Changing tactics : My Live Poker Blog

Hi all,

Have decided due to poor success online, I'm not going to completely part company with poker, but switch to live play instead. I'm going to be playing cash £200 NL.

My goal is to make £3,000 per month for a year and then reevaluate the next steps. I'll post a brief update after each session here, as well as my thoughts. Along the way if anyone has any advice or suggestions re: live play, or any of the hands or comments I post please let me know!

Going to have first session on Monday

First....



















to facepalm another blog.

Hi Jyms, good to see you! No backwards steps from here on in, I intend to break through with this operation and use it to lay the foundations of a good poker career, would appreciate any input you can give as it progresses, I'm going to do my best to remember tricky spots from my live sessions and post them here

3k @ $20 an hour =150 hours?

GL

Originally Posted by !Luck

3k @ $20 an hour =150 hours?

GL

Sure, ruin the dream with math

Originally Posted by jyms

Sure, ruin the dream with idiocy

fyp

Originally Posted by kiwiMark

fyp

hi5

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

My goal is .....

Not again.

Thanks Luck, i'll be doing this part time as i'm also working full time, but hours wise my plan is, 4 hours a night week days and 10 hours a day weekends.

Starting Monday 28th I will have a total of

24 weekdays and 8 weekend-days, so I'll be aiming to have played approx

24*4 + 8*10 = 96+80 = 176 hours,

Which means I'll be looking for £17 per hour which I think is a fairly good target to aim for

I love reading about live poker. GL. And if you manage to work full time and play that much poker. Hats off to you.

!luck

Have you ever played that much live before? 10 hour days are brutal. For me at least. I start feeling really shitty after like 6 hours and then it's all downhill from there.

I don't see how you don't burn out. GL though

Thanks Luck!

Hey Courtney, I have regularly played 4-5 hour sessions without much of a problem. A couple of weeks back I played a 13 hour session, but I was playing at about minus 90% for the last 2 hours or so, but considering this was after a full days work - I'm hardly surprised.

So what you say does make sense. My plan is to get the first set of weekdays out the way, then i'll think a little more about weekend structure, It might come down to me playing 2 4 hour sessions sat and sun and playing 8 hours on fri night, will play it by ear the first weekend i think, the key will be whatever length of session i'm playing that I move out, if I start feeling i'm playing badly, if i can manage that I think I should do fine, and that is going to be the real key to me succeeding with this as I know it's my biggest leak currently.

best of luck
where you playing? did you ever go to meet the FTR admins after that virgin promo you won?

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Hi Daven, no I never went to meet the FTRadmins, I'm going to be playing at various venues across London after a while I'm going to analyse my results and see which one suits me better and probabally start playing exclusively there, that's the good thing with London you're spoilt for choice of places to play. Thanks for the good luck

Opened a savings account last week which has been set up now which I'm going to use exclusively for my live poker profits to keep them out of my current account. Good timing that it's all set up the week before I am starting.

I'm going to spend a few hours today with a CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) book I've been reading over the past 3 weeks or so in preperation for my live poker push.Having some limited live experience I estimate for me personally my success is going to require about : 70% emotional control, 10% technical skill and 20% general savvy (i.e. not talking about your hands, or giving too much away with your body language etc.)

Technical skill is so low because the skill set to beat 200nl I already have so it will just be a matter of putting it into play. Emotional control is so high because that is the part of my game that will need the most of my effort over the coming months as that is an area that is far less developed than my technical skill. General savvy is really something I will get with experience I think. I have found in the past that when i first started playing live my instant reaction when losing a pot by someone that had called me down and rivered me with no odds, was to start streaming my thought of consciousness out of my mouth.. how could you call me down, I can't believe you hit that etc etc.. not in a rude way or an aggressive way as some idiots do (i can't stand that) - but in a almost muttering to myself but loud enough for the table to hear.... that's just stupid... as it shows both that you're emotionally weakened and also that you have half an idea what hands should be calling you and what shouldn't it's giving too much info away. In the words of Tommy Angelo - it's definately not keeping 'mum' - but with experience you do learn not to let your mouth run away with itself etc...

The CBT book is a big help on the emotional front, going to hit the books again now in preperation for first session tomorrow. Hope Sundays go well for everyone today!

If you have emotional control problems you will never be able to handle the amount of hours your thinking of putting in. Fatigue is a huge factor in emotional control

What are you using for a BR since you haven't seemed to mention it? I find it hard to believe you have any real decent amount of BI's for this.

Hi Daven, no I never went to meet the FTRadmins, I'm going to be playing at various venues across London after a while I'm going to analyse my results and see which one suits me better and probabally start playing exclusively there, that's the good thing with London you're spoilt for choice of places to play. Thanks for the good luck

Opened a savings account last week which has been set up now which I'm going to use exclusively for my live poker profits to keep them out of my current account. Good timing that it's all set up the week before I am starting.

I'm going to spend a few hours today with a CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) book I've been reading over the past 3 weeks or so in preperation for my live poker push.Having some limited live experience I estimate for me personally my success is going to require about : 70% emotional control, 10% technical skill and 20% general savvy (i.e. not talking about your hands, or giving too much away with your body language etc.)



Technical skill is so low because the skill set to beat 200nl I already have so it will just be a matter of putting it into play. Emotional control is so high because that is the part of my game that will need the most of my effort over the coming months as that is an area that is far less developed than my technical skill. General savvy is really something I will get with experience I think. I have found in the past that when i first started playing live my instant reaction when losing a pot by someone that had called me down and rivered me with no odds, was to start streaming my thought of consciousness out of my mouth.. how could you call me down, I can't believe you hit that etc etc.. not in a rude way or an aggressive way as some idiots do (i can't stand that) - but in a almost muttering to myself but loud enough for the table to hear.... that's just stupid... as it shows both that you're emotionally weakened and also that you have half an idea what hands should be calling you and what shouldn't it's giving too much info away. In the words of Tommy Angelo - it's definately not keeping 'mum' - but with experience you do learn not to let your mouth run away with itself etc...

The CBT book is a big help on the emotional front, going to hit the books again now in preperation for first session tomorrow. Hope Sundays go well for everyone today!

That's why I have been putting a lot of time into CBT recently! Interesting that you should highlight the link between fatigue and emotional control. I have noticed my emotional control is at it's lowest at the end of a long session, so I might look at minimising the longer sessions as I am working on this.

can u post what casino you'll be going and update days/times you'll be there so I can bumhunt you?

maybe give me ur twitter or something...

Muzzard it's been a while I'll definately be up for attending a UK FTR meetup at DTD later in the year (around Septemberish) if you fancy organising another one. As for the actual venues I'll be playing for my live poker push... that's top secret

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Muzzard it's been a while I'll definately be up for attending a UK FTR meetup at DTD later in the year (around Septemberish) if you fancy organising another one. As for the actual venues I'll be playing for my live poker push... that's top secret

not trying to troll or flame, but I dont see how you can be confident in beating 200nl live? Seeing as you have failed to beat cash games/mtts or sngs at any level on a consistent basis.

I certainly have won more sessions than I have lost playing 200nl live recreationally in the past, the only time I've ever faltered is when I have let my emotion get the better of me. Confidence can come from many sources.

The adult learning curve is basically: learn, try, fail, re-learn, try, (repeat) until you succeed. In my quest to make it in poker I have repeated that process many times, as part of that learning process I have learnt that I am better suited to live play than online. My confidence comes from my commitment to changing the aspects of my play that are holding me back, my belief that correct thinking leads to correct emotions and behaviour. While correct behaviour leads to correct thinking and emotion.

By working hard on my mental approach to the game I will be changing my emotions and subsequently my behaviour. As I said though I do have some limited live experience and on the whole it has been very positive.

So I am confident. Confidence never stems from a certainty that something will turn out right. If the outcome was certain, confidence would not be needed. Confidence is founded in scaling new heights, in self belief and in correct preperation.

That's why I am confident. I would be lying to you If I said there was no doubt in my mind, re: if this will work out for me or not. But that is what will make the fruits of the labour all the sweeter.

It was Marcus Aurelius that stated "Our life is what our thoughts make of it" - if you live with limited beliefs, you will live a limited life. That is why I am confident

lol @ muzz bumhunting a live card room. Go get 'em slev, don't let anyone tell you what you can or can't do.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I certainly have won more sessions than I have lost playing 200nl live recreationally in the past, the only time I've ever faltered is when I have let my emotion get the better of me. Confidence can come from many sources.

The adult learning curve is basically: learn, try, fail, re-learn, try, (repeat) until you succeed. In my quest to make it in poker I have repeated that process many times, as part of that learning process I have learnt that I am better suited to live play than online. My confidence comes from my commitment to changing the aspects of my play that are holding me back, my belief that correct thinking leads to correct emotions and behaviour. While correct behaviour leads to correct thinking and emotion.

By working hard on my mental approach to the game I will be changing my emotions and subsequently my behaviour. As I said though I do have some limited live experience and on the whole it has been very positive.

So I am confident. Confidence never stems from a certainty that something will turn out right. If the outcome was certain, confidence would not be needed. Confidence is founded in scaling new heights, in self belief and in correct preperation.

That's why I am confident. I would be lying to you If I said there was no doubt in my mind, re: if this will work out for me or not. But that is what will make the fruits of the labour all the sweeter.

It was Marcus Aurelius that stated "Our life is what our thoughts make of it" - if you live with limited beliefs, you will live a limited life. That is why I am confident

Ya know, I've stopped posting before for these very reasons. Your problems have never been what you think they are, your problems have always been what we have all told you over and over. You refuse to believe in BRM. I asked you again about it in this thread. You have no idea what variance is or if you do you have no idea how to beat it. It's part of the game, and there is only two ways to solve the variance riddle and luck will only last a short time. You don't have problems like I posted above, you don't have BRM and never have. Until you actually spend a year or more playing where you are rolled, you will never stop starting OP threads.

Luckyslevin best of luck to you sir. Sounds like you've given this a lot of thought which is good. My only thought as I read through this is are you being realistic on the hours you are setting? If you are working full time and you plan on playing 4 hours a day after working 8 hours then putting in an additional 20 hours over the weekends. You're scheduling 80 hours a week and that doesn't include travel time from work to casino etc. When will you have time for life?

At any rate I hope all goes much better than you expect!

Stargrinder, thanks alot man, that's a big inspiration!

Jyms, thanks for reading and offering your advice. My belief is that variance is far less live than online, due to the greater edge a decent player has over the field so that's factored into my plan of action. I don't believe br will be an issue for me with this, but I will be the first to admit it is if it comes to that in this op!

HarleyGuy - thanks for your support, really do appreciate it! It takes me about half an hour to get to the Casino from work, and about an hour and half to get home. I don't plan on doing much else apart from playing poker and working over the next 6-8 months. Maybe taking one day or so off every couple of weeks. So I should be able to fit it in. I think the first couple of weeks are going to be a little experimental as I see how I feel from the schedule etc... and I can always modify things if it's too much as the weeks progress.

Thanks again everyone for your comments, makes a big difference! I don't have any poker playing friends, so it's great to have your input and share my live op with you all. GL at the tables!

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Jyms, thanks for reading and offering your advice. My belief is that variance is far less live than online, due to the greater edge a decent player has over the field so that's factored into my plan of action. I don't believe br will be an issue for me with this, but I will be the first to admit it is if it comes to that in this op!

I don't disagree with you that variance in general could be less live than online. Players are less aggro, and in general the games will be less variance. The players are worse, so in general that should be less variance.

But what you need to account for is the duration of a bad run in live and how much longer they last. A reasonable bad run can last upwards of 50k-100k hands. I have no clue how many hands are dealt per hour in live games? Someone wanna do the math in terms of how many months on LuckySlevin's schedule a bad run could theoretically last?

If I assume 30 hands per hour, and the low end of a conceivable bad streak at 50k hands.

176 hours per month -> 5280 hands per month
50k hand bad variance / 5280 -> 9.5 months.

I don't get why you just don't work on your game from like 2 or 5nl upward and take things slowly.

You have like zero patience and you drastically over estimate you own skills.

Once you've got through the 5nl-100nl stage, then you can start thinking about playing live. It will be much much softer than 100nl online and you'll have a decent grip of what a well rounded strategy is.

When you cant beat 5nl online, although live games are pretty soft, I'm not 100% sure that you can beat a £200nl live game.

Originally Posted by Muzzard

I don't get why you just don't work on your game from like 2 or 5nl upward and take things slowly.

Because that would make too much f'ing sense.

Well that was quick.

man if i listened to everyone who told me what was impossible or what i couldn't do i wouldn't be anywhere near what i am today

Today didn't really go as I had planned, I played for far too long, 10 hours. At one point I was up 2bi's and literally on the verge of leaving (i'll just finish the next two hands until the blinds get to me) - and 5 hours later... I'd managed to churn through my profit plus 3bi's. I played quite poorly at the end of the session. That and the £50 taxi home made for a very expensive first night.

I bought some clothes today, so only have like 1bi left. I'm trying to decide what to do, my options are basically: -

1. Play with 1bi see what happens.
2. Play online some other micro stake with the 1bi.
3. give up.

I hate the thought of giving up, but i've tried just about everything. Something Jyms said earlier about me needing to follow brm, and that being the problem all along. I'm thinking of maybe trying something like that online 5nl or something but god the thought of it. Then again maybe I really should call it quits once and for all, and just save up some money and once or twice a year go on holiday to a poker tournament and play there with the prospect of taking something big down.

I think the biggest problem I have with the prospect of giving up poker is that I can not figure out another avenue for developing half decent sums of money, although poker hasn't gone my way in these past 4 yrs it's the prospect of how it would benefit me if it did that has kept the dream alive.

So what do you guys think? I'm pretty sure you will all tell me not to play with 1bi, so ruling that out, do you think I should play 5nl or something, or just call it a day with poker?

Edit: Having thought on this I think my plan will be to cut ties with poker until I have saved up 30bi's for £200nl. Then try again. If I work super hard at not spending much I anticipate this will take me about a year. Do you think that sounds sensible?

std.


You still think in this day and age the easy money will come with less than a couple years of hard work and grinding about a 1/2 mil hands eh??

You don't work hard enough or think you should have to put in your dues.

so many others have moved up through the levels from the bottom (2nl) to much higher/meaningful stakes. it took them all time though. seems like you want it within a month or something. put in the time foo.

honestly not trying to troll, but did you start OP with 4 BI's?

Honestly, if you're trying to play poker as a side income, you should definitely just give up. It's HARD to make a living or partial living playing poker. If you are not willing to put in the work and time and have discipline with your bankroll, you just can't hope to ever rely on "income" from the game. You should definitely stop with that mindset.

I think discipline and bankroll management are two of the most important things when it comes to playing poker for income. You don't seem to have either of those.

If you are fine with losing a little money here and there as a fun hobby, then keep going. Do what you will with that last buy-in... it doesn't really matter at this point.

live poker is ez, what could possibly go wrong?

gl man

^^^ Yeah, no doubt.

@Lucky - It seriously looks like self discipline is your biggest downfall.

literally on the verge of leaving (i'll just finish the next two hands until the blinds get to me) - and 5 hours later... I'd managed to churn through my profit plus 3bi's

Get a job to support yourself. Once you have a couple hundred to blow then deposit into a pokersite and learn how to play the game starting at 2nl, not just the cards but also BRM, reading the table and players and definately work on your your self discipline.

Originally Posted by Shotglass

...deposit into a pokersite and learn how to play the game starting at 2nl, not just the cards but also BRM...

Shotglass and anyone else reading this, you may not know Slevin but he's been around, off and on, for a long time. He's been advised over and over on how to approach poker, as you did above. It didn't sink in then and it never will. Let's just let this thread die FFS.

dear haters. seriously stfu. all these blogs have monster potential and u end up killing them all off. this man posts things that are about 10000x more entertaining than all the posts you've made combined so srsly stfu plz

Nice of u to say plz. I'm all for Slev's entertainment value, I just hate for noobs to seriously offer him advice. Cause he ain't listenin'.

Cause he ain't listenin'

^^^ Yeah, I kinda gathered that from all of the previous comments but thought I'd throw in my $0.02 and then just watch the thread for some chuckles.

Bikes thanks alot for your comments, really appreciate them. Griffey thanks for pointing out the variance aspect of this, that's pretty daunting 9 months of possible bad run :/ - but it's really useful to have a grasp of the type of scale we're talking about. Dozer thanks for wishing me gl man. Stargrinder, not quite over just yet! Courtibee thanks for your thoughts I've realised recently how true it is that this game is all about discipline. Jyms, Muzzard and Spoonitnow - thanks for reading and posting your thoughts on the correct routeway to moving up in poker, I know my tendency to go for a riskier strategy in getting where I want to be with poker flys in the face of normal poker strategy, yet each of you that are really focussed on 'abc bankroll management and no shortcuts to moving up in stakes' still kindly give me your time. Thanks everyone I do totally appreciate all of your comments and insights, it's making my current journey all the more enjoyable to be sharing it here.

Here is where things are at 1AM Thursday morning (2/3/2011): -

For those that think I am shy of hard work believe me I have been working very hard lately, before I started playing on this live poker op yesterday I spent like 3 weeks studying a Cognitive Behaviour Therapy book - like really studying it, making detailed notes printing them out, doing all the excercises with a view to building my mental strength while playing. Of course this is the tip of the iceberg re: how much i've worked at my game, in the past 4 years I've done so much to improve. I've had coaching which I paid for from MTT pros, coaching from cash players. Most of my money has gone into my game but it's because I just feel that it will be so worth it if I get to where I imagine I can do with my game.

With the CBT experiements I've been conducting recently as part of the CBT book I've been using - I've reinacted what happens in my mind when I start to spew chips, delved into that to try to find out what 'meanings' I'm attaching to the situation pre spewing chips, to find out what my underlying thinking errors are and worked hard to embed better thinking. I seriously think if I could just play the way I 'know I should' play all the time I would be a real prospect at poker. My problem is so far I've found that almost impossible to do consistently.

Why am I playing live poker?

When I first started playing live poker I noticed I found it much easier to play disciplined poker. For someone with discipline issues it's far easier to start talking to yourself about how bad your opponent is and sliding a slider as you raise and reraise, than it is to sit surrounded by people in the cool light of day and act like a monkey. This is the main reason why I have tried to pursue live poker in this latest effort at breaking through.

I thought about 5nl yesterday, if I'm playing excellently and made 1bi a day, we're talking about £1500 in a year.. it's just so far away from where I want to be. Also I prefer the single table dynamic where you can really study your opponents instead of multi-tabling which I think is the only way to make any meaningful progress in the micros. I find it hard to get inspired and excited about playing at that level

I don't mean excited in the emotionally needy way.. i.e i want to feel excited playing because I'm playing poker for some kind of rush that's not it, I mean in the respect that i wake up thinking, what can I do today to improve my game, how can I move myself closer to my goals of making it in poker to secure the reward of freedom to travel to the world and be financially free enough to enjoy life to the full without worrying about how much money I'm spending. When I'm winning half significant sums of money those goals and aspirations seem to come alive, I just don't get that playing 5nl no matter how many bi's I win.

Thirdly I just really enjoy playing live, I enjoy the conversations you get to have, I enjoy watching games unfold, I enjoy the atmosphere in a live card room. You just don't get that playing in a corner of your house / bedroom.

They are the main three reasons I would love to make it playing live.

Summary of today

Today after I bought a jacket I needed for £30 (current one was broken) - I was left with £180. so just under 1bi for 200nl.

I only had about 4-5 hours sleep last night, and didn't get a chance to check in here to read the comments before I went to work this morning. I decided while at work when I had finished I was going to go back to the poker room and just see what I could do, if I could make some kind of progress. I thought it was worth the risk to me to risk my £180 I had left (I had already paid all my bills for the month, rent, and bought my travel etc and food) - on the prospect of getting my poker plans back on track, because the alternative was to just have £180 and when I looked at it like that it seemed like an easy decision. The possibility of the life I'm trying to build for myself from poker is infinitely more valuable to me than £180.

On the way to the cardroom I was thinking hard about my best strategy. I knew I had to be on my game (and of course need luck with 1bi) - but I had to do everything I could to give myself the best chance of success, or I would be facing at least a month until I could play again. I decided on shortstacking, because this would effectively give me 3bis instead of 1 (3x50's) - I've never shortstacked before but it seemed like a no brainer given the amount of money I had.

First shortstack...

I cashed 150 pound for chips and sat with 50 at the table, I waited for a while and then got a position I thought had to be a good spot, a fairly loose player raised to £10 from ep, and mp(ish) called, I shoved my 50 from the SB with 77. My thinking was that I have some fold equity and at worse I thought I'd be flipping on average. They both ended up calling me and one of them had QK pf, which connected with the flop and that was the first 50 down.

Second shortstack

I rebuy with my second £50. About ten hands later I pick up TT, this time there's a £5 straddle, and 4 callers, I'm in LP this time and shove. I get called by AJ and it hits the flop and now I'm down to my final 50.

Final shortstack

At this point I was still feeling calm, still trying my hardest to remain focussed and just play as well as I could. My next spot came when we had a raise to 6 (from same guy that called my 77's with QK earlier) and he was called by two other people I have position again and shoved my 50 over them with AQ(o). First guy calls me and his pf callers folded. He turns over A8 flop misses both of us and... turn is a blank... and river is.... blank and my AQ holds. Now I have just over £100 in front of me. I managed to build this up to £180 over the course of next 30-40 minutes or so.

Now I have all my bankroll on the table. I knew I had to change this situation. So I entered a small (20 runner) £15 rebuy turbo sng. They have a rule if you go to another table you have to take all your chips you can't take any away but I knew if I played the sng, I could start again when I bust. I played that for 1.5 hours, played well and ended up finishing after the addon period. I had just used 1 buy in and 1 addon so £30. During the break of this tournament I took a walk outside in the fresh air, reminding myself to just play well, and not let myself start playing outside of my best play.

Last buy in (£50)

After the sng I cashed £150 (about all I had left spare cash wise for this entire month) for chips and went to another cash table, so far I'm about even (profit from cash game at start of session paid for sng). I sat down with 50 and went into shortstack mode. Thankfully this time my initial 50 survived, and despite being on a very tight table I managed to get it up to about 120. I then moved tables as that table was pretty solid. Cut a long story short I managed to get that 120 up over the course of the next 2 hours or so to 470. So when I subtracted my £50 bi, I was up just over 2bi's. I had this feeling I should go (it was getting late) and I played another hand, I then remembered this was the same feeling I had yesterday before I started spewing all my chips away. So next hand I left. I'm very pleased with my discipline.I left because I knew it was the right thing to do even though I wanted to win more money, so this is progress. I now have £600.

I'm not too sure how to proceed now, I think it would probabally be best to shortstack and try to grind a bi or 2 up from a shortstack buy in, until I've done it enough to have maybe 10bi's? then start buying in full? Not sure what you guys think.

Thanks for reading everyone, gl at the tables

well we don't share the same thoughts on BR management, but honestly i'm actually really enjoying your OP, keep it updated. Hope you rungood, GLGLGL.

Originally Posted by fulksy

well we don't share the same thoughts on BR management, but honestly i'm actually really enjoying your OP, keep it updated. Hope you rungood, GLGLGL.

+1 to this.

Isn't there a smaller game you can play. Is there no 100nl game running? I'd imagine short stacking a bigger game could potentially be even higher variance than playing bigger stacked in a lower game.

Last thing you want is mega variance when you're on a 1 Bi roll.

BRM is to keep you in the game no matter what happens. Good, bad, whatever, you can move up, down, whatever. And done right you still never lose any of your own money. What is the plan if you busto?? Are you going to keep trying to build a roll with 1 buyin? Are you going to jump to the next money making scheme?? Sounds like you lucked out and managed to scrape by for the day. You can prepare mentally all you want, wont mean shit when you run like shit. You will...good luck tho, you'll need it. Not trying to hate but damn dood...

guys, the man tripled his "totally busto" buffer in a single night -- a cheers is in order imo

*raises glass*

In the time you have spent posting useless garbage in this thread, you could have studied and actually learned something about poker.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

In the time you have spent posting useless garbage in this thread, you could have studied and actually learned something about poker.

+1