed as gambling, but i feel when the time is right and over a lot of hands it will make good profit.

Also i was adjusting more. Tighten up and don't try to gl

So in answer to my own question, to make a notable difference in my stake, and thus profit:

1. find the fish!
2. establish their range and make notes when you see the ones who show down crap (i saw one guy lose $40 @ 5nl in 15 minutes by calling every bet and bluffing every street, never got a hand against him - damn)
3. based on the above, learn to get thin value from your medium hands.
4. again, based on how much of a station they are, get as much value as possible when you know you're ahead (one guy 3bet me with AJ, i had 88 and had 10/1 implied odds but i called anyway because i KNEW i'd stack him if i hit, i hit, i stacked, he called a 3/4 bet on a K8J flop with his AJ).
5. Stop limping without very good reads on people left to bet.
6. Fold more. I keep getting good draws and chasing to the river. I keep getting so many aces on the flop that aren't mine and just not believing villain can have the ace that often. This coincides with thin value and the part of thin value that requires you to give up once you realise you're not ahead.

Probably other things i forgot but i'm getting there slowly.

So, last time i tried this i stuck in a photo coz this is a blog and i wanted to share some of my lifey in here this is what i did last week! I even applied poker discipline to ride within my limits and not do anything stupid.



Be nice to do more of this if i gets good poker winnings!

Later folks!

Originally Posted by wonderland

So when i played i tried to think afresh of how the hell do i have an advantage here, how do i make money? Firstly i played two tables and watched like a hawk. I start tables OR look for tables with like two short stacks coz i know they'll be shoving with air and will generally be bad. Looking for avatars which are photographs of the players or a photo of a dog etc.

Oh snap. Lockpull = fish! LOL JP. Nice job getting your bankroll up. Glad to hear it!

And that's a sick photo. Is that really you?

fish avatars are, for me, almost as good as HUD sometimes! lol.

Lockpull? what that?

Yeah that's me on my bikey going around Mallory Park. Took that corner at around 90mph, sometimes knee to the ground, sometimes not.

there I was thinking the bike had stalled and you were falling ever so slowly off sideways , cursing your bad luck and wondering why you can't beat all the other racers

Yeah that's me on my bikey going around Mallory Park. Took that corner at around 90mph, sometimes knee to the ground, sometimes not..

at least it wasn't bum on the track round the corners

yeah but there's a difference between going round a corner and going round a corner @ 90, there aren't that many circuits in europe with such corners! twas a specific boast.

There were a few offs that day in my group though.

So had a quick session tonight and got half a buy-in then lost it to one bad beat ish kinda hand and one stupid bluff. NEED TO STOP BLUFFING!! I had KJs and the flop comes down Q9X my suit on 2 of them. Full 6 players on the flop in a 3x raised pot. Call a .20c bet to get to the river... nothing, i figure they've hit fuck all, so i bet .75c and get one fold. By now there's like $3.5 in the pot, so i decided to bet less than half the pot coz it should be profitable a good % of the time. Fucker calls with Q no kicker.

Also, i was in some SICK spots where i just HAD to call and each time i fucking KNEW what they had. So i'm going to have to start making some sick lay downs. Thing is, i'm developing a keen sense for when they have it, just like... the speed in which they bet, the amount, my subconscious just seems to know what it means.

So i ended my session coz i just couldn't feel any bad players after that. They weren't 'good' either but people were starting to fold, 3bet etc. so i put it down.

A massive part of poker is damage limitation management. There's a whole array of factors which, when added up, constitute a significantly increased win rate. And it's all about folding.

One tip i have is like, say you have KK and have been waiting for it, get all excited, raise, get one caller, fuckin ace WILL hit the flop (think this has happened 9/10 times for me in the last week, and also, they have the bastard ace 9/10 times coz people call with ANY ace) you know when they have it, so just fold to aggression and immediately focus on something else (like the next table) like you just threw away J4o. Just bin it. Once you're beat, those cards are as good as blank sheets of paper, so throw them away like they are.

later folks.

Woah that's pretty sick. I wish I wasn't such a pansy cuz that bike thing looks like fun

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Woah that's pretty sick. I wish I wasn't such a pansy cuz that bike thing looks like fun

+1

sooo, wondering if i played this hand ok. At first i was like, shit, i was way behind here, but now i think i did ok actually... *scratches head*

http://weaktight.com/1110370


DocRon001 = 75/25 over 4 hands (wotev)
SNOWHAND0 = 80/0 over 5 hands (again... wotev)

See i'm not exactly going to raise JKs OOP with 3 limpers. He shouldn't have called the bet or raise on the flop with 2nd pair no kicker. I was pondering calling the turn but when i saw the pot odds i thought, hmm, nice.

What say you?

I would fold the turn and raise the river

Untick the option to show results. Turn is probably a fold, river is close. If you raise its to raise/fold, so dont raise unless you're prepared to fold.

PF I just call like you did. I found a leak in my game was isolating decent hand OOP against multiple limpers. You just end up with a multiway flop OOP with medium str hands causing yourself problems.

Definitely raise the river here, you are missing so much value out of worse K's that didn't two pair and worse Q's that may or may not have two paired.

yeeeah. Missed value. I was just concerned, i was putting KQ in their range but then wondered if they'd have raised with that. Some people do limp with AK at these levels.

Then when the heart hit i got scared and was just praying they'd bet small. Not saying this is correct but i am sharing my thought process for evauation purposes. If i did raise here it would be a min raise coz he aint calling big with that scary heart on the river.

I found a leak in my game was isolating decent hand OOP against multiple limpers. You just end up with a multiway flop OOP with medium str hands causing yourself problems.

Could you elaborate here? what do you mean by decent hand, as in you have a decent hand and you try to isolate but end up getting called by a few, so your hand loses equity?

I mean decent, but not great. Something like QJ or A9, stuff like that. I raise in the blinds after 2 or more limpers and see a 3 way flop which I miss most of the time v's people who wont fold any part of the board. You can check it out in your HEM filters. When I did I was a pretty decent loser in hands where I raised behind 2+ limpers.

yeah, especially against loose players. Thing is, we think: ah, we're ahead of their range. But we're also getting called by (often) more than one of those limpers, thus slicing out equity into a smaller piece.

I guess it's the thing of tightening up again. Fold or check. Then make a conscious note that you're playing a multi-way limped pot and not to get married to the flop/board without damn good reason.

gaaaah. Monster tilt hangover.

just had such a swingy sesh. Got a 1.5 buy-ins in 45 mins, possibly my biggest win at 10, then lost every fucking penny.

HUGE tilt.

These little fucking short stack bastards keep 3betting me. What am i gonna do!? one cunt 3bet me with Q70 when i had TT, so i shoved... hit a queen on the turn. Bla bla equity.

Another cunt calls my AK with 79s and hits a gut shot on the flop, calls a large bet, hits his gutshot on the turn, all in, bam. Took the last of my day's winnings.

A lot of sharks playing too, fucking 3betting is the new calling @ 10nl these days. Check raising is the new betting.

So, motivation is flagging again. Each step at this stage means an awful lot. My win rate is SHIT too. Who the fuck gets just under 5PTBB/100 @ 10nl?!

One good thing though was that i found a new style or at least a way to stop donating to fish. I tighten up all round, throw away anything that can get me into trouble. AJ UTG, and i've also sorta stopped blind steeling coz i'm getting a) 3bet light b) 3bet shoved or c) they're calling with any ace or just generally hitting the flop vs my medium strength steeling range.

I've had to stop being agro, check/call with my draws multiway because again, i keep bleeding chips by betting my draws. Every now and then i will bet my draws but i've had to cut back on it.

I'm just generally staying out of trouble, and if there are fish around, they aren't noticing and are still calling with crap rather than realising my range is tighter.

Another very unprofessional thing i'm going to start doing is stop playing when i'm ahead and having a good session. To date i literally can't remember ever going "wow, i'm up... i should keep playing while things are good!" and then continuing to profit. If i'm lucky i'll keep my winnings but often i go downhill.

No idea how i'm gonna survive higher stakes.

You must pick good spots to steal blinds. Avoid stealing blinds from shortstacks. I actually avoid shortstacks altogether. Once I started avoiding them, my 10NL game went back on track.

post the AK hand?

Have you considered that maybe you're a victim of fancy play syndrome? You're getting frustrated about getting 3 bet or 3 bet light. I play @ $10NL and to date have NEVER worried about my 3 bet % or 3 betting light or getting 3 bet light or anything with the words "3 bet" in it. Those are all advanced concepts that I believe only start to creep into our thought process at the mid-stakes when the competition is much better and you're short handed and you're sitting with deeper stacks. If you have 100BB or less and someone 3 bets you @ $10 NL, shove it if you have AA or KK. Outside of that, don't get caught up in the x bet game - just call or put your raise in and be done with it. That whole concept was born solely because it was tougher to get paid off through conventional means. You don't have to delve very deep to get paid by players at these stakes at this point in time.

"But, Jason, if I 3bet shove with just AA and KK, I'm not balancing my range and villains will exploit me." Good. Most of the time you SHOULD be playing in an exploitable way until villains prove they can exploit you. Don't assume they can or will. Don't get fancy until something specific and actionable dictates you should.

Focus on solid poker fundamentals and improving your reads and putting opponents on hands by showdown and you should develop into a winner @ these stakes. Eliminate "3 bet" from your vocabulary. Only try to steal from tight blinds that don't defend - not 75% VPIP maniacs. Don't worry about short term results and don't worry about protecting a win. Don't look ahead to how you will do @ high stakes. Just be happy you're a winning player @ any stakes.

Good luck.

Hey Jason,

no, i did USED to get into fancy play... ah, i'll two barrel bluff here. But just a couple of days ago i stopped and tonight, built up the 1.5 buy ins through VERY straightforward tight play.

Like you say, eff blind stealing, eff bluffing really. I hold folding now most highly, if i can have the sense to. My reads are getting awesome, i just fuckin know when i'm beat so much of the time. It's just some really tricky situations where i get fucked. I'm sort of given odds to call and then i sort of hit and i had no idea he'd call with such crap and it better etc.

here is that AK hand. Villain 42/0 over 19 hands. I just called that river bet almost out of fun, i shoved pretty much because that's the course of action i was going to take. In terms of HIS effective stack, i decided that the turn bet would have had me pot committed coz like $2 was half his stack. I guess i should have shoved but i actually wanted him to call. I saw that flop as dry as fuuck.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG zanetti69 ($3.65)
CO Hero ($8.70)
BTN 13467910 ($9.75)
SB gorbatij ($5.95)
BB leds69 ($5.20)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is CO
zanetti69 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, leds69 calls $0.30, zanetti69 calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25, 3 players)
leds69 checks, zanetti69 checks, Hero bets $0.80, leds69 calls $0.80, zanetti69 folds

Turn: ($2.85, 2 players)
leds69 checks, Hero bets $1.90, leds69 raises to $3.80, Hero calls $1.90

River: ($10.45, 2 players)
leds69 goes all-in $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

Final Pot: $10.85
Hero shows:
leds69 shows:

leds69 wins $10.35 ( won +$5.15 )
zanetti69 lost -$0.40
Hero lost -$5.20

hey Wonderland I was sitting to your left at 1 table yesterday for about 50 hands (tiny sample size) - the stats I have on you are something like 23/8/0.8

You limped in on a lot of pots and there were a few spots where you had position and should have been raising it up rather than limping in. It seemed like you were generally pretty passive in the hands you played.

ah hey there. Should have said hello.

that is a strange stat, but no unlike me @ certain tables. I was varying stats a lot in differing tables but sometimes i do get a run of limping spots.

But also of late i've been getting called/3bet and destroyed so much i have developed a hesitancy for opening in certain spots.

You have to understand that you diminish your post-flop fold equity by limping. Don't open limp any hands.

running like a cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunt of late.

some amusing hands from tonight's land of improbably losses...

http://weaktight.com/1117450

http://weaktight.com/1117451

http://weaktight.com/1117452

http://weaktight.com/1117454

These hands aren't for game theory, just anecdotal, so i left the results up on purpose. Baaad cards time.

explain thought processes on all streets in 2 - 3. i dont wanna hear BUT WAHHHHHHHHHHHH I AM ON A DONWSWING SO wxyz. swings are irrelevant sir, if a play is +EV, its always +EV regardless of how we are "running". if another play is more +EV, its always more +EV.

AA i'm thinking, fuck, flush, bet anyway. Fuck, he called and fuck, another club. but it's checked so maybe he's scared of it too? river, i'm just wanting value at that stage from weaker hands. Inretrospect i was a bit wedded to the aces. What would other people do here, check them down?

QQ i just thought: ah, fuckers have hit two pair or a set easy, or have semi slow played AA or something. More likely i just thought, fuck it, if i call here i'm probably stacking off with the non short stack. I always figure i'm behind here against two shove-happy fish who have called with bullshit and hit. So i got the hell out. I mean god, could we have put them AT ALL on what they actually had???

Guy in the AK hand had an OESD not a gutshot, he definately had odds to call your flop bet there.

so he has approx 30% chance of hitting. About 4.5:1 and i'm giving him LESS than 2:1??