Operation Winning is a Habit

but but but you didn't even have bottom set. Fist pump.

those other hands had flush draws, chopper.

Originally Posted by kmind

but but but you didn't even have bottom set. Fist pump.

those other hands had flush draws, chopper.

so, you are saying you are going to stick it in when everyone else and their brother had already done so w/ K6s? like i said, i can sort of see AJs doing this, but AT THESE SMALL STAKES, you dont need to play such margins. save the money and stick it in when you know you have the best of it. the money isnt hard to come by down here....AJs just added to his variance, imo. i know he thought he had "odds," but hellmuth would have "waited for a better spot," too.

you have to think theres a huge chance of a set in there with the action. and, if there is, you dont have the equity for your push to be strictly for value.

i mean the action went....POT, POT, POT, SHOVE, SHOVE...now how the hell do you think your naked flush draws are good vs this many players? AJs is calling $19.90 into $49. he is only getting 2.5:1 on his call. so, actually, he stuck it in bad. hell, even K6 had better odds...he had 4:1.

cant we agree that that is ALL they had....flush draws. they didnt have a pair. they dont have the slightest chance of being "best" to this point. all they have is a draw....and the only one with proper odds has the 2nd nut draw.

Originally Posted by Muzzard

lol @ cringing here

and, the reason for "cringing" is because you KNOW there are flush draws out. sure, you have equity, but you are still....once you see the size of this pot...saying, "ONE TIME, BABY!!!! ONE TIME."

robb is the only one that played this hand well/correctly.

Originally Posted by kmind

but but but you didn't even have bottom set. Fist pump.

LoL. Missed that. I was SOOOOOOO hovering on the all-in button! Guess I lost my head in the middle of all the fist pumpin!!

No cringe. I checked the equity on the flop - I've got like 75%, with 1%, 23% and 1% for K-high flush, A-high flush and TPTK respectively. Set of T's is my only worry.

chopper - sorry. I meant it in the fact that, well, they did have "outs". I wasn't sure if you noticed it but it's clear now you did. I just thought you missed it the first time and thought they were blindly sticking money in. Trust me, they played their hands horribly, no doubting that. I guess I am just bitter after seeing the crap day in and day out that people have in stakes up to at least 200nl (92s > KK today) and wanted to make sure everyone knows people are stupid and play very -EV hands preflop and improper calls postflop. It just is an extra help to widen their range making this a fist pump. Plus they could have an overpair/TP. Much sir

robb - sick day man but I'm not surprised. Keep it up!

74% equity all in on a 500+bb pot is awesome

Originally Posted by kmind

people are stupid and play very -EV hands preflop and improper calls postflop. It just is an extra help to widen their range making this a fist pump. Plus they could have an overpair/TP. Much sir

robb - sick day man but I'm not surprised. Keep it up!

Good point on wide ranges - jeez this f**kers are dumb!!

Final tally is +11 BI on 1975 hands, or 27 ptBB/100. Another sick day and even this bankroll nit will be rolled for 25nl.

My current target for moving up is when I get my rakeback in November. If I don't donk off my roll before then, I'll be ready to tackle 25nl with $800+ behind.

Originally Posted by kmind

chopper - sorry.

no worries, todd...lol. i usually cant read a HH. hell, this time i had to go back to it to get specific. it was just the "gut" that went, "holy crap those guys were awful." i think most of us rarely get that detailed in calcs anymore.

and, if you guys think THOSE plays are awful, i suggest dabbling with the Double or Nothings going on right now. you will see some off-the-wall shit before you realize its not as bad (equity-wise) as it seems once the cards flip over.

anyway, carry on ROBBBBBBBBB.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by Muzzard

lol 400bbs wheeeeeeeeeeee, ni han

thx, i was a little uncomfortable playing bottom set there,

ummmm 4>3 dude

Originally Posted by XTR1000

Sweet! I cant understand how you´re still grinding 10nl. Even a blind man sees, that theres already enough wisdom stored in your head to wtfpwn much higher steaks. So go ahead, build that roll and name it "Moving Up Is A Habit"

Good luck buddy and keep this awesome thread going!

I really just lost my way in poker for six months, not playing very many hands, and decimating my roll with "under-rolled" shots at 25nl when my game wasn't sharp. I played about 50k hands from march to august, some months (June) less than 5k.

My results for 55k hands during that time was +0.3 ptBB/100. At FREAKIN' 10nl!! Well, hell, at least it was positive. And there was rakeback/bonuses.

Then BJsaust (Ben) kicked me in the arse (details in this thread: What do when someone says you suck at poker). Best thing that happened to my poker game was getting called out, looking at my lifetime poker graphs (so I could post some sh!t about how I didn't really suck), and then realizing...my game has gone all to hell. I really do suck at poker.

But I started workin' hard and winnin'. And I'm within a month or so (if I can get some hands in) of moving up. That little heater yesterday has me up to 12 ptBB/100 over my last 15k, but I was hanging tough at 7 ptBB/100 before that, even after a couple k hands of being card dead and being dealt coolers. The heater more than the made up for it, but what I'm realizing is that 10nl ought to be pwn'd for 10+ ptBB/100 - if you're thinking and playing well. You've got bigtime leaks in your game if you play 80k hands of 10nl at 4 ptBB/100.

Ran a half marathon today. Well...shuffled, more like. Damn, I need to get fit. But I didn't stop to walk. Drove back home (2.5 hours) with the twins and my buddy from work who ran, too. Had to stop 4 times for bathroom breaks - jeez!! (4 yr olds)

Dunno if I'll play pokah tonight. That'll depend on whether or not I feel like I can play my A+ game. I'm off physically, for sure, but we'll see.

I'm getting better at playing medium/weak holdings passively, controlling the pot, and picking off river bluffs. The following hand was almost ridiculously simple for most of y'all, but it was a basic poker skill I was lacking. Villain was 22/1/2.6 with a 43% W$SD stat. Check behind to stay out of trouble, pick up an extra 5bb's when he bluffs so obviously at the river.

Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($13.05)
UTG ($8.49)
Hero (MP) ($17.99)
CO ($13.81)
Button ($1.48)
SB ($1.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9, 9
Jay4991 calls $0.10 (All-In), Hero raises to $0.45, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.15) 4, 10, 2 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Jay4991 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.15) Q (3 players, 2 all-in)
Jay4991 checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.15) 5 (3 players, 3 all-in)
Jay4991 bets $0.50 (All-In), Hero calls $0.50

Total pot: $2.15 | Rake: $0.10


I used to blast away with a cbet. This villain would have laid it down on the flop had I cbet, so this line certainly out-performed my old line. I think that will be true for most reasonable aggressive villains. Gotta think about how to attack these type hands against more passive ones.

Decided to play. Got in an easy 450 hands, up 1.3 BI. I almost timed out on this, but villain was loose and aggressive preflop (didn't have 4bet, but he 3bet like 20% over 120 hands).

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($24.29)
UTG 1 ($9.65)
CO ($20.97)
BTN ($11.80)
Hero ($10.28)
BB ($12.29)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO calls $0.10, BTN raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1.10, 1 fold, CO folds, BTN goes all-in $11.50, Hero goes all-in $9.18

Flop: ($22.28, 2 players)

Turn: ($22.28, 2 players)

River: ($22.28, 2 players)

Final Pot: $22.28
BTN shows:
Hero shows:

BTN wins $1.52 ( lost -$10.28 )
Hero wins $19.73 ( won $9.45 )
CO lost -$0.10


My only big loss was AQs where effective stacks (70bb's) were about the size of the pot, so I shoved on the turn w/ QT8x (2 of my suit). Checked later, had 43% equity against T8o (yes, i raised pre - lol).

I played fewer tables tonight (since I was beat up physically), but my mind seemed with it. I started with 3 - 4, then ramped up to 6, eased back down. Thought I played at least my A- game, possibly better. I'm about 12 BI's from a shot at 25nl. Woo-hoo!!

Another 600 hands, another +4 BI at 10nl. LoL, I'm 7 BI away from $800, when I will take a crack at 25nl. These donks seem like they're trying to move me up in 3 days or less

I was running well in the RakeTheRake 5k freeroll at Absolute until my 66 went up against J9s - and lost. I had the guy covered, but I was down to M = 3, so I got it all in (same guy) w/ A5 against 77. Bye, bye.

I'm starting to plan my assault on 25nl. I think the key is to play for a entire month (rakeback to rakeback) at breakeven or better. I've always failed to last until the rakeback helped even out the rough spots. Even if I only play a few k hands that month, I need to be playin' my A game every session. I think that if I do that, the rakeback will make me more than positive. Don't tilt and spew 3 BI a coupla times like before.

Just a month's worth of confidence at 25nl should do it, help turn things around. So I'm thinkin that if I start out with 32 BI, I should have plenty of roll to live through the rough patches, and I'll have time build my game and my confidence. I don't think I'm that far away from a winning game at 25nl, I just need patience and discipline.

Patience and discipline - that's the main reason I'm waiting until I have $800 (instead of the rather nitty $650 spoon suggests), just practice patience and discipline. If my game really is pwn'ing 10nl, I'll be there soon. Just a few k more hands of practice and confidence before I move up.

Got tilty at the end of today's 3rd session. It's Sunday night, and everyone's playing loose and crazy. I got a bit too loose and crazy myself. Stopped for a few. If I can't play better, I'm done for the night.

I'm up 4 BI over 1.2k hands today. Should be up about 5, tho, without a coupla bad calls. I thought I did well earlier today, cut back to 2 - 4 tables for most of the day since my mind was movin' a bit slooooooowwww. I crank up a coupla, see if I can play.

I'm 8 BI's from 25nl - weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :P

Finished up half a BI after 800 hands. I was up 2 BI after 200. I hit some massive coolers, but the reason I'm posting is that I didn't tilt. I played a couple hands where I got wobbly, but I sat out for a few minutes to get my head back in the game, then played well, imo.

I'm getting TONS better at reading myself, getting away from the computer when I'm too shot to play.

After the typical cooler/bad beats, nut flush vs. straight flush, underset, blah, blah, and after admitting I got dealt at least one cooler my way, I felt the session was solid. I kept playing well despite the rough patches. Only 8 BI left until 25nl.

Another 1k hands of 10nl, another 2.5 BI. I've got $750 rolled now. Depending upon how many hands I get in this week, and depending upon how I run, I might be taking a shot at 25nl by the weekend. I've played a good bit this month, so I have about $50 in rakeback for the month. That will provide a 2 BI boost about two weeks from now, so hopefully that will help even out the ups and downs.

Can't wait for tonight's session...still running at 9+ ptBB/100 for last 20k hands since Bjsaust's little "encouragement." Maybe it's not all positive variance. Maybe I'm learning to pwn this level.

I am now rolled for 25nl!! Woo-hoo!! I will updating my progress here. I'm also working on my discipline. But life should be fun now that I'm really ready for moving up.

congrats robb. now steamroll 25nl ldo

Originally Posted by Robb

I am now rolled for 25nl!! Woo-hoo!! I will updating my progress here. I'm also working on my discipline. But life should be fun now that I'm really ready for moving up.

nice work
and this time you're playing smart.
Moving up again at br = ?? I recommend $2k.

1k hands at 25nl, I'm +EV, but down 2 BI. But I haven't played really solid. Here's 5e hands from ones I'm reviewing. Anyone's thoughts on any of them would be appreciated. Overall, I think I've played my A- game, at least, and quit when I wasn't able to instead of tilting and donking off a wad of cash.

Hand 1: villain is 35/4/1.9 over 600 hands. I completely misread the min-raise pre. On the turn, I've gotta realize I have NO fold equity.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($20.67)
UTG 1 ($31.26)
CO ($21.73)
Hero ($30.39)
SB ($9.50)
BB ($24.88)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.85

Flop: ($2.55, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2.05, CO calls $2.05

Turn: ($6.65, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $5.15, CO goes all-in $18.58, $13.43 to Hero ($22.09)?


Hand 2: Villain UTG is 56/1/3 over 90 hands. I tried to raise big enough to fold him out and isolate the LP shortie who's tilting - I want his stack. The hand turns backwards on me. I read villain for a draw, so I tried to get all the chips in on the flop. Gotta realize these preflop stations CAN'T be scared off a hand.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($10.50)
UTG 1 ($6.57)
CO ($5.00)
BTN ($12.45)
SB ($51.91)
Hero ($38.01)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO raises to $1.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $4.25, UTG calls $4, CO folds

Flop: ($9.70, 2 players)
Hero bets $6.50, UTG goes all-in $6.25

Turn: ($22.45, 2 players)

River: ($22.45, 2 players)

Final Pot: $22.45
Hero shows:
UTG shows:


Hand 3: BTN is 16/8/1.8 over 310 hands. This is a pretty obvious fold, given the flop. Gotta be able to get away from overs here, imo.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($2.93)
UTG 1 ($17.08)
Hero ($25.35)
BTN ($26.87)
SB ($4.50)
BB ($10.57)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is CO
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.10, BTN calls $1.10, 1 fold, BB calls $0.85, UTG calls $0.85

Flop: ($4.50, 4 players)
BB bets $1, UTG goes all-in $1.83, Hero raises to $5.50, BTN calls $5.50, BB folds

Turn: ($18.33, 3 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $18.33, $18.33 to Hero ($18.75)?


Hand 4: Villain in SB is 75/49/3 over 35 hands. I think we're both playing woeful cards, here. I went in the tank over this one, but I think we're ahead enough to call. In hindsight, tho', against a better villain we maybe need to just call the river, instead of raising, to avoid having to make a decision on an all-in with so many draws in that beat ours.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($10.05)
CO ($77.60)
BTN ($15.47)
SB ($40.38)
Hero ($24.90)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, BTN calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.75, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($0.75, 3 players)
SB bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, BTN folds

River: ($2.25, 2 players)
SB bets $2.25, Hero raises to $10, SB raises to $32.25, $13.9 to Hero ($13.9)?


Hand 5: Same villain from last hand: 75/49/3 over 35 hands. Two hands afterward. I'm pretty proud of this one (he was tilting, playing very awkwardly, and there were timing tells/chat I won't go into - just show results so you can see I wasn't flippin' insane with my all-in shove.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($19.96)
CO ($9.48)
Hero ($27.46)
SB ($4.81)
BB ($79.40)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is BTN
UTG raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, UTG calls $2.50

Flop: ($8.35, 2 players)
UTG bets $9.50, Hero goes all-in $23.46, UTG goes all-in $6.46

Turn: ($47.77, 2 players)

River: ($47.77, 2 players)

Final Pot: $47.77
UTG shows:
Hero shows:

UTG wins $38.67 ( won $18.71 )
Hero wins $7.50 ( lost -$19.96 )


Hand 6: Another overpair in a 3bet pot. I've gotta be able to let these go. Villain is 24/1/1.1 over 60 hands. I know it's too few hands, but he was 70% W$wSF and 100% W$SD. After the turn, I'm behind every possible hand he can have except AK and AQs, neither of which this player is up to bluffing with, amiright?

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($8.30)
UTG 1 ($27.99)
CO ($50.89)
Hero ($21.65)
SB ($11.54)
BB ($46.69)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, CO raises to $1, Hero raises to $3.35, 2 folds, CO calls $2.35

Flop: ($7.05, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $5.02, CO raises to $20.79, $13.28 to Hero ($13.28)?

Up half a BI today in a short session during the kids' naptime (they aren't napping, so I quit playin' and they'll be up soon, it seems . Here's more the play I'm talking about with overs.

Villain is 31/11/2 over 525 hands. I think I'm well ahead.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.05)
UTG 1 ($16.97)
CO ($17.90)
Hero ($27.44)
SB ($8.74)
BB ($20.33)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN
1 fold, UTG 1 raises to $0.85, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.25, 2 folds, UTG 1 calls $1.40

Flop: ($4.85, 2 players)
UTG 1 bets $4.85, $4.85 to Hero ($25.19)?

Hand 1: A limp call from someone with a really wide gap between their PFR and VP$IP usually includes a lot of broadways and pocket pairs. You're getting something like 2:1 or slightly better on a call so you need more than 33% equity to call rah rah rah. To put things in perspective, you have 31.4% equity against a range of just {KJ, KT, 77}, so I think it's an easy call since his range is probably not quite that narrow.

Hand 2: The flop is pretty bad since you're never getting better to fold but you could induce worse to shove if you checked.

Hand 3: I think you need to decide on the flop if you're going to be cool with stacking off or not. If you're not then calling the flop for pot control is an option since you're obviously not folding the flop.

Hand 4: There are a lot of two pairs and sets out there that you beat so it's like insta-snapcall for me. For his line to be a straight I think he would usually have to have 76?

Hand 5: If you think he's folding enough preflop to make your 3-bet bluff profitable then it's fine, but otherwise I'd prefer to call pre and play heads up against an idiot in a high-spr situation.

Hand 6: Big overpairs in pots with SPRs < 3 are the nuts.

Hand 7: Same thing as hand 6.

Thanks, spoony!!

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

A limp call from someone with a really wide gap between their PFR and VP$IP usually includes a lot of broadways and pocket pairs.

A "cut out and keep rule of thumb."

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Hand 5: If you think he's folding enough preflop to make your 3-bet bluff profitable then it's fine, but otherwise I'd prefer to call pre and play heads up against an idiot in a high-spr situation.

Hand 6: Big overpairs in pots with SPRs < 3 are the nuts.

Hand 7: Same thing as hand 6.

Thanks w/ spr advice on overpairs. I feel like I stack off too easy, get too far ahead of myself.

My 25nl play this weekend was Halloween appropriate - sweet at times, scary at others. In round terms, here's how it went.

Thursday: 1k hands, +2BI
Friday: 2k hands, - 3BI
Saturday (early): 1k hands, +1BI
Saturday (late): 2k hands, - 5BI !!!
Sunday: 1k hands, +1.5BI
Monday: 0.2k hands, +1BI

I'm not really tracking my bankroll right now. I feel like when I play my A game I'm winning. There's variance, and it's easy to get too results oriented. But it seems like I'm winning.

The late Saturday session was woeful. I had a maniac on my left (I know, LEAVE THE FREAKIN' TABLE, DUMBASS!!), and I dumped 3+ BI to him in like 20 hands. AK vs. K6 where we both made straights - his was 6-high, mine was 5-high. 74o against my A5s blind steal - he flopped trips, and turned the boat. I had TPNK and stacked off. I mean, seriously, he was playing 85/35/4 maniac, so I thought TPNK was the nuts. I had been looking for a place to make my stand. I think maybe next time I'll take a stand by standing up from the table and finding one where I'm on his left.

I got tilty, took a break, then played OK. But I got AA cracked and just quit. I wasn't spewing. But I wasn't playing with any confidence. Maybe playing my B+ game, but struggling to keep from mega-tilt.

Again, I'm still not really checking my bankroll status. I feel like just focusing on playing each hand well is the most vital thing right now. When I'm focused and feelin' confident, I seem to be playin' winning poker. And I have plenty of BI's behind me right now, so I'm not worried about that.

After analyzing my start through Saturday, I realized that I'm struggling with the higher levels of aggression at 25nl. There's more flop raises and check/raises, more preflop 3betting. I love using those tactics at 10nl because it generally folds out the competition. You can 3bet light and take it down on the flop with a cbet. Or you can raise well-chosen flop cbets and to profit against the serial cbot-types.

Now, maybe someone with more experience and confidence could profit at 25nl playing as aggressively as I do at 10nl. But I'm struggling. So let's think about it mathematically - strategically. If I want to keep my game aggressive but make life simpler, I can just tighten up my opening requirements. Instead of 22/16, I can play more like 19/15 or even tighter, perhaps (this is 6max, btw). That will bring the overall quality of my holdings up and make my aggression harder for opponents to deal with.

I also have made this a rule: before I act on the flop, think about ranges and decide whether I'm willing to felt it. If not, I have an exit strategy, whether it's bet/fold, or check/call then check/fold, etc. If I decide I am willing to felt it, I take the action that seems likely to maximize EV. Now, things can always happen on the turn that really stir up the ranges so that I'm thinking differently about the hand, but it helps to have some kind of plan for how much heat this holding can take.

One line that I've added for "can't stand much heat" hands is the "check-raise and then done" line. I'm in the process of thinking about how to add some monsters into that line's range and then expanding how often I use it to fight back with on medium-strength hands.

I know that folks like fnord would say to let them keep contributing chips if I'm ahead. That's true. But when I'm pretty sure that I'm ahead, the check-raise is a line that these villains seem to have trouble dealing with. By playing most medium-strength hands that way, it leaves my standard cbets pretty polarized with lots of good TPTK hands and better at the top along with premium hands that missed the flop but still have potential.

I know it's not perfect, but I think it's a c0herent "shift" in approach that will help me play comfortably and confidently at 25nl until things stabilize. Some of the "new level" learning is just a "language acquisition," learning what these players mean when they make various bets. Learning when to attack and when to fold. I think this approach will help me identify those spots, and then I can begin using a better overall postflop strategy.

P. S. I really enjoy how fast the rakeback and bonuses accumulate at 25nl. Woo-hoo!!

Well...I'm preparing for a HUGE pokah week. My wife took our 3 kids to visit her great aunt in TN, about 5 hours away, then to NC to see her brother. They'll be gone all week, and while I'll miss them A TON I get to play poker for hours every night this week. Hell...I'm thinking of blowing off work to go play right now :P

I've got some work stuff pretty late tonight, tho...probably buy some beer and play 2nl for an hour or two while I work some irritating kinks out of my HUD setup and tweak my postflop strategy to include less mindless cbetting, and more targeted check/raising. But it'll be fun.

I pretty much agree with Spoons thoughts.

One point is that you seem to be making your decisions at the wrong time. Take hand 4. Your decision isnt whether to call his 3-bet shove on the river, your decision is whether to raise him on the river. You've mentioned needing to bare in mind previous action, and thats true, but you also need to start considering possible future actions in your thought processes.

Hand 1 and 6 are good examples. If you're going to bet with your overpairs, you need to consider what happens if they call or raise before betting. Take this into consideration when sizing your bets as well. Say for instance in hand 1, you probably want to bet turn because of how drawy it is, but you're well aware he may have hit a straight or 2 pair now. You dont actually need to bet much to give him bad odds here. Something like $3.50 - $4 is fine if you just want him to make a mistake by calling with a draw or 1P, IF you think he only raises with 2P or better. That way you get away cheaper if he does raise you.

Also look at SPR. In hand 1 if he calls your raise its a $16 pot and he only has $12 behind, that makes his push less than a PSB. So now you've setup a situation where you need to call $13 into a $30 pot and you're not sure if you should call? If you dont think you're good more than 1:3 here, then you shouldnt be betting in the first place.

Just some stuff to think about.

Dont over react to the aggression. Its easy to think that slightly more aggression = a lot more aggression, just because you're not used to seeing it. People will float a little more, they'll 3-bet a bit more rather than just call from the blinds, but other than that you wont see a lot.

Main thing I noticed was the call flop, bet turn if you check line. Just balance things up by checking some TP type hands on turn and maybe c/r turn a bit with draws and nut hands if you notice someone doing it a fair bit. Main thing again though, is dont overadjust.

This...

Originally Posted by Robb

I also have made this a rule: before I act on the flop, think about ranges and decide whether I'm willing to felt it. If not, I have an exit strategy, whether it's bet/fold, or check/call then check/fold, etc. If I decide I am willing to felt it, I take the action that seems likely to maximize EV. Now, things can always happen on the turn that really stir up the ranges so that I'm thinking differently about the hand, but it helps to have some kind of plan for how much heat this holding can take.

Wasn't stated as well as this...

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I pretty much agree with Spoons thoughts.

One point is that you seem to be making your decisions at the wrong time. Take hand 4. Your decision isnt whether to call his 3-bet shove on the river, your decision is whether to raise him on the river. You've mentioned needing to bare in mind previous action, and thats true, but you also need to start considering possible future actions in your thought processes.

Hand 1 and 6 are good examples. If you're going to bet with your overpairs, you need to consider what happens if they call or raise before betting. Take this into consideration when sizing your bets as well. Say for instance in hand 1, you probably want to bet turn because of how drawy it is, but you're well aware he may have hit a straight or 2 pair now. You dont actually need to bet much to give him bad odds here. Something like $3.50 - $4 is fine if you just want him to make a mistake by calling with a draw or 1P, IF you think he only raises with 2P or better. That way you get away cheaper if he does raise you.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Also look at SPR. In hand 1 if he calls your raise its a $16 pot and he only has $12 behind, that makes his push less than a PSB. So now you've setup a situation where you need to call $13 into a $30 pot and you're not sure if you should call? If you dont think you're good more than 1:3 here, then you shouldnt be betting in the first place..

Would someone point me to the SPR posts/threads/books/articles. It's a major area of weakness in my theoretical knowledge - but I can't find a good summary of the key points. Everyone seems to know about it but me. I would love to see an SPR key points thread in the BC. As a matter of fact, I think I'll suggest it.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Also look at SPR. In hand 1 if he calls your raise its a $16 pot and he only has $12 behind, that makes his push less than a PSB. So now you've setup a situation where you need to call $13 into a $30 pot and you're not sure if you should call? If you dont think you're good more than 1:3 here, then you shouldnt be betting in the first place..

Would someone point me to the SPR posts/threads/books/articles. It's a major area of weakness in my theoretical knowledge - but I can't find a good summary of the key points. Everyone seems to know about it but me. I would love to see an SPR key points thread in the BC. As a matter of fact, I think I'll suggest it.

It's discussed in Pro NL HE

It's Stack to pot ratio. Basically, if it's 4 then post flop you can expect a bet and a raise will get it all-in. 1SPR means one bet is all-in, 10SPR requires 3 bets or raises.

see flop, pot is 1
bet/call (you put in 1)
pot is 3
bet/call (you put in 3)
pot is 9
(you put in last 6)

Originally Posted by swiggidy

It's discussed in Pro NL HE

It's Stack to pot ratio. Basically, if it's 4 then post flop you can expect a bet and a raise will get it all-in. 1SPR means one bet is all-in, 10SPR requires 3 bets or raises.

see flop, pot is 1
bet/call (you put in 1)
pot is 3
bet/call (you put in 3)
pot is 9
(you put in last 6)

Thanks swiggidy and others. I'll look up Pro NL HE.

I know what spr basically is, but I see guys like Sarbox saying "AK likes an SPR of ___ to ____ postflop so I'm 3betting x", and spoon saying "premium pp's are the nuts postflop with SPR < 3, and fnord saying "think about spr" in every third BC thread. I've thought and tried to follow, but optimizing my play for spr is not something I've grasped at all, yet. I'd like to get a real handle on it. If I see someone's basic description and do a bit of work, I think I'll be able to generalize/apply to my game pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by Robb

I know what spr basically is, but I see guys like Sarbox saying "AK likes an SPR of ___ to ____ postflop so I'm 3betting x", and spoon saying "premium pp's are the nuts postflop with SPR < 3, and fnord saying "think about spr" in every third BC thread. I've thought and tried to follow, but optimizing my play for spr is not something I've grasped at all, yet. I'd like to get a real handle on it. If I see someone's basic description and do a bit of work, I think I'll be able to generalize/apply to my game pretty quickly.

Yeah, it's covered in the book a lot. It's kind of a way to play ahead, and merges pre-flop thinking with how you're going to play post-flop.

So the <3 thing is just saying, if you get to a Q27 flop, or even 678 with KK. There is $10 in the pot and you have $30 behind you're not folding (unless you have an uber nit read).

Laregly you're looking at your PF hand and thinking what its most likely to hit, and what SPR you'd be happy with that hand.

So for instance AK whilst a good hand, is most likely to hit TPTK on the flop. If we have an SPR of say 10 ($9 pot with $90 behind) we're probably not very happy about getting our stack in. If on the other hand we have an SPR of 4 ($22 pot with $88 behind) we start to feel better about it. To put that into practise, say we have AK in BB and theres a $3 bet from btn and SB calls, with $100 effective stacks. If we call we have $9 pot and $97 behind. On the other hand, if we raise to $14 and get one caller, we now have $31 pot and $86 behind. If we flop TPTK in the first example and hit TPTK we're not happy about stacking off, if we hit TPTK in the second example we're wrapped about stacking off.

Just bought pro nlhe at amazon ($17) - expedited shipping was nearly half that So for a single 25nl BI, I have the manual on the way. I wasn't really planning on spewing $$ into amazon.com today, but the second sub-heading under the SPR Intro was this:

A Hand without a Plan

I'm like, they wrote a book for me! Unfortunately, it's true. I feel fnord has it right when he calls 10nl and lower "two street bingo." At 10nl, once they call/raise the flop, all the chips are VERY likely to end up in the middle. At 25nl, there's more to it. Fewer 40bb stacks, more deep-stacked players willing to float the flop, aggress the turn.

As has been pointed out, I don't plan well for the big late decisions with quality preflop/flop betting and bet-sizing. This is aggravated by my obsession with playing too many tables for my mental bandwidth. On the flop, I need to take my time, watch the stacks, think about ranges and make an astute bet.

I can fix the too-many-tables-at-once thing with discipline. I can fix the playing-when-tired thing. I'm counting on the book to help with have-plans-for-hands thing. Table of contents seemed to be pretty math-based theory, which I'll like and want to apply right away. Wish I had this book a while ago...

A discipline post.

I play too many (6max) tables at once. But I'm better. I think 3 - 5 is about right for me at 25nl, more if they're all "slow" tables. I can play 6 slow ones if I'm really switched on and thinking well. Anytime, 7+ is spew.

Patience, grasshopper. I know that it's more important to log 10k high-quality hands in the next 3 months than it is to log 10k hands in the next 3 days. If I'm playing well, the hands will come and the monies, too.

About not playing tired. Got home last night after a brutal day at work - didn't eat all day 'til 8 PM. Grabbed some food, a beer and a shower. (Fam's out of town - not my normal routine.) I walked to the computer knowing 25nl wasn't even a bad idea - it would have been a horrible one. So I cranked up some 10nl tables...

...

...

and then shut them all down. Not even worth it. Sure, I can play my B game at 10nl and still win a bit, but why spew at 10nl with my C- game?

I have NOT been finishing each session with hand reviews. I started waiting for 2 - 3 sessions (since several in a row were only 200 hands). Then 4 sessions...gotta stop that. If it's a short session, then reviewing 3 - 5 HH's won't take long. I think the key is quit sooner while I still have one or two working brain cells to think about what mistakes I made.

Waiting to study HH's is silly, imo. I need to reinforce whatever I can learn right away, while the thoughts about the individual hands are still somewhat clearly remembered. Then I can match the lesson with the mistake that caused it: too many tables causing too little time to think, bad bet-sizing due to a distraction I could have avoided, whatever.

There. I'm playing the best poker of my life which is a low bar to clear. But baby steps will eventually get me there.

People dont seem to get it. I think its an ego thing. Micro stakes is for learning to play poker. You dont learn playing 8+ tables at a time. Get to 100nl and then worry about maximising earn per hour or whatever. Play enough tables that you can still think and make proper decisions. If you're into robot mode, you're not thinking.

Heck, my best $/hr has come 2-tabling. People way underestimate the value of proper reads v's stats. I was thinking about this just last night. Theres a big difference between '80% c-bet' and 'cbets almost all the time, but less than half pot if he misses, 2/3 pot with TP and full pot with better than TP' type reads. Stats dont give you that kind of info, you need to be able to pay attention.


PNLHE is good, but just be wary of getting too passive because of it. You're still playing micros, people still stack off too light, people do chase draws with bad odds (resulting in big pots), stuff like that. Its a tool, not the be all and end all of poker strategy. That said, you should enjoy it and have some eye opening moments reading it, along with a few "slap your forehead and say 'wtf, I should have known that already'" moments.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

People dont seem to get it. I think its an ego thing. Play enough tables that you can still think and make proper decisions. If you're into robot mode, you're not thinking.

Heck, my best $/hr has come 2-tabling.

I played 4 - 5 tables to start, then dropped back to 3. Played just over 1k hands and +3BI. Lesson learned? Probably not forever, but getting closer.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

PNLHE is good, but just be wary of getting too passive because of it. You're still playing micros, people still stack off too light, people do chase draws with bad odds (resulting in big pots), stuff like that. Its a tool, not the be all and end all of poker strategy. That said, you should enjoy it and have some eye opening moments reading it, along with a few "slap your forehead and say 'wtf, I should have known that already'" moments.

Got QQ 4 times, a couple KK's and JJ's, all of which hit as overpairs in fairly big pots. I feel like I played them much better, thinking about SPR and ranges and planning my bets well in advance of the flop action (starting the calculations as the preflop action was winding down since I wasn't massively multitabling). :P

I stacked off with QQ when I raised 4.5bb's behind a limper (about 90bb's) and got the limper to call. Board came 854J rainbow. Cbet check/called, turn bet raised all-in. I called (of course thinking set or 76s). He showed down 76o. Type note. Reload. Didn't think villain's range was all that narrow given his Laggy play over last hour, so meh, not so bad there I think. The others held up and made some monies. I know it's results-oriented, but I feel like I played them well. At least I had a plan.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I was thinking about this just last night. Theres a big difference between '80% c-bet' and 'cbets almost all the time, but less than half pot if he misses, 2/3 pot with TP and full pot with better than TP' type reads. Stats dont give you that kind of info, you need to be able to pay attention.

I've gotten tons better at note-taking. I am in the process of taking notes about 75% of the time I'm playing, typing a few words and checking the HH's while playing the next few hands. I am finding that recording the entire action/position/stacks is helpful when I have to play a big pot. Knowing what he's capable of in a blind vs. blind battle can be really useful info, even on other hands 'cuz it corrects a small sample stat in the HUD.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

PNLHE is good, but just be wary of getting too passive because of it. You're still playing micros, people still stack off too light, people do chase draws with bad odds (resulting in big pots), stuff like that. Its a tool, not the be all and end all of poker strategy. That said, you should enjoy it and have some eye opening moments reading it, along with a few "slap your forehead and say 'wtf, I should have known that already'" moments.

Yeah, I'll probably totally overuse SPR theory for 5k hands until I kinda get it, then balance things out again. I tend to obsess. But I'll learn it, then try to apply it correctly. And anything that gets me planning out hands better is ++++++EV. Even just thinking about it (not really understanding it) last night help me form a plan for how much to bet and raise, and when to just check to keep the pot odds favorable.

Originally Posted by Robb

Thursday: 1k hands, +2BI
Friday: 2k hands, - 3BI
Saturday (early): 1k hands, +1BI
Saturday (late): 2k hands, - 5BI !!!
Sunday: 1k hands, +1.5BI
Monday: 0.2k hands, +1BI

Tuesday AM (after running): 0.2k hands, +0.1BI (rivered, EV was +2BI)
Tuesday PM: off (discipline - don't play tired/stressed)
Wednesday: 1k hands, +3BI

So I'm about break-even with 25nl right now I guess. But I'm not intimidated any more. I'm planning hands, getting the chips in way ahead a lot more than way behind. Making reasonable Hero calls, rarely spewing. If I would have just avoided the tilt-spew Saturday by avoiding the maniac on my left (and getting sucked out on twice - then tilting), I'd be up.

Wow - it's amazing how long it takes to win back the monies from two lousy sessions. Spewed 5BI total (3.5 to maniac - see above - then tilted), then I played another 500 hands wobbly, trying to recover. Since, I feel like I've played solid. Just the right number of tables, reviewing HH's after EVERY session, quit when tired, skip a night when needed, avoid Hero calls, well-timed aggression, plans for hands.

So I dump 7 BI in 1k hands, then play pretty good and get some good poker variance all the while needing 3k hands to win it all back. Why didn't I just quit at the first sign of wobbly play? or when I realized I had a maniac in the seat to my left?

Last night was +3 BI, this morning was +1.5 BI. About 1k hands total. This time I got to the left of a 50/10/5 player deep-stacked on two tables. Took good notes on his play. Grabbed some nice pots with little risk.

Now I'm positive for the month, positive for this shot at 25nl (after the Halloween nightmare), and have 2.5 BI of rakeback headed for my accounts in the next week (won at $60 of rake from 10nl last month).

Win rate for last 3k hands is 12+ ptBB/100, so I know I'm running hot. Still, I'm also playing winning poker. I'm sure variance will even out.

We bad players tend to think of any stretch of 10k hands where we won big as "I'm playing like freakin' Doyle Brunson!!" Then, we lose, it's a focus on 5 big pots where we got it in good and variance happened.

I need to evaluate my game in terms of real quality of decision-making. Yeah, I hit 3 sets last night, and got 2 paid off. I played them well, but fido could have played them just fine, so wtf? I had some coolers and suckouts when I was tilting that made my tilt worse. But I was playing timid, sucky poker.

I'm gaining confidence. It was soooooo cool to have $600 behind even after spewing nearly $200 like a donkey in two days. For me the bankroll isn't about risk of ruin, it's about how many BI I need to just forget the monies and play the game.

This may be LoL for others reading this, I had TT overpair and a villain read that his all-in donk on the flop was light - probably half FD/OESD and half worse. I folded. At 10nl with the same read, I snap it off. At 25nl...just not quite there, yet. I know it's a weak-tight leak, but I think passing the 1k mark in BR will do a lot for my confidence when the whole stack's on the line.

Life good. Poker life good. It's all good.

Won almost 3 BI yesterday, half AM half PM. After a nap, I had about an hour until fam got home, was up to 6 tables, but slowly backed it off as I got tired. Got everyone in bed, then played another hour, mostly 3 tabling and in IRC. I like it IRC a good bit as you can ask opinions on tricky situations right away with your HUD stats up and a good memory for what the players have been doing the last few orbits.

Discipline good. Got tired, played two wobbly hands and shut it down. Still reviewed all my HH's this morning, before playing a money session.

I had a shock - I couldn't do the math on my bankroll. The numbers were too high. :P

I shouldn't type this, 'cuz it'll jinx me, but this game/level isn't that hard. The players are more frisky, sure, but they're not great. I never found a 10nl villain playing well enough to worry about. At 25nl in 8k hands, I've only found 2 I've noted as good.

I think it's sad that I used to believe "these guys at the nosebleeds don't understand the micros since UIEGA." Heck, the only reason we have don't dozens of examples of FTR regs pwn'ing 10nl for 12+ win rates over 40k samples is because, if you're winning that much, you have enough roll to move up. If you're winning that much, you'll be fine at 25nl.

I think I've gotta remember we micros grinders have HUGE holes in our games that are only hard to recognize because they're not getting exploited. As I move up, the players as a group are good enough to expose some more leaks. So you fix 'em, adjust and move on up the learning curve.

I'm also proud that my preflop stats are 19/15 at 25nl. I made a conscious decision to tighten up a bit after my two horrible. Not a major deal, but just enough to stay out of some trouble spots while I'm adjusting to postflop here. I was running at 22/16 my last 20k at 10nl, so I'm just stealing a bit less (mostly from the CO) and checking stacks and stats carefully before I try it. I'm still stealing 29%, so it's fine.

I also experienced some negative variance. Got AA overpair in as 4 to 1 favorite on the turn. Reload, make note. Grind on. Finish session up 1.5 BI over 800 hands. I know the variance will swing against me, but I also feel like my game is good enough to handle it right now.

I made a new filter to work on cbetting in difficult spots. Starting to check a few hands more trying to plug more leaks. I'm not spewing in big pots any more, so it's time to find other areas where I can play better. I think that at 10nl I played each street like it's own game. I need to connect everything, play preflop in ways that setss up good strategic play postflop with a plan for all 3 streets before cbetting/value betting.

Life good. Poker life good. It's all good.

Won almost 3 BI yesterday, half AM half PM. After a nap, I had about an hour until fam got home, was up to 6 tables, but slowly backed it off as I got tired. Got everyone in bed, then played another hour, mostly 3 tabling and in IRC. I like it IRC a good bit as you can ask opinions on tricky situations right away with your HUD stats up and a good memory for what the players have been doing the last few orbits.

Discipline good. Got tired, played two wobbly hands and shut it down. Still reviewed all my HH's this morning, before playing a money session.

I had a shock - I couldn't do the math on my bankroll. The numbers were too high. :P

I shouldn't type this, 'cuz it'll jinx me, but this game/level isn't that hard. The players are more frisky, sure, but they're not great. I never found a 10nl villain playing well enough to worry about. At 25nl in 8k hands, I've only found 2 I've noted as good.

I think it's sad that I used to believe "these guys at the nosebleeds don't understand the micros since UIEGA." Heck, the only reason we have don't dozens of examples of FTR regs pwn'ing 10nl for 12+ win rates over 40k samples is because, if you're winning that much, you have enough roll to move up. If you're winning that much, you'll be fine at 25nl.

I think I've gotta remember we micros grinders have HUGE holes in our games that are only hard to recognize because they're not getting exploited. As I move up, the players as a group are good enough to expose some more leaks. So you fix 'em, adjust and move on up the learning curve.

I'm also proud that my preflop stats are 19/15 at 25nl. I made a conscious decision to tighten up a bit after my two horrible. Not a major deal, but just enough to stay out of some trouble spots while I'm adjusting to postflop here. I was running at 22/16 my last 20k at 10nl, so I'm just stealing a bit less (mostly from the CO) and checking stacks and stats carefully before I try it. I'm still stealing 29%, so it's fine.

I also experienced some negative variance. Got AA overpair in as 4 to 1 favorite on the turn. Reload, make note. Grind on. Finish session up 1.5 BI over 800 hands. I know the variance will swing against me, but I also feel like my game is good enough to handle it right now.

I made a new filter to work on cbetting in difficult spots. Starting to check a few hands more trying to plug more leaks. I'm not spewing in big pots any more, so it's time to find other areas where I can play better. I think that at 10nl I played each street like it's own game. I need to connect everything, play preflop in ways that setss up good strategic play postflop with a plan for all 3 streets before cbetting/value betting.

Life good. Poker life good. It's all good.

Won almost 3 BI yesterday, half AM half PM. After a nap, I had about an hour until fam got home, was up to 6 tables, but slowly backed it off as I got tired. Got everyone in bed, then played another hour, mostly 3 tabling and in IRC. I like it IRC a good bit as you can ask opinions on tricky situations right away with your HUD stats up and a good memory for what the players have been doing the last few orbits.

Discipline good. Got tired, played two wobbly hands and shut it down. Still reviewed all my HH's this morning, before playing a money session.

I had a shock - I couldn't do the math on my bankroll. The numbers were too high. :P

I shouldn't type this, 'cuz it'll jinx me, but this game/level isn't that hard. The players are more frisky, sure, but they're not great. I never found a 10nl villain playing well enough to worry about. At 25nl in 8k hands, I've only found 2 I've noted as good.

I think it's sad that I used to believe "these guys at the nosebleeds don't understand the micros since UIEGA." Heck, the only reason we have don't dozens of examples of FTR regs pwn'ing 10nl for 12+ win rates over 40k samples is because, if you're winning that much, you have enough roll to move up. If you're winning that much, you'll be fine at 25nl.

I think I've gotta remember we micros grinders have HUGE holes in our games that are only hard to recognize because they're not getting exploited. As I move up, the players as a group are good enough to expose some more leaks. So you fix 'em, adjust and move on up the learning curve.

I'm also proud that my preflop stats are 19/15 at 25nl. I made a conscious decision to tighten up a bit after my two horrible. Not a major deal, but just enough to stay out of some trouble spots while I'm adjusting to postflop here. I was running at 22/16 my last 20k at 10nl, so I'm just stealing a bit less (mostly from the CO) and checking stacks and stats carefully before I try it. I'm still stealing 29%, so it's fine.

I also experienced some negative variance. Got AA overpair in as 4 to 1 favorite on the turn. Reload, make note. Grind on. Finish session up 1.5 BI over 800 hands. I know the variance will swing against me, but I also feel like my game is good enough to handle it right now.

I made a new filter to work on cbetting in difficult spots. Starting to check a few hands more trying to plug more leaks. I'm not spewing in big pots any more, so it's time to find other areas where I can play better. I think that at 10nl I played each street like it's own game. I need to connect everything, play preflop in ways that setss up good strategic play postflop with a plan for all 3 streets before cbetting/value betting.

Fun morning. Played 10nl for fun while listening to the Arsenal vs. Man Utd game and watching the kids run around the house. Up a BI there. Played during nap time 25nl, down a bit. About even for the day. Didn't play great, maybe B+. I picked up JJ behind a guy who was 70/50 over 20 hands. He limp/3bets, I call, and the flop's Txx. Flop, I bet the pot showing "strength." Didn't need to, especially not if I wanted to be able to get away from it. He overshoved, I called. He's got AA. I quit after that. I'll make a note when I review HH's tonight.

I thought I got a good bit of sleep last night, but I'm still tired from a rough week. Maybe some 10nl later today to enjoy poker. But I need some energy to play 25nl well.

It's sad that FTR is so dead on the weekends. I guess you young guys have lives and shit. My extra time to work on poker is while you guys are sleeping off hangovers.

Played like CRAP Sunday, down 2 BI dammit. And they were seriously throwin' money away. Too bad I joined in with the FEEEEESH instead of taking some free monies.

Tonight I'll play better. At least last night I quit pretty quick.

Sunday I sucked. So I took Monday off. Played last night and was up almost 2 BI. I blew through that this morning when I couldn't sleep, dumped 2 BI's in my first 10 hands.

I 3 bet PFR + caller w/ AA, PFR ditched and caller...called. I'm thinking set/overs (TT was my best guess) on a 789 rainbow flop. We get it all in, and he shows down 65o. I really didn't have that in his big 3bet flatting range, so meh. His line certainly showed strength, but I don't see I how get away from it.

Then I 3bet JJ on the button, get a caller and 2235 board. We get it all in on the turn (bet, raises, rr, rrai). River's an Ace. He shows 44.

So I'm down 2 BI's but don't really think I've played badly. I keep grinding and get half a BI back.

I'm still positive for this shot at 25nl, and I've played well at 85% of the sessions/hands. So I'm pretty happy.

Even after my first 10 hands of the day cost me 2 BI, I played tonight for a few hundred hands, and I'm up about 1/2 a BI total. I was only down 1.25 BI's after playing pretty well this morning, so variance w/e.

I'm noticing that I'm adjusting to the money difference. Now, when I make a $10 mistake, I treat it like a 40bb mistake instead of a stack-size mistake. It still needs to be fixed, I just don't freak out. And I don't fear making a mistake for $10 during a hand. If my read's off, meh, I tried. If I'm wrong for 40bb's, so what? Learn and move on. So I'm not playing weak-tight.

I'm $40 away from 1k in bankroll, which would be an all-time high.

GL hitting the 1k, its an awesome feeling .

AA hand is tough. Hard not to be results oriented on that one. Nice on the money thing (in terms of BBs). Makes it easyier to play good poker when that clicks.

Originally Posted by Robb

I'm $40 away from 1k in bankroll, which would be an all-time high.

GOGOGOGOGO! The first 1k is always the hardest, the next will come much easier

Thanks, guys. I realized on the way to work this morning that I will get rakeback of $60 sometime in the next week. So just not sucking and I'll see the 1k in a few days.