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Poker Forum |
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| bjsaust |
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Who donks pot for 3 streets with a strong hand? Whilst not specific to these guys (well, not until after showdown), Everest is full of people who think bluffing is poker and poker is bluffing. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| bigred |
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Even if your a high won, I think it's much more +EV just to fold river. |
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LOL OPERATIONS
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| bjsaust |
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Not disagreeing. Hand 1 he 3 barrelled with A high, but his AQ > my AJ. I kinda like Caseys line of shoving over river which folds his A high and PPs I think. Hand 2 he had 77 and donk pot bluffed 3 streets but still beat me. Hand 3 he had A6o and I took the stack. Definately marginal spots. I'm correctly identifying them as bluffs, but getting caught with not a good enough hand to call. I need better lines, and I just dont think call, call, fold is the best option. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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| Havnt played since last update. We're in the middle of our worst heatwave in 100 years atm and I'm suffering a bit (no cooling in the study where I work). Also havnt hit the gym (prop bet hasnt started yet) due to a combination of that and the fact that I havnt been sleeping well so have gotten run down. Woke up this morning with a cold (wtf). Feel like crap, hoping I'm better by Sunday when the prop bet begins. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| kmind |
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| Hey man. Heard about the heat. Let me know if we need to drop the prop bet or change it in any form. | |||
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| bjsaust |
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We'll chat, maybe we should include an illness or injury clause on the exercise stuff 
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Just playing to improve.
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| Robb |
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| Heat wave? Isn't it winter? Oh, yeah, you live on the ass side of the planet :P | |||
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| bjsaust |
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2nd Feb. Didnt play yesterday. Didnt really feel in the mood today, but thats kind of the point of the prop bet. Played for just over an hr tonight, built up to 6 tables (Everest very quiet my evenings takes a while to get the tables going), more FR than 6-max, but most of the FR tables were playing short, in fact I spent a lot of time HU on a couple. Ran fairly good, hands held, reads were on, omg I made some nice folds, pulled some nice plays based on reads. Definately started to lose it towards the end though. Going to have to build up to longer sessions, found myself limping and playing poorly towards end. One guy got lucky a few times (started with a 20bb stack HU and I got him all in A9s v's 96o, he hit quads) few lesser suckouts. Really wanted to stay around and stack him but kept closing tables and eventually closed that one. Felt good most of the time. Its funny, since I'm not as confident as I have been previously with my game, I'm more prepared to fold. I think I acknowledge how much those bad calls cost me, so I just dont pay that cost. Obviously running hot on Everest so far, but these guys really are pretty bad as a rule. 1 buyin up over 400 hands, nice start to the month. [edit] Just checked stats, I ran 25/18 on 4 FR and 2 6-max tables. An indication of how short a couple of the FR tables were, and also how much I was able to isolate the FR nits on those short tables. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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Didn't sleep well last night so slow start to the day. Got to lunch time and I made it down to the gym though, and a run after work. Wifes out tonight so thought I'd try getting some poker in while looking after our son. Didnt work so well, between being really tired and keeping an eye on son distracting me I really didnt play well. Lost a buyin total. I think half that was bad (or at least unnecessary) bluffs and the rest a bad stackoff with KTo on 44K flop in 4 way limped flop. Players were still bad, but I sunk to their level  .Think I'm right to get my exercise goals this week. I'll need to do both gym and cardio tomorrow, and I play b'ball tomorrow night, so that'll be tough, but Thursdays a day off since I travel for work then, so if on Friday and Saturday I can do a gym workout both days and one lot of cardio I'll be set. Pity about the poker, falling behind already. I figure I basically need to do 500 hands per day, and so far I've only done 600 hands over 3 days. Going to need to do a couple 1k hand days at some point. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| jimmy44 |
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| Robb |
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Playing only after kids are asleep is +++++EV. And I'm STILL mad about stacking off with about zero equity in the hand. Maybe everyone at the table took good notes, though :P |
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| bjsaust |
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| Yeah, it wasnt even that he was playing up. He just fell over a couple times and I had to sit him back up, and just turning the head every minute to check on him and chat back etc. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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A bit up on down on this mornings session (hoping to get at least 2 sessions in today). Crushed for a while, but lost it all in the last few mins. Wasnt meant to be the last few mins but I made the call to quit early. On one hand disappointed that I made some questionable plays, on the other hand happy that I made the call that my head wasnt right anymore and quit. Not even sure they were that terrible, but the mind didnt feel right. Just for fun, heres a hand based on a conversation with Griffey the other day. It came up that I almost never double barrel, and he suggested c-betting some hands with backdoor outs that I might normally not c-bet as a way to get more double barrels in. This ones an example of that, with results in for fun: $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG loulou12100 ($19.75) UTG 1 eltunisian ($45.10) CO frb010 ($74.20) BTN Hero ($49.75) SB sch2007 ($33.85) BB ortivero ($29.40) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BTN   3 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, sch2007 calls $1.25, 1 fold Flop:    ($3.50, 2 players)sch2007 checks, Hero bets $2.50, sch2007 calls $2.50 Turn:  ($8.50, 2 players)sch2007 checks, Hero bets $5, sch2007 calls $5 River:  ($18.50, 2 players)sch2007 checks, Hero checks Final Pot: $18.50 Hero shows: sch2007 shows:   Hero wins $17.60 ( won $8.60 ) sch2007 lost -$9 |
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Just playing to improve.
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| griffey24 |
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| Shipppp haha.... I hope you owned this guy for calling crap like K6o! | |||
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| bjsaust |
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I dont think I actually got many hands against him . I'm in a mixed up place with poker atm. I really havnt been sleeping well, maybe some stress and stuff, and rarely felt good to play. In my mindset/etc. On the other hand I have my prop-bet with Kmind so trying to get some hands in, even when I dont feel good. Brought the laptop down to the lounge again today, and while wife was there looking after our son, it was still distracting and I played terrible. Stacked off in the dumbest way ever, and only got back into it with a huge suckout. Only played for 40 mins before I pulled the pin, actually ended up $30 due to people basically just giving me money towards the end. Tried again tonight after everyone was in bed. Felt better mentally, but this time my brain just didnt seem to work. Not my mood, just...felt dumb. Weird. Anyway, stuck it out for 45 mins and won a buyin which was nice. Thats the weird part. I'm winning. Well. Running at 9ptbb/100 this month, and 15ptbb/100 for the year. Of course both are over extremely small samples, which is the point. Am I supposed to push through and force myself to play when my head isnt right, or just play when I do? Kminds offered to drop the prop bet this month if we choose. We both agree that playing badly is worse than not playing at all. On the other hand, I deliberately proposed the propbet to try to get myself to play more hands. I've mentioned a few times how soft Everest is and thats why I chose it over FT, so I figured I'd end this dreary entry with an amusing example of what I mean: $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 5 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($47.50) CO ($18.15) Hero (BTN) ($54.60) SB ($51.05) BB ($116.25) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is BTN   1 fold, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, CO calls $1.50 Flop:    ($4.75, 2 players)CO checks, Hero bets $3, CO calls $3 Turn:  ($10.75, 2 players)CO checks, Hero bets $6, CO calls $6 River: ($22.75, 2 players)CO bets $7.15, Hero calls $7.15 Final Pot: $37.05 CO shows:  Hero shows: Hero wins $35.20 ( won $17.05 ) CO lost -$18.15 See what I mean about just giving me money? That kind of hand isnt so rare. I'd expect if I'm playing 6 tables to have at least one guy like that on at least two of my tables. Could be up to 4. Now obviously I dont always get their money, but then again 8 buyins over 2.5k hands suggests I get my share .I think I'll post an interesting hand in Genitruc's thread (he's been looking at some for me...because he's bored I guess). I dont get a lot I find interesting, mainly because theres so much easy money not getting myself into tricky spots, but I ended up in one this time. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| Robb |
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| bjsaust |
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Only got one session in yesterday, but it was a profitable one. Bit crazy, will post a few hands. Won $90, but should have been $140, made a bad stackoff after mistaking a player. Had this maniac stack off with 89o v's my AK, then the very next hand stack off with 75o against another player. Right after that I see someone raise on another table and I look down and see KQ, normally I'd flat that, but the name looked familar so I glanced down at the table with the maniac and sure enough same name in that seat. I decided KQ was perfectly fine to gambool v's ATC so 3-bet him and got it in. Turns out it wasnt the same guy. He'd stood up and this guy had just taken his seat. KQ < KA. Oops. Heres an interesting hand: No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com saw flop | saw showdown Button ($35.35) SB ($58.79) BB ($50) UTG ($29) MP ($61.90) Hero (CO) ($56.05) Preflop: Hero is CO with K  , J 1 fold, MP calls $0.50, Hero raises $2.25, 1 fold, SB calls $2, 1 fold, MP calls $1.75 Flop: ($7.25) K , Q, 8 (3 players)SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $5, SB calls $5, 1 fold Turn: ($17.25) 6 (2 players)SB checks, Hero bets $11, SB calls $11 River: ($39.25) 2 (2 players)SB bets $39.25, Hero calls $37.80 (All-In) Total pot: $114.85 This is an example where v's a better player I might slow down on turn, but this guy hates to fold and has a wide range. River is actually a bad spot. I dont have a particular read that this guys a bluff bot, but I have TP v's a poor player. Results: SB had A , Q (one pair, Queens).Hero had K , J (one pair, Kings).Outcome: Hero won $111.85 I really dont understand these guys. I wonder if he was bluffing his hand with showdown value, or value betting his 2nd pair? I wonder if he knew... That one was borderline but ok I think (hard not to be a bit results oriented). This next one I dont like so much, but it has some interesting spots: No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com saw flop | saw showdown Hero (Button) ($76.85) SB ($4.50) BB ($55.05) MP ($124.50) CO ($96.05) Preflop: Hero is Button with K , K1 fold, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises $2.25, 2 folds, CO calls $1.75 Flop: ($5.25) 3 , 10, 5 (2 players)CO checks, Hero bets $3, CO calls $3 Turn: ($11.25) A (2 players)CO bets $11.25, Hero calls $11.25 River: ($33.75) K (2 players)CO checks, Hero bets $22, CO calls $22 Total pot: $77.75 Results: Hero had K , K (three of a kind, Kings).CO didn't show Outcome: Hero won $75.75 This guy was my ATM for the session. 42/5 or something, limp/calling a lot about 50/50 fold/call c-bet, which was an interesting dynamic. I've gotten him to payoff with some 2nd pair hands, and also done well just by c-betting. Turn nearly makes me puke a bit. He hasnt played back at me all session. I really think this was probably a fold. With the Kc and how much I've been bullying him though I decided to call. River is interesting, I just felt like if he had the flush he bets always on river after betting turn. This made me lean more towards an Ax hand, so I felt there was some value to be had. He had AJ with Jc. So a bad call on turn but I like my bet on the river. I just got my exercise side of the prop bet done last week, running behind on my hands though. 1700 so far, on pace would be 3k. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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| Not going to say much. I played 45 mins distracted and not feeling good and dropped 4.5 buyins to drop back to breakeven for the match. 1 cooler, 1 suckout, the rest played badly. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| Illfavor |
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| Sorry about your poor luck, but thanks a lot for your help in da IRCs today. | |||
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Ich grolle nicht...
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| bjsaust |
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| Not poor luck really. I played bad then mixed in some tilt. Something I felt I've been pretty good on lately, so thats disappointing. Takes my month to date to $6 profit. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| swiggidy |
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-1 BI/10min is bad IMO Play better plz |
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(\__/)
(='.'=) (")_(")
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| bjsaust |
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| IMO too. Time to chat to kmind about this bet. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| kmind |
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| umm I just dropped 3 buyins. Will talk to you after my session about everything | |||
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| bjsaust |
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Sigh, both Kmind and myself dropped 4.5 buyins today based on the last msg he sent me (I just lost mine a lot faster). We've agreed to drop the hands per month part of our prop bet. We feel its healthier to only play when we feel good to play. We're keeping the health side of it, and the overall winner for the month part. Theory is the reason behind dropping the forced hands is that we should do better playing just when right, than playing more hands but when not right, so its all good. He's not going to move up to 100nl this month, so to make things fair I've agreed to the same. On the off chance I make 10 buyins before the end of the month I'll just build a bigger buffer. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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Finish the day a bit brighter, shipped slightly over 2.5 buyins over 540 hands tonight. First time I've played more than an hr this year. Felt good, played good, got rewarded. Nothing I'm too ashamed of. One iffy calldown when I hit a FD + gutshot on flop and raised a minbet called, he minbet turn again and I called and he potted river and I called with my A high and his A8 > my A5, so bleh again I guessed correct it was a bluff, but lost anyway. Then again, the knowledge I got from that hand I'm pretty sure I made back later from the same player. Thats one topic you dont see discussed much. Calling for information. There are times I have nothing, but the line is so weird I feel its worth calling. Heres an example: This is the guys first orbit so no reads: No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Button ($11.15) SB ($30.46) Hero (BB) ($90.25) UTG ($68.99) MP ($70.82) CO ($5) Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , K3 folds, Button raises $1.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.25 Flop: ($3.75) 9 , 7, 5 (2 players)Hero checks, Button checks Turn: ($3.75) 3 (2 players)Hero checks, Button checks River: ($3.75) 6 (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $3.75, Hero calls $3.75 Total pot: $11.25 Results: Button had K , 10 (flush, King high).Hero didn't show Q , K (nothing).Outcome: Button won $10.70 Now I guess sometimes my K high might be good there, but I'm not counting on it being good enough times to be +EV. However I now have a note on this guy that he didnt semi-bluff his draw as PFR, and didnt bet turn when the draw came in, but did desperation bet-pot the river hoping to make up for the value he lost by trapping. Thats a pretty nice note to have. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| dev |
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I can't find it, but I remember a discussion about paying for information a while back. The conclusion was that it's almost never worth it. Let the other players pay for your information. The second hand could be worth it if the guy is a reg multi-tabler. You're paying purely for info tho, I think there's like < 5% chance that you're good there. |
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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| griffey24 |
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| If he has air, he's going to bluff the flop or the turn I'd imagine. I think his most likely "bluff" in this spot is a crappy A-high trying to get you off a better A-high/weak hand. | |||
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| bjsaust |
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I'm a very curious man. I keep thinking my A high could be good, but I have to stop doing it with crap kickers. OK, I'll try to rethink it, even though you're overestimating the amount of thinking that goes into bluffs at Everest 50nl. Its generally not much more than "hmm, I think I'll bluff!" from what I can work out. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| Da GOAT |
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yo Bj, you playing now??? i may be up for a rail edit::gonna watch a video now actually, should pick a day to rail. |
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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| bjsaust |
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Figured I'd post my delayed c-betting article I did for NutsInHo's competition here. Its not great (and obviously didnt win). I think it covers more aspects of delayed c-betting, but doesnt use the maths and ranges of the winning one. Kind of like my poker, general ideas but not really nailed down mathmatically. Anyway, enjoy and please comment: Delayed Cbetting (in both single raised and 3bet pots, value and bluff) I chose this topic to address as I dont believe its something a lot of other FTR posters have as part of their game, or have given much thought to. Also because whilst I've deliberately introduced it to my game over the last few months and have reasons behind when I do it, I've never really stopped and laid out those thoughts in a logical fashion. Its also a topic I've read little to nothing about. My approach to delayed c-betting has been largely self taught, so I guess its a chance to see if I'm on the right track. Delayed c-betting to me fits more into a bigger picture, which is checking behind flop as the PFR (you could try doing it OOP but its less valuable, I'll address that later). This opens up a number of options most players dont consider, a primary one of which is the delayed c-bet, as well as granting other advantages. To quickly list some advantages: 1. Pot size manipulation 2. Range balancing 3. Exploitation 4. Deception 5. A free card Lets look at these in more detail: 1. Pot size manipulation By checking behind flop, we effectively cut the betting from three streets to two. If we feel we could be in a WA/WB situation, this reduces our opponents chances to raise us and put us to difficult decisions. Heres an example hand: $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 4 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: CO Hero ($56.60) BTN annielp ($43.65) SB KFR_adrian ($47.95) BB w4ld3 ($50.00) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 4 players) Hero is CO   Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, KFR_adrian calls $1.50, 1 fold Flop:   ($4, 2 players)KFR_adrian checks, Hero checks Turn:  ($4, 2 players)KFR_adrian checks, Hero bets $3, KFR_adrian calls $3 River: ($10, 2 players)KFR_adrian bets $3, Hero raises to $9 ... Villain in this hand was unknown at the time. Without a read that he's calling particularly loosely from the blinds, the concern is that we're behind his flop c/c or c/r range. QK, 55, 66 being the most likely. We'd assume he'd reraise AK pre-flop and he might have KT but not likely to have a weaker K. Flop is fairly dry, unless he's called us with a SC like 78 we're not worried about him drawing out on us. Its possible he could call a flop c-bet with hands like 88-JJ which we're ahead of, but we're unlikely to go for three streets of value with TPGK on this hand, so we can still try for two streets on turn and river rather than flop/turn or flop/river, so I dont think we lose much value checking here. On the other side if he was to raise flop. or call flop and raise turn, we're looking at playing a large pot which we'd prefer not to do. So we delay our c-bet until the turn, and I think it looks weaker now, so he's more likely to call with weaker pairs and maybe he picked up a draw. In this case he donks small on the river which I feel is more likely a missed draw or a weak hand trying to block bet so I raise for value. The main point is I was able to get two streets of value out of a hand I'd like to get two streets of value out of, and avoided the chance of playing for a big pot I didnt want to play for with the hand I had. 2. Range balancing I definately used to have a side to my game without any balance whatsoever, and I believe most players coming up through the microstakes are the same. If I c-bet the flop I would sometimes have a hand and sometimes have air, but if I checked the flop as the PFR I would always have air. To anyone paying attention, and even just to people who like to bet, this is an open invitation to take the pot away the next chance they have to bet. I may have occassionally checked the stone cold nuts (or close) on the flop just because I had the deck crushed and wanted to give opponents a chance to improve their hand or bluff at me, but nowhere near enough to stop myself from being vey exploitable in this area. I still want to maximise value from my big hands by going for three streets of value, so by checking behind flop with some of my TP type hands I can balance things out a bit. For example, villain here is 13/3 so I dont expect a big range from him in SB: $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: Hero (UTG) ($76.80) UTG 1 ($101.75) CO ($9.45) BTN ($17.70) SB ($44.75) BB ($71.24) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is UTG   Hero raises to $1.75, 3 folds, SB calls $1.50, 1 fold Flop:   ($4, 2 players)SB checks, Hero checks Turn: ($4, 2 players)SB bets $2.35, Hero calls $2.35 River: ($8.70, 2 players)SB checks, Hero bets $5 ... If this hand shows down then anyone taking note will see I checked back TPTK on the flop and can no longer assume that just because I check flop after being the pre-flop raiser that I'm giving up the pot. One area most people are unbalanced in is c-betting OOP. I think a lot of people do at least some checking back IP for other reasons, if not as part of a specific balancing strategy, however OOP most people have a very polarised flop check range. Mostly air/giving up with the occasional nut hand. Most players are happy to take advantage of that by betting flop any time the PFR checks to them. A lot of the people I play against have a v's PFR check bet IP % around 80%. Its instant. By occassionally checking some medium strength hands OOP as well we can balance this, the danger here of course is that we could end up playing all three streets which can be expensive, but we can target our opponents to minimise the risk (either more passive ones who we dont expect to double/triple barrel air too much, or maniacs who we DO expect to double/triple barrel air a lot. 3. Exploitation There are a few reads we can develop that might make us likely to check back flop. One could be that someone always bets into weakness. In this case we could check back both made hands where we let them bluff and we call, or air where we raise their bluffs. Another could be noticing someone has a rather high fold to c-bet percentage. We could be targetting that player because they fold flop a lot, but if we have a good hand ourselves we dont actually want them to fold. By checking flop maybe we can get them to call with hands on the turn that they might otherwise fold on the flop (especially an A or K high flop which weak-tight players are terrified of). In this example villain is very aggressive postflop over a smallish sample: $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 5 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($9.00) CO ($33.80) Hero (BTN) ($70.45) SB ($27.85) BB ($52.55) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is BTN UTG calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, UTG calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50 Flop:    ($6.75, 3 players)UTG checks, CO checks, Hero checks Turn:  ($6.75, 3 players)UTG bets $6.75, CO folds, Hero raises to $13.50, UTG calls $0.25 River: ($27.25, 2 players)Final Pot: $27.25 UTG shows:  Hero shows: Hero wins $26.25 ( won $10.75 ) UTG lost -$9 CO lost -$2 I've also had opponents who will only bet if they hit, and never bet if they dont. If I have position on them, I can exploit that by c-bet bluffing less and checking behind on flop then if they dont bet turn I can delay c-bet 100% of the time and expect them to fold most of the time. 4. Deception This one kind of falls into all of the categories, but by the nature of checking back both good hands and air, we become more deceptive. Take the example hand in point 2. After a table has seen us check back TP type hands a few times, now our delayed c-bets will be even more likely to work. We've gone from a situation where opponents might be more likely to call us as we look weak, to one where opponents might be more likely to fold in case we're actually strong. If we have a hand with some showdown value (such as a mid PP) this might also mean we can get to the river before facing a bet (if then), if opponents no longer see us checking flop as an invitation to buy the pot on the turn. 5. A free card Sometimes we get a flop texture that hits their calling range more than our raising range, so we dont think our c-bet will get any respect. If our opponent loves to limp/call with PPs for instance, and the flop is all undercards while we hold two broadways, then we may have a read that he'll float us even if he missed. If we check behind we get a free card to either improve our hand and bet for value, or bring a card that matches our flop checking range of hands (basically any broadway). We're not only drawing to our 6 outs with 2 overcards, but an additional 8-12 (depending on how scary we think a 10 will be) good scare cards also. Heres an example: $0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($98.05) UTG 1 ($280.71) Hero (CO) ($97.00) BTN ($41.95) SB ($99.00) BB ($87.80) Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is CO  UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, UTG calls $3 Flop: ($9.50, 2 players)UTG checks, Hero checks Turn: ($9.50, 2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $7, UTG folds Final Pot: $16.50 Hero wins $16.05 ( won $5.05 ) UTG lost -$4 Delayed c-betting and 3-bet pots I havnt addressed this much. In reality most of the points stay the same, except maybe the pot size manipulation aspect not so much. You'd use it a bit on value lines such as the classic KK in 3-bet pot on A high flop situation, but generally you'd be more likely to use it in a WA/WB situation: $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($55.35) UTG 1 ($49.75) CO ($55.10) BTN ($51.20) SB ($142.65) Hero (BB) ($50.50) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BB  UTG raises to $1.75, 4 folds, Hero raises to $6, UTG calls $4.25 Flop:  ($12.25, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG checks Turn:  ($12.25, 2 players)Hero bets $8, UTG calls $8 River: ($28.25, 2 players)Hero bets $10, UTG folds Final Pot: $38.25 Hero wins $36.85 ( won $12.85 ) UTG lost -$14 Thoughts on delayed c-betting Reading the above it probably sounds like delayed c-betting is the greatest thing ever and you should immediately start checking back your TP hands. In reality all of those hands could be played differently. In particular I'd prefer the delayed c-bet approach with weaker kicker than the hands used. Its not the be all and end all of moves, but it should be an arrow in your quiver. It definately offers advantages, and does a great job of balancing some ranges and making you less predictable, without giving up a lot of value (and sometimes maybe gaining more value). I think its a move that should get more valuable as you move into higher stakes. At the micro->small stake levels a lot of opponents arent paying enough attention for the range balancing aspect to matter much, and you'll often do better with a c-bet flop/check turn line to get value from floaters and weaker hands. Not that range balancing doesnt matter, but we can afford to be selective about when to balance and when we just want to go for maximum value from this particular hand. As we play more thinking opponents, we naturally end up both with more opponents paying attention to us, and more likely they're paying attention to hands they're not directly involved in as well. The more attention opponents are paying, the more exploitable only checking back air becomes. So its not something we use ALL of the time, in fact we should be careful not to overuse it, but its something we should mix in some of the time. One of the main advantages of the delayed c-bet is the effect on our opponents calling ranges. Lets take for example a somewhat decent opponent who calls our MP raise from the blinds with QJs and the flop comes KJ4 rainbow. The threat of three streets of betting, with our relatively strong range doesnt look encouraging and he may just fold flop. If he does call flop, getting him to call again on the turn is fairly unlikely unless we have a poor image or he picks up a backdoor draw. On the other hand, if we check back flop, and then bet turn, he may percieve our range as being weaker, and as such call on the turn and when faced with a half pot bet on the river decide the odds are just too good to ignore. Especially against a suspicious opponent we can exploit this to our advantage. Against opponents who we know love to chase draws, we can check back dry flops they're more likely to fold, and hope they pick up a draw on the turn they'll chase. We can also use it as a chance to mix things up. If we've been c-betting a player a lot, we may start to sometimes use a delayed c-bet instead. This helps reinforce their perception that we're betting because we have a hand, and gee sometimes we get lucky and hit the turn instead! Hope theres some good ideas in there. As I said at the beginning I really havnt read anything about delayed c-betting that I can recall, its a topic thats rarely discussed. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| XTR1000 |
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| wow, thats a long post. im coming back here tomorrow to read and comment. too tired right now. | |||
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| bjsaust |
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It looks longer than it is with the actual HH examples. I actually thought most responses would be longer, if I'd known short and concise was better I may have done more than one  .DaGoat, for sure we should! I'll try to catch you on msn to chat. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| Robb |
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| Nice post. That makes some things that I've been grasping at (but not quite grasping) pretty clear. | |||
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| Parasurama |
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Hi Ben, nice essay. It looks like you use the delayed c-bet more effectively than I do. I kind of just took the concept that I thought was getting a lower number of responses (and that I could wrap my head around) and extrapolated why it would be valuable in 6maxNLHE. Your essay definitely has some advantages over mine, specifically the way that you broke it up. I think the key point I had over you was about using the delayed cbet on boards where your range is behind the preflop caller's. In the example you used for range balancing, I think it's much better to bet the flop with your whole range and balance that way. I'm sure you felt it was a valuable exercise regardless of the outcome as I did. Look at it this way, you don't get to play in a game where you are most certainly -EV like I do. |
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| bjsaust |
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Thats the example everyone brings up as the main mistake Parasurama. To paraphrase others my range is very unbalanced there because I never check back air. Now I actually do sometimes because I'm one of the more passive c-bettors on FTR, but generally speaking thats such a good flop to c-bet that the only hands I'm likely to check are non-air hands. In fact its been suggested that against a thinking player checking air could actually be the balance/levelling thing to do, since they'll expect us to have something when we check. I just didnt have a lot of good examples of checking TP hands, this is micro-small stakes, value betting is still the bread and butter. Quote:
Then again, I mention earlier this year, I need to do more work on maths and ranges instead of general concepts. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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Guy is 80/15 with 30% fold to cbet. Standard yes? $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 5 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: Hero (UTG) ($48.50) CO ($84.40) BTN ($54.40) SB ($48.40) BB ($53.70) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is UTG Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, BTN calls $1.75, 2 folds Flop:  ($4.25, 2 players)Hero bets $3, BTN calls $3 Turn:  ($10.25, 2 players)Hero bets $5, BTN calls $5 River: ($20.25, 2 players)Hero bets $12, BTN calls $12 [Results Hidden] Posted in irc, a few people suggested checking river, but I think they're FR nits. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| Robb |
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| Bet river for value, imo. Very standard. | |||
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| griffey24 |
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I definitely bet bigger on every street vs this kind of opponent $4, $9, $23 looks good to me |
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| Da GOAT |
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| as griffey said bet sizing way way too small | |||
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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| bjsaust |
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| Ok, I was more worried about making him fold his 9x hands but I think you're right. | |||
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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I'm invoking the injury clause on the exercise portion of our prop-bet. Came down on someone elses foot playing basketball last night and rolled my ankle kinda bad . Apparantly I suck at prop bets. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| bjsaust |
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Had a quick session, ran like god other than one hand I got in as 77% favorite and lost (flopped nut flush v's set, got ai on turn and river paired board). Couple hands to look at: Hand 1 Villain is 54/7/0.8 with 63% fold to c-bet over 40 hands: $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: Hero (UTG) ($49.25) UTG 1 ($111.37) CO ($28.80) BTN ($36.29) SB ($23.22) BB ($55.60) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is UTG Hero raises to $1.75, UTG 1 calls $1.75, 2 folds, SB calls $1.50, 1 fold Flop:  ($5.75, 3 players)SB checks, Hero bets $4, UTG 1 calls $4, SB folds Turn: ($13.75, 2 players)Hero bets $7, UTG 1 raises to $14, Hero calls $7 River: ($41.75, 2 players)Hero checks, UTG 1 bets $14.75, Hero folds Final Pot: $56.50 UTG 1 wins $54.45 ( won $19.95 ) SB lost -$1.75 Hero lost -$19.75 Hand 2 CO is taggish over small sample, other two are CS types. Two questions, when do I bet and what do we think he has here? CO was taggish, rest were CS types. $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($64.20) UTG 1 ($17.37) CO ($12.25) BTN ($12.73) SB ($73.32) Hero (BB) ($51.85) [UTG 1 posted $0.5] Pre-flop: ($1.25, 6 players) Hero is BB UTG calls $0.50, UTG 1 checks, CO calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero checks Flop:  ($2.25, 4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG 1 checks, CO checks Turn: ($2.25, 4 players)Hero bets $2, 2 folds, CO raises to $11.75, Hero folds Final Pot: $16 CO wins $15.70 ( won $3.45 ) Hero lost -$2.50 UTG lost -$0.50 UTG 1 lost -$0.50 Hand 3 This is only like 5 hands at table so no read. I basically never donk, but it seems bad to give him a chance to check behind here. $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 5 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($50.00) Hero (CO) ($49.75) BTN ($54.80) SB ($164.77) BB ($22.60) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is CO  1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, BTN raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.25 Flop:  ($6.75, 2 players)Hero bets $4 |
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Just playing to improve.
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| kmind |
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1. I just fold turn because I don't think he is ever raising with worse 2. I like 3. I donk because we only have 5 hands on him but he's minraising preflop which makes me think he's either more of a CS or more of a maniac which should both put money in on the flop a lot. |
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| griffey24 |
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| dev |
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1. I like, the river bet looks like V is begging for a call. 2. Set or JT prolly. I don't see lots of aces checking behind on the flop then going crazy on the turn, even the 2p ones. I lean toward JT because this is kind of an overbet if he wants value. I wouldn't have bet at all because it's 4 handed and we're waaaay oop. I think this hand isn't good for much but a bluff catcher. In this situation it's just too expensive to try to catch a bluff. 3. I like it. Are we stopping here because he folded? If not this hand could get interesting. |
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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| bjsaust |
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Hand 2, I agree. A few people lately have pointed out that I need to just keep betting at times I go passive, but I dont think 4-way with 2nd pair is the right time for it. The other two players in the hand were bad calling stations, so I dont think it was terrible, but even if someone flats us, the river gets really awkward however we approach it. Probably a c/c turn, evaluate river, or if turn is checked through then v'bet river is best. Hand 3, no he didnt fold, he raised and I got it in v's his KQo, but I didnt want to influence thoughts on the initial donk bet. On one hand I wonder if my donk made me look weaker that he'll stack off with TPGK, on the other since he did its probably fair to assume a c/r would have worked just as well and gotten some value from his air range also. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| hopeful |
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| Hand 1, Might have been tempted to put a potsized bet on the turn, 2 pair NFD is a strong hand and villain already called 2/3 pot sized on flop. That K is a cooler, probably we are beat might have tried a blocking bet anything other than flush or full house will call. | |||
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| bjsaust |
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A real kinda meh session this evening. Had a few real aggros I felt I could clean up on if I got the right hand, and I just couldnt get it. Seemed like I was seeing a lot of flops and needing to fold. Getting 3-bet with the bottom of my range and not the top, stuff like that. Was down about $20 for most of a 70 min session, but one nice hand towards the end to bring me up. Its an example of one of my most fun moves in poker. I'm fairly certain kmind taught me this, but I'm not sure who he got it from. The 1/2 pot c-bet in a 3-bet pot!! $0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem 6 players Converted at weaktight.com Stacks: UTG ($57.25) UTG 1 ($42.10) CO ($52.65) BTN ($63.75) Hero (SB) ($47.25) BB ($77.85) Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is SB UTG raises to $1.75, 2 folds, BTN calls $1.75, Hero raises to $7.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50, BTN folds Flop:  ($16.75, 2 players)Hero bets $8, UTG raises to $50, Hero calls $32 Turn: ($106.75, 2 players)River: ($106.75, 2 players)Final Pot: $106.75 Hero shows: UTG shows:  Hero wins $93.75 ( won $46.50 ) UTG wins $10 ( lost -$47.25 ) BTN lost -$1.75 Shitty I wasnt fully bought in, must have just lost some money. People really spaz out on it. Might have some other hands to check on, but I'm tired so will look over the rest tomorrow. A lot of my river value bets seemed to result in folds, I might post a few and see if you guys think I'm betting a bit large or not. |
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Just playing to improve.
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| kmind |
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| BigPapi |
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hey Ben, I see you play a lot of 50NL at Everest. Have you played frb010 sometimes? He's a rl friend of mine and was just wondering. gl |
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