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tugger
Old 10-30-2009, 04:25 AM #101 (permalink)  
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tugger
daeyeth, the last hand you posted demonstrates exactly why bankroll management is so important. Imagine if you took all your money onto this table and this happened... With proper bankroll management, you can afford to sit back and be pleased you got your money in so good here, 3 all in and you're miles ahead. With all your money on the line, suddenly this is not a pleasant experience at all. Your kings are still losing here, what, 40% of the time? I'm guessing. But the point is, play it safe with your roll, and you're winning loads of cash over time in this situation. Put too much on the line, and these coolers cost more than, what, 3% of your roll?
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daeyeth
Old 10-31-2009, 08:51 AM #102 (permalink)  
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daeyeth
yea tru dat


Just a stellar night, oh yeah. Not in terms in winnings (although I did make the most I've ever made from 2NL), just that for once I didn't make any bad decisions for once. My stats showed that my preflop was much better than it usually is. I'm usually 20/10 for 2NL but this time I was 15/11 for this session; folding my 1 cent SB probably got me there as I usually just complete it.

I only faced one tough decision and I think I made a good fold with TPTK vs an all-in as the guy showed me TPGK but with the flush draw.
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Pelion
Old 10-31-2009, 01:05 PM #103 (permalink)  
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Pelion
Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
Quote:
Originally Posted by daeyeth
...
How come? I'm a beginner here, could you elaborate on that? Is it that I shouldn't just shove with Aces?
He's just being a dick. I'm unpopular and he's jumping on the bandwagon, that's all. It's kinda nice to know I have that effect after just a month or two.
He isnt just being a dick. The first 2 paragraphs of what you wrote is really bad advice, especially for a new player who is less able to work out for themselves that its bad. The rest is pretty solid though. When you just shove with aces you do 2 things. Firstly you force him to fold a lot of the second best hands that you want to stack postflop. Secondly you completely deny yourself the chance to learn how to play in tough but very profitable spots.
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
 
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tugger
Old 10-31-2009, 02:23 PM #104 (permalink)  
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tugger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
Quote:
Originally Posted by daeyeth
...
How come? I'm a beginner here, could you elaborate on that? Is it that I shouldn't just shove with Aces?
He's just being a dick. I'm unpopular and he's jumping on the bandwagon, that's all. It's kinda nice to know I have that effect after just a month or two.
He isnt just being a dick. The first 2 paragraphs of what you wrote is really bad advice, especially for a new player who is less able to work out for themselves that its bad. The rest is pretty solid though. When you just shove with aces you do 2 things. Firstly you force him to fold a lot of the second best hands that you want to stack postflop. Secondly you completely deny yourself the chance to learn how to play in tough but very profitable spots.
Look, I'm past the arguments, things seemed to have settled down nicely. I accept I came in this forum with a bit of attitude, I was a bit quick to fight back at people who had a bit of attitude themselves. Hopefully people can see now that I'm not here just to argue, I want to talk poker, share ideas and improve my game. It goes without saying that sometimes I'll give bad advice... we all might at some point. The idea of this forum for me is to see what othetrs think, not to blindly follow what everyone else says. I want to understand why people are saying what they say, and others should adopt this policy too. Now, pushing with aces is not the best way to play them, that's for sure. But is it bad advice? Well, not really, because shoving with aces pre flop is +ev, however you look at it. So it's not bad advice, it's just not the best advice. Bad advice would be to suggest he limps with them. You're right though, it's important to learn how to deal with these tough spots, and we're avoiding these confrontations if we just open shove.

Let me just make it clear to you, I'm not shoving with aces. I quickly took on board what you guys were saying. It's so last month!
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Stacks
Old 10-31-2009, 06:19 PM #105 (permalink)  
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Stacks will become famous soon enoughStacks will become famous soon enough
 Are you implying that limping with Aces is -EV? Because it's not.. You have the best hand obviously. It's just not as +EV as raising with them. Which is along the same lines as open shoving. Yes, obviously it's +EV, but it's not the most +EV play we can make, and therefore it doesn't maximize the value we get, thus earning us the most money. In poker, you shouldn't try to settle for just +EV plays. You should settle to make the most +EV decision possible.

I'm not knocking your advice because it was wrong, and I don't think most people were. It was just the fact that you knew it wasn't the best way, but chose to play it that way anyways, then passing it along to others.

If given the choice between a +EV play, a Breakeven play, or a -EV play, any smart individual will take the +EV play. Logic will show that if given a choice between a +EV play that will yield you $1 on average, and a +EV play that will yield you $20 on average, that any smart individual will take the play that returns the most profit on average ($20 decision). So trying to find those spots where we are making +EV players, but still missing value, and correcting it, so we are maximizing our value and earning the most, is what will improve an individual's winrate.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Old 10-31-2009, 08:05 PM #106 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

First off, I like you already daeyeth. I don't know what it is, but when someone knows how to organize a post, such as you did with your OP, I just instantly like them. Easy to read, coherent, and fucking bolded words... YES!
This.

Good luck OP.
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tugger
Old 11-01-2009, 02:36 AM #107 (permalink)  
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tugger
Can we stop with the aces? Don't limp with them, or open shove. It's fairly simple pre flop. I was talking crap. I probably still am. But enough with the shoving with aces. I get it. OP gets it. My dog gets it. It's so last month.
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tugger
Old 11-01-2009, 02:41 AM #108 (permalink)  
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tugger
Quote:
I'm not knocking your advice because it was wrong, and I don't think most people were. It was just the fact that you knew it wasn't the best way, but chose to play it that way anyways, then passing it along to others.
Oh, this. Yes, you're right. This I will try not to do.
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daeyeth
Old 11-03-2009, 09:21 PM #109 (permalink)  
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daeyeth
It's incredible how much easier things become by simply tightening up your preflop game. I feel I've passed the first hump, I feel very confident in 2NL. I can now see very clearly what my holes were in 2NL: 1) Limping too much, even if it's just my SB and 2) Cbetting too much, not understanding the purpose of my cbetting.

While I still can't put ppl on ranges as I usually don't have stats for them, I can at least see through their actions and it has become obvious to me when they have something and when they don't. For one thing, a majority of 2NL players love slow playing good hands, that's for sure.

Just had my longest session so far and I learned a lot. I learned that there's two levels of tilt, emotional and intellectual. Emotional is the worst kind but intellectual is more common. After I lost a hand, I didn't feel bad but, in retrospect, I found that I was projecting myself onto the player that beat me. I thought to myself, I bet this guy thinks I'm tilting because he just beat me, so I know he doesn't have a hand. No, I was wrong. It's my luck that he got Kings the hand after he beat me but it's my bad that I didn't see it coming.

I took a little break after that before I continuing to play. I wanted to prove to myself that I could still play good poker after losing. I mean, despite losing those two hands, I was feeling great. Before those hands, I was doing incredible and was up 10$ in a really short amount of time (incidentally, I lost it all in those hands), I was sure I was playing good poker. So I came back, opened a couple a tables, and did play good. I can count the number of times I made bad decisions in the 4 hour session, which was around 4 or 5.

A while later, I stacked the guy that beat me, ha! This time around, he was projecting onto me, thinking I would be tilted against him and didn't have a hand. In the end, I only came out up 2$, which really surprised me because I thought I was doing awesome. Well, I was but I forgot how many tables I was playing. I was playing six and was handling it fine but I see the trade off now; the more tables you play, the longer you have to play for to get a good return, unless you get some good card runs of course.

I'm feeling awesome, confident. I feel like I can take on 5NL, yet I'm not in a hurry at all. I still feel I can learn some things in 2NL and now that winning is coming so easily, following the BRM rules I've set out for myself is so easy, I don't feel impatient at all. Heh, ya know, BRM is easy to follow if you know what you're doing, but a week ago, I had no idea what I was doing.
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daeyeth
Old 11-04-2009, 10:05 AM #110 (permalink)  
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daeyeth
Just had a WOW hand to get me my biggest winnings ever from a 2NL session. My play is bad obviously because I'm pretty much just paying to see that my QQ was indeed beat by both KK and AA all in one hand. It's a bad habit that the 2NL stakes induce in me. If they 4 bet all in preflop, I would of folded but with all of them calling, I kinda felt priced at that point.

The context is, apparently two of these players were having a fight. I wasn't really paying attention because of multitabling, I caught some of it, but I had no idea that was why they were betting/raising. The other two, I dunno what the hell they were thinking, maybe they felt priced in too and salivated at the size of the pot.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



BB ($2.80)
UTG ($0.18)
UTG+1 ($4.54)
MP1 ($0.93)
MP2 ($1.59)
MP3 ($1.98)
CO ($4.92)
Button ($1.39)
daeyeth (SB) ($3.32)



Preflop: daeyeth is SB with Q, Q
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP2 bets $0.11, MP3 calls $0.11, 1 fold, Button calls $0.11, daeyeth raises to $0.64, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.62, MP2 calls $0.53, MP3 calls $0.53, Button calls $0.53

Flop: ($3.24) 9, 2, 5 (5 players)
daeyeth bets $2.68 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $2.68, MP2 calls $0.95 (All-In), MP3 calls $1.34 (All-In), Button calls $0.75 (All-In)

Turn: ($11.64) 7 (5 players, 4 all-in)

River: ($11.64) K (5 players, 4 all-in)

Total pot: $11.64 | Rake: $0.55
Main pot: $6.99 between UTG+1, MP2, MP3, Button and daeyeth, won by daeyeth
Side pot 1: $0.80 between UTG+1, MP2, MP3 and daeyeth, won by daeyeth
Side pot 2: $1.17 between UTG+1, MP3 and daeyeth, won by daeyeth
Side pot 3: $2.68 between UTG+1 and daeyeth, won by daeyeth

Results:
Button had 8, 10 (high card, King).
daeyeth had Q, Q (one pair, Queens).
UTG+1 had A, 9 (one pair, nines).
MP2 had A, Q (high card, Ace).
MP3 had J, 9 (one pair, nines).
Outcome: daeyeth won $11.09
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Extremophile
Old 11-04-2009, 10:15 AM #111 (permalink)  
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Extremophile
whoa! I guess this is the first time I see 5 people going all in in cash games lol.
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norman
Old 11-04-2009, 03:37 PM #112 (permalink)  
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norman
not necessarily a bad play as your opponents may have hole cards that interfere with each other's outs. The extreme example is that they all hold AK. You can now only be beaten by flushes and straights.
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tugger
Old 11-06-2009, 01:35 AM #113 (permalink)  
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tugger
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($2.24)
Hero (MP2) ($2.30)
CO ($2)
Button ($2)
SB ($2.58)
OP (BB) ($2.90)
UTG ($1.20)
UTG+1 ($1)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4, 4
UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.02, 2 folds, SB calls $0.01, OP checks

Flop: ($0.08) 4, 10, 2 (4 players)
SB checks, OP bets $0.08, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.24, 1 fold, OP calls $0.16

Turn: ($0.56) 9 (2 players)
OP bets $0.24, Hero raises to $1, OP raises to $2.64 (All-In), Hero calls $1.04 (All-In)

River: ($4.64) K (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $4.64 | Rake: $0.20


I felt sorry for you when you flipped over T2...
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daeyeth
Old 11-06-2009, 08:13 PM #114 (permalink)  
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daeyeth
er, did you post in the wrong thread accidentally?
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daeyeth
Old 11-06-2009, 08:49 PM #115 (permalink)  
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daeyeth
Ooooh nm, that's a hand I was in. Damn dude, post some context next time. Don't just post a mistake I've done without adding any advice, that's petty and hurts my pride. I believe it's been long established that, yea, I did indeed start playing almost month ago (damn, been that long already huh)

Was that you in that hand? Sorry if you said hi or something, I was playing waaaay too many tables (8) lol. I came out even that night, amazingly, but I was making far too many dumb moves.

Damn garbage BB hand got me in trouble. In that hand, I should of remembered one of my notes: play two pair just like TPTK and fold it when you should. I was putting the raiser on an overpair but I should of realized that JJ+ probably would of raised it pre and any other pocket pair obviously would of hit their set.
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tugger
Old 11-07-2009, 01:02 AM #116 (permalink)  
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tugger
Quote:
Originally Posted by daeyeth
Ooooh nm, that's a hand I was in. Damn dude, post some context next time. Don't just post a mistake I've done without adding any advice, that's petty and hurts my pride. I believe it's been long established that, yea, I did indeed start playing almost month ago (damn, been that long already huh)

Was that you in that hand? Sorry if you said hi or something, I was playing waaaay too many tables (8) lol. I came out even that night, amazingly, but I was making far too many dumb moves.

Damn garbage BB hand got me in trouble. In that hand, I should of remembered one of my notes: play two pair just like TPTK and fold it when you should. I was putting the raiser on an overpair but I should of realized that JJ+ probably would of raised it pre and any other pocket pair obviously would of hit their set.
Haha yes, that was me who raided you with a set of fours. If only I raised pre flop, huh? This is actually the main reason I don't like raising with small pairs... if I flop a set, I want others to hit the flop too! I want as many hands to see that flop to increase the chances of someone else hitting... and that includes the big blind.

Can you fold T2 here? Maybe if you have a solid read, if you know I'm only likely to have a set here, but could I have overpair? I'm going to raise JJ+ here for sure, so it's no overpair. There's not a lot losing to T2 that I could play so aggressively that I would limp with. Perhaps 35 diamonds and 24s, and maybe nut flush draw if I felt you had a hand I could make you fold. AT is calling the turn, not raising.

It was either fold at the turn or shove, so I don't think you did so bad. At 2nl, a lot of people will flip over AT and sometimes worse here. I won't. I hope you made a note!
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daeyeth
Old 11-07-2009, 12:23 PM #117 (permalink)  
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daeyeth
GodDAMN, what a nasty nasty day, just some disgusting bad beats. The worst one was me having a full #@$%ing house with my pocket aces and I'm beat by quad 99s. I really hate how everybody is so goddamn loose preflop in micros. Yeah whatever, they'll lose money in the long run but why would I care about that 'cuz they're not losing to me damn it!
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LawDude
Old 11-10-2009, 07:33 PM #118 (permalink)  
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LawDude
This is a point we limit players have pounded into our head, and it goes for no limit just as well. As you move up in limits, your opponents will be better, which makes it harder to beat the game simply by being nitty and staying out of spots that will cost bad players a ton of money. Rather, you have to start pursuing thin value edges. Things like getting the most money out of your draws, maximizing your fold equity, and making sure you maximize value on your monsters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Are you implying that limping with Aces is -EV? Because it's not.. You have the best hand obviously. It's just not as +EV as raising with them. Which is along the same lines as open shoving. Yes, obviously it's +EV, but it's not the most +EV play we can make, and therefore it doesn't maximize the value we get, thus earning us the most money. In poker, you shouldn't try to settle for just +EV plays. You should settle to make the most +EV decision possible.

I'm not knocking your advice because it was wrong, and I don't think most people were. It was just the fact that you knew it wasn't the best way, but chose to play it that way anyways, then passing it along to others.

If given the choice between a +EV play, a Breakeven play, or a -EV play, any smart individual will take the +EV play. Logic will show that if given a choice between a +EV play that will yield you $1 on average, and a +EV play that will yield you $20 on average, that any smart individual will take the play that returns the most profit on average ($20 decision). So trying to find those spots where we are making +EV players, but still missing value, and correcting it, so we are maximizing our value and earning the most, is what will improve an individual's winrate.
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