time to start winning

nh, sir - that's why you need to get back to grinding, that's one helluva read, and lots of guys (like me) can learn a lot from you

thanks robb. villain sat out and quit immediately after this hand (on his BU). i hate to admit that i derived pleasure purely from someone else's displeasure, but goddamn it felt good to know i had rattled his cage a little a bit. it was only $4 he lost, after all.

on a more serious note, i think there's a lesson to be learnt in there about ego and tilt and how they are related. i have a tendency (coming from back when i used to be able to handread a little bit) to make some pretty marginal and questionable plays when i feel i have a read or my bullshit detector is going off. on this occasion, this one worked, and so i felt good. i don't often get to call down 3-barrels with worst pair/worst kicker. so when i made this call and saw his hand, my ego went "woohoo", or something like that. HOWEVER, quite recently in this thread, i said:

Originally Posted by rpm

i feel like i can see my where my edges are quite clearly when i'm sitting and playing. but then inevitably i make a mistake, large or minor, or even just make a non-standard play that i'm unsure about and which doesn't work out, then tilt like crazy, quit the session immediately, and don't play for a week. so it's hard to really tell.

and so the times i call there and he shows up with one of the 20ish combos of value hands he has in his range (which still comprise <70% of his range, making my call +EV regardless of which actual hand he has) i will often become incredibly results-oriented, second-guessing the shit out of myself, probably convince myself it was FPS, and then yeah i think we all know what happens then.

i had a point when i started writing this. hmmmm. i guess my point is there are two sides to the coin and we should try to detach our emotions from BOTH sides as best we can. i've always believed that positive and negative emotions from poker are actually part of the same process (ego). so celebrating less when you win/play well directly correlates with tilting less when you lose/play bad. i could well be wrong though. after all, i'm probably the most tilted guy around here since luckyslevin.

i've noticed people are posting pictures of shit they bought with their dirty, filthy gambling money. seeing as motivation is a pretty big problem for me, and i fucking love this guitar, i thought i'd do the same.



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Originally Posted by rpm

i'm probably the most tilted guy around here since luckyslevin.

I srsly lol'd - twice. Actually, I'm still laughing.

I get caught in two minds about not getting too high with the wins. Spoon always said that - zen like peacefulness when running good, zen like peacefulness when running bad. Tommy Angelo suggests much the same thing.

But for me, the joy of playing is battling through the valleys to the next peak. Of course, we all know how much I tilt, so maybe my perspective isn't the one you should listen to!

Originally Posted by rpm

i've noticed people are posting pictures of shit they bought with their dirty, filthy gambling money.

get back to the tote and spotting fast horses imo\

as for who is the biggest tilt on ftr, pm me if you want an opinion

played >1k hands in a month for the first time this year last month. ran like god at 10nl and got my ass kicked at 25nl. games were really soft though even playing at anti-peak hour so hopefully i can focus on this shit and start siphoning some $ out of the micro steaks economy.

going to post up some hands for me to work through because it seems online forums are the only bearable HH format at my disposal in the absence of microsoft word. many of these spots will probably seem utterly trivial and over-analysed but i have certain things i want to work on. i don't expect people to comment on the hands or play, but feel free if you want and can be bothered. really this is just the only place i can go over hands the way i like to. here's one a i fucked up.

BU is 15/8/20 over 14. has 3bet once from the CO, so i'm not particularly worried about being beaten down by 3bets or anything.

this is second hand i've ever played with SB so no reads except his stack size and that he folded his BB. preflop sizing in this one suggests fish.

BB is 43/14/50 over 14. stats and stack size suggest fish

PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: $11.10
UTG: $72.79
Hero (CO): $25.00
BTN: $32.36
SB: $24.75

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 6 A

fold, Hero raises to $0.62, fold, SB raises to $1.25, BB calls $1.00, Hero calls $0.63

raising pre seems standard because we will be on the effective BU most times we go to a flop, and taking it down pre is fine as well. not sure what to think of SB's 3bet sizing, but from experience it could be as wide as like all pairs and like AJ+,KJ+,QJ. i cant really see myself folding much at all in position with 5:1 odds and a fish in the pot. i expect BB's range to be much the same (all pairs, most broadways) given he is a fish and the raise is small.

Flop: ($3.75, 3 players) J 9 A
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

don't know anything about SB's CB tendencies, or BB's donking freqencies so don't think their checks give me much information. i suppose either player would bet anything two pair+ for protection (with two pair or sets) or for value (with whatever flushes they can have)

wasn't sure if i should check or bet here. the worst hands i imagine being called by are naked (better) flush draws, which have 35% vs me anyway. and any ace which calls will be in good shape vs me. this seems a reasonable calling range for either player.

Board: Ad 9d Jd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.287% 42.20% 01.08% 19220 493.00 { As6d }
Hand 1: 56.713% 55.63% 01.08% 25334 493.00 { QcQd, QdQh, QdQs, JJ, TcTd, TdTh, TdTs, 99, ATs+, KdQd, QJs, AJo+, KcQd, KdQc, KdQh, KdQs, KhQd, KsQd }

so i guess i don't hate a check but betting for value/equity protection could be better. don't know. i guess if sets are removed from that range i'd have more equity and might make it more of a bet

Turn: ($3.75, 3 players) 3
SB bets $2.00, fold, Hero calls $2.00

i think this is usually going to be Ax, QQ/KK if he has them and maybe some slow-played nut flushy type hands. may still have some sets too. i called because i felt i had the best hand at least some, albeit probably small, % of the time and some suckout equity. probably my first mistake.

River: ($7.75, 2 players) 3
SB bets $4.00, Hero calls $4.00

pretty sure i have close to 0% equity here and i need ~25%. i might chop SOME of the time but pretty rarely. and calling for a chop as best case scenario is pretty bad anyway. i can't imagine this river sizing ever being a bluff on this board. and especially not after a C/B/B line. pretty sure i'm losing $4 in EV every time i call the river. probably actually be more profitable to jam than call but that didn't cross my mind at the time.

Solid analysis of the hand rpm. I think your best line versus these villains is to b/f flop since you can get value from TT-KKd. If villain c/c's flop and leads turn/river you can be pretty sure you are beat (i.e. there are a lot more Ax than missed draws)

Lately I've also been defending pretty wide in position to 3bets in multiway pots. However A6o has a lot of reverse implied odds and basically no drawmaking potential -- even with a fish in the pot I'm not sure defending is +EV

cheers. you're probably right about preflop. it's marginal at best and may cause me to spew a lot at later points in the hand if my game isn't good. which it currently isn't.

more hands. i'm not necessarily hero. just looking over people's plays/strategies, putting myself in their shoes to see if i think they are doing things right/wrong (and what) and trying to learn about poker in the process. my focus for the time being (until i play bad enough to tilt and re-become disillusioned with poker) is CB strategies

hero is 34/26/7 over this ~120 sample. has been stealing lots (41/73/80 in CO/BU/SB). folded to 9/12 3bets and has CB 5/10

BB is 26/22/9. has 3bet 2 or 3 times from the blinds, folded to 1/2 CB's. same sample. hasn't donked a flop, has C/R'd 1/2

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $53.92
SB: $60.32
BB: $55.81
UTG: $96.33
Hero (CO): $76.91

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has J Q

fold, Hero raises to $1.25, fold, fold, BB calls $0.75

range:
22-JJ(57),A9s-AQs(14),ATo-AQo(30),KTs+(10),KJo+(18),Q9s+(9),J9s+(8),T9s(4),9 8s(4),87s(4),76s(4)
162 combos if i can count or add correctly

probably smaller in reality but whatever.

Flop: ($2.75, 2 players) 5 2 3
BB checks, Hero?

checking range:
probably all of it.

continues vs a bet (whether call or raise):
22-33(6),44(6),55(3),66-JJ(33),A9s-AQs(14),ATo-AQo(30),76s(4)KTcc+(3),KTss+(3),KTdd+(3),Q9cc+(3), Q9ss+(3),Q9dd+(3)

so all sets, overpairs, Ax (gutter + reasonable equity versus hero's range with high-card alone), 76s (probably C/R's if it continues) and some Kx and Qx suited w/BDFD's to represent some C/R bluffs which i expect from reggy looking villains vs CB's on this flop

combos: 114, or roughly 114/162 = 0.70 of his preflop range continues vs a bet, folding 30% of the time.

bet sizes:
1/2P = 33% required FF in a vacuum
3/4P = 42% required FF in a vacuum
2/3P = 39% required FF in a vacuum

so hero needs to bet slightly under 1/2P in order for the CB to be +EV in a vacuum. probably can do up to half pot given that he will have something around 8-10% turn suckout equity the times villain just C/C's. however doing this means hero will CB close to 100% of his range and is hugely exploitable to a C/R's on this board, even though villain can credibly rep verrrrry little in doing so.

If villain c/r, what would you continue with (even though he reps little)? Just seems that cbetting this flop much more than 50% seems far too exploitable given you whiff the flop more often than not when in late position.

i'd probably actually peel a x/r pretty liberally here in reality because it's so hard for villain to have a hand (as you said) and people rarely C/R like 99/TT/whatever the top of their pocket pair range is for thin value. this board actually hits my range better than his in the sense that i still most of the nut combinations in my range (probably all of them except 64o) when nut is defined as 2pr+. though when i CB it i obviously have whiffed a massive amount of the time, and that "nut" part of my range is a very very small part until i continue vs a x/r

fwiw i actually was hero in this one and i did check it back because i felt like any pair or Ax would continue because my CB range is so airy on this board.

JQ hand is interesting. Shame there isn't a heart among that flopped junk. Discount 22-66 a bunch vs this villain, but still check it back and prepare to raise the turn

you have more nut hands in your range than he does, i'm not sure how relevant that is though, cos your range is still mostly a couple of overcards + sometimes a gutter

Originally Posted by daven

JQ hand is interesting. Shame there isn't a heart among that flopped junk. Discount 22-66 a bunch vs this villain, but still check it back and prepare to raise the turn

i'm curious as to the rationale for raising turn leads? seems like that's just too often going to perceived as the reg deciding too late in the hand that its time to start bluffing when he credibly reps nothing. obviously depends a lot on hero's strategy (or more specifically, villain's perception of it), i don't have any remotely strong hands i check back this flop with.

Originally Posted by daven

you have more nut hands in your range than he does, i'm not sure how relevant that is though, cos your range is still mostly a couple of overcards + sometimes a gutter

certainly true when i make the initial CB, though the point i was trying to make by comparing the size of our "nut ranges" was that i feel i can peel vs C/R's pretty wide here because they will often just be Ax trying to attack a perceived weak range, and my range (once it's narrowed down by my continuing vs a C/R, when i will almost always just call) is far stronger than villains because he seldom has more than 9 combinations of nuts, and i have 3-4x times that many, all of which i will just call vs a C/R so villain can hang himself on later streets if he wants.

... maybe i'm thinking too deeply about this

thanks for reading+commenting to both you and beano

qualifier - been drinking and i feel like i use the word 'range' too often below..

Originally Posted by rpm

i'm curious as to the rationale for raising turn leads? seems like that's just too often going to perceived as the reg deciding too late in the hand that its time to start bluffing when he credibly reps nothing. obviously depends a lot on hero's strategy (or more specifically, villain's perception of it), i don't have any remotely strong hands i check back this flop with.

key is, does villain believe this is the case? it isn't the case for a lot of players. Think is, if you check back KJo type of hands then there are a lot of hands you hit a pair with, vs his turned still nada, right?

people like to scoop unwanted pots. This pot looks unloved when you check back. People rarely raise turns, so when you do it's a hard spot for villain to play against most of the time when he donks. And villains will donk a lot here. You CAN check back nut hands on this flop, and probably should some of the time. As it stands, once you hit the turn your range turns top pair+ a lot.

Originally Posted by rpm

the point i was trying to make by comparing the size of our "nut ranges" was that i feel i can peel vs C/R's pretty wide here because they will often just be Ax trying to attack a perceived weak range, and my range (once it's narrowed down by my continuing vs a C/R, when i will almost always just call) is far stronger than villains because he seldom has more than 9 combinations of nuts, and i have 3-4x times that many, all of which i will just call vs a C/R so villain can hang himself on later streets if he wants.

... maybe i'm thinking too deeply about this

if you peel vs check-raises then how are you planning to take it down given that you are only rarely winning at showdown unimproved?

i wouldn't actually call a C/R with the hand i had in this spot (and part of my reasoning for not CBing a seemingly standard CB spot here was because i expected most of his Ax to continue, and to C/R bluff me with some frequency), when i said i could continue vs a C/R range "liberally" (or something, cant remember) i was responding to a question bean counter asked about being too exploitable vs C/R's - speaking in terms my whole range and not this hand. ie with middleish pairs and perhaps even some of. my better Ahigh's. because villain rarely actually has a hand and i can believably have quite a few strong/nutted hands when i CB/call a C/R

above mightnt make sense as ive also been drinking quite a bit. i'll make more sense of t tomorrow if needs be