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OP: Make Penneywize Not Suck At Omaha

  
 
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Penneywize
Old 08-06-2011, 12:04 AM #51 (permalink)  
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 Here's my cumulative 5 PLO graph, for the sake of posterity:



Interestingly, around the 10.9k hand mark it is clear to see the effects of the changes I've made to my game recently.


---

Here's a fun hand, pretty much the one responsible for putting my BI goal for 5 PLO over the top. Any questions / comments are welcome, as usual. I let the results show here as it's pretty obvious I won the hand given the context I provided.


Reads (important in this hand): UTG is 85/50, BB is 33/27 with an aggression factor of 4.0 and I have not seen him show down a very strong hand following multiple streets of bets yet.


$0.02/$0.05 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($6.14)
UTG+1 ($8.96)
CO ($14.92)
Hero (BTN) ($12.90)
SB ($8.74)
BB ($25.97)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is BTN
UTG raises to $0.17, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.55, 1 fold, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.38

Flop: ($1.67, 3 players)
BB bets $1.19, UTG calls $1.19, Hero calls $1.19

Turn: ($5.24, 3 players)
BB bets $4.99, UTG folds, Hero goes all-in $11.16, BB calls $6.17

River: ($27.56, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $27.56
Hero shows three of a kind, Jacks

BB shows two pair, Aces and Threes


Hero wins $26.20 (net +$13.30)

BB lost $12.90
UTG lost $1.74

---

does the flop play, in particular, seem ok to everyone?

 
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baudib
Old 08-06-2011, 01:55 AM #52 (permalink)  
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pretty sure we should raise the flop. nh
Playing big pots at small stakes.
 
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Penneywize
Old 08-12-2011, 01:00 AM #53 (permalink)  
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 So about 2.5k hands into 10 PLO I'm down a BI but I find, despite what my all-in EV curve would indicate, that I've been running pretty bad. I could easily be up about 3-4 BIs by the point, and by all rights and respects I feel I should probably be up there, but this is PLO and that's just how shit goes in this game I guess.

Despite "feeling I deserve better" (a completely fucking useless thought process in terms of my development) I have realized that I have fallen into some old habits I had thought I had shaken back at 5 PLO. I'm going to list here some facets of my game that need improvement and other things I feel I need to get to in the near future.

- analyze my c-betting - I am in all likelihood not doing this often enough, and probably even choosing poor situations when I actually do it.
- continue to work on my isoing and 3-betting, especially when light
- need to take advantage of position postflop in small pots - looking over previous sessions I find situations where I check behind weakish boards when turns have little likelihood of helping my hand. this obviously goes hand-in-hand with my c-betting habits
- work on noting villain river betting habits if I spot anything out of line. even passives bet large on rivers without the nuts sometimes, though rarely
- conversely, need to respect river bets, particularly in larger pots, both as a default v. unknowns and v. those who have demonstrated unbalanced betting ranges in these spots
- analyze my bluffing habits

In terms of study, I plan to:

- read articles 6 and 7 of PLO from scratch
- start watching / noting my way through the 'PLO' video series from DC

 
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rpm
Old 08-12-2011, 05:58 AM #54 (permalink)  
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 hey dude. while i can't really ever chime in with any information of any value, i'm enjoying following your blog. following someone grinding up from the very microest of micros in PLO is cool and a welcome break from 99% holdem focus of this forum. keep it up. and i might see you around the 10plo tables, if my drunken hours coincide with your grinding hours.
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baudib
Old 08-12-2011, 03:33 PM #55 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penneywize View Post
So about 2.5k hands into 10 PLO I'm down a BI but I find, despite what my all-in EV curve would indicate, that I've been running pretty bad. I could easily be up about 3-4 BIs by the point, and by all rights and respects I feel I should probably be up there, but this is PLO and that's just how shit goes in this game I guess.
Welcome to PLO.

Have you read Hwang's book(s)?
Playing big pots at small stakes.
 
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Penneywize
Old 08-12-2011, 06:59 PM #56 (permalink)  
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 Glad you're enjoying the blog rpm, I try to play around euro peak hours on stars at the 10 PLO tables as it seems the games get shitty any time after 10 PM my time (EST). If you're ever on around then, well, I'd say to look me up but I'm pretty sure I have searches hidden on stars. SN is Penneywize09 though.

baudib, it's definitely on my to-do list but probably not any time before I beat 25s or 50s. I still have to finish the PLO from scratch article series, which is 11 segments of about 10k+ words each... pretty in-depth and complete imo.

Take a look:
PLO From Scratch - Part 5 | Discussions | Donkr

If ever you get a chance, look it over and let me know what you think, I'd be very interested to hear a more experienced PLO player's impression on it.

 
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baudib
Old 08-12-2011, 07:02 PM #57 (permalink)  
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lol I'm reading Hwang's first book now, like a donk I read the second one first.
Playing big pots at small stakes.
 
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Penneywize
Old 08-12-2011, 10:24 PM #58 (permalink)  
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 Here's a hand from last night's down session. I think this is incredibly standard for the most part. Both villains are the loose/passive variety common at PLO micros and I haven't seen either get out of line. For the sake of argument (I don't feel like pulling PT3 up and checking for sure atm) just assume each of these guys run something like 35/12.

$0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.85)
CO ($8.26)
BTN ($5.25)
Hero (SB) ($10.89)
BB ($36.32)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is SB
UTG raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.90, UTG calls $0.70

Flop: ($3, 3 players)
Hero bets $2.85, BB folds, UTG goes all-in $8.85, $6 to Hero ($7.04)?

I understand there is practically no way this isn't a call - even against something like a set + straight + flush blockers I am at something like 28% equity. For completeness, I see villain's range being:

87xx roughly 80% of the time
sets + FDs about 10% of the time
two pair + FDs about 10% of the time

he will also occasionally show up with a real monster like a straight + set or a straight with flush draw blockers (or a straight flush draw) but this is probably only an arbitrarily small percentage of the time, and the equity difference is not too great to have that big of an impact

against 87xx I have 39.7% equity ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players
against sets + FDs I have roughly 30% equity ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players
against two pair + FDs I have over 52% equity ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players
against straight + straight flush draw (i.e. lots of blockers) I have ~23% equity - so overall not a huge equity difference here ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players

Putting all of these together:
0.8 * 39.7 = 0.24
0.1 * 52 = 0.05
0.1 * 30 = 0.03

Giving me an average equity of roughly 32% against his range. Since the pot is 14.70, and the bet to call is 6.00, I need an average equity of (6.00 / 20.70) 28.9%, so this is a fairly clear cut call.

I didn't post this hand up to analyze the all-in however (the range + equity bit was more of an exercise for myself more than anything else).

I am mostly concerned about:
A: my betsizing pre and
B: my flop pot sized c-bet.

any thoughts on the above?

 
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Penneywize
Old 08-12-2011, 11:08 PM #59 (permalink)  
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 Well, obviously not long after posting the above hand, I've spent some time reading further on Bug's PLO strategy series and have made a few realizations.

1) due to the low SPR on the flop, I should be a lot less willing to fold here, especially given the strength of my hand against villain's probable range
2) villain is definitely pushing a wider range than the one I stated, probably including hands like KcKd6c8d and that type of thing.

I didn't state any assumptions indicating that he is a thinking player, etc, but even novices have some idea of fold equity and stack to pot ratio - even if they haven't articulated or properly internalized such concepts i.e. "well the pot is so big, he might fold, his c-bet might be automatic, and I still have a draw so WTF IM ARR IN".

Looking back I believe my intention should have been to c-bet this board and insta call any raise (or shove if this villain doesn't raise enough), rather than humming and hawing over pot odds and analyzing an all-in. Folding anywhere here would probably be a huge leak. Even if both players shoved in front of me I still likely have decent enough equity to call.

 
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Penneywize
Old 08-15-2011, 10:13 PM #60 (permalink)  
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 Interesting hand. Villain (BTN) is 88/50 w/ a 25% 3-bet over a tiny sample <20 hands.

I have two questions - firstly, I'm not entirely sure of this being a great spot for a c-bet. I stand a chance to gain a great deal of equity on the turn which would make my play from that point on more straightforward, and it is probably better not to build a huge pot with non-nutty hand potential. One of the upsides to c-betting is that this opponent is very likely to continue, even with marginal holdings, and I could possibly get value from a currently 'worse' hand, though I will often not know when he actually improves to a better hand on future streets.

So, to c-bet or not to c-bet? and secondly, once we do c-bet and get raised, what's our play here?

I believe we can discount AAxx since he did not 3-bet pre which would seem to be a bit of a no-brainer given his stats and position (though, sample size does leave something to be desired).

So after his flop raise, the top of his range may look like sets, QQxx, 88xx and 33xx, possibly with flush draws. More often he will just have a pair + FD or just a FD, sometimes an inside wrap, two pair, or weakish holdings like Qxxx with an inside straight draw. An arbitrarily small percentage of the time he will have just a pair and mostly be on a bluff (which ironically still has okay equity v. my hand).

Given the tiny sample size and little knowledge of our opponent it becomes rather difficult to narrow down the probabilities of each holding listed above, and thus hard to estimate our equity here...

$0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($3.85)
Hero (UTG+1) ($10)
CO ($17.85)
BTN ($16.16)
SB ($5.22)
BB ($10)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.35, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.35, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.85, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, BTN raises to $1.80, $1.2 to Hero ($9.05)?

 
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Icanhastreebet
Old 08-17-2011, 04:13 PM #61 (permalink)  
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 In that last hand b/f is like super blah(We really can't) and b/c sucks because we're going to be way behind a lot and not going to know what to do on a tonne of turn cards(9JT, we have horrible reverse implied odds with clubs, 3 is possibly bad card we'll never fold on). b/3b is good if villain is VERY aggro and we know this but we don't. I opt to check in this situation atm from what I've read mostly because I can't b/f but I don't want to end up having to b/c and not knowing what to do on like ANY turn.
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Micro2Macro
Old 08-17-2011, 05:42 PM #62 (permalink)  
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 without reading any of yaawns post before writing mine in this spot I would recommend checking back the flop because betting puts you in a spot where if raised you are basically screwed vs the guys range and there isn't much value in betting but if you check u give urself free cards to hit flush or set with your kings and once u get that u can prolly get 2 streets of value from hands that outflopped u but then end up being behind

checking also sorta balances ur check back range a bit because its a hand u can probably peel at least a turn with so ur check range isn't just total whiffs that u wanna give up entirely.
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drmcboy
Old 08-17-2011, 07:20 PM #63 (permalink)  
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 AAQQ hand is a fist pump call. Running 66J8 so it kills your queen really doesn't make sense. If you need an OESD to go with your bottom set and FD in a 3b pot you're playing way too tight. He will be jamming Txxx+ here (all these hands will have some other draw) especially if he has any inkling you're going to consider folding THIS hand ever. If you're ever folding AA+NFD in a 3b pot you've made a mistake somewhere.

KK73 hand this is a decent open limp spot given this guy is OTB. The rest is super read dependent, vs possible goof ball I'd just bet/cram. to me c/c has all the problems of bet/call except you've shown less strength so it will be more unclear what to do if you still have KK on blank turns. c/r then bomb most turns also seems better than c/c. c/c OOP doesn't/shouldn't scare people into not betting in future hands but c/r will. We are for sure not screwed against this guy's raise flop range which has lots of dominated draw+pairs.
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