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moronest
Old 04-11-2007, 02:37 PM     Post subject: Your NL Maxims #1 (permalink)  

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It would be of great benefit to us players still in the infancy of our learning if some of you seasoned players could provide some of the maxims (rules of thumb) you have incorporated into your play.

I realise a lot about NL is situational but it would be really interesting if some of you would divulge your maxims so we have some food for thought.

For instance, I read about a player who states he never raises any time pre-flop, he did say that he may re-raise and of course call, but he never raises. He claims that because he plays this way he is so uniform that no one can ever have any idea what he may be playing.

It seemed intriguing and unlike anything I had read before.

Surely many of you seasoned guys must have similarly obscure tactics, because surely once everyone masters the orthodox learnings there would be little difference between any players except their capacity to gamble.

thanks.
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zook
Old 04-11-2007, 03:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I almost never limp pre-flop.
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The Izebox
Old 04-11-2007, 03:53 PM #3 (permalink)  
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1. Dont limp
2. Rarely call preflop
3. Continuation bet 3/4 pot everytime on the flop unless there are multiple callers
4. dont slowplay
5. Bet your draws
6. Play high pockets as fast as possible (dont get cute and try to "trap")
7. Dont be afraid to three bet in position preflop with decent hands
8. Learn how to squeeze an agressive blind stealer (e.g. a solid player raises the button, the small blind calles, i will often reraise the pot from the big blind with any two cards. This will only work against a your standard TAGs. A poor player will call you down and a good player will rereraise you)
9. Stop calling, start raising.
10. The guy who told you he never raises preflop, dont ever take any poker advice from him ever again. Just trust me on this one.
Me? I always tell the truth.

Even when I lie.
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 04-11-2007, 04:04 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 raise a lot more flops than turns
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drtofu66
Old 04-11-2007, 04:58 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Find players who are worse than you.

And play them.



One thing that I've come to realize is that styles of play are soooooo nuanced that I really don't dismiss any kind of particular reasoning or style, so long as it works for the person who does it.

The player who NEVER raises PF? Guranteed there are those who will rip that apart as horrible. But if that guy is playing 200/400 blinds with the players at those stakes-- who am I to say? If his reading skills are so finely honed and his post-flop play is stellar, I can see how this would work in the long run. I'd think that his reading and post-flop skills have more to do with his winrate than his never raising PF, but that may very well be intrisic to how he plays and if he starts raising PF, his game falls apart.

Just something to think about.
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Jay67s
Old 04-11-2007, 05:02 PM #6 (permalink)  
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preflop mistakes are alot less costly than post flop mistakes -- beginners spend to much time learning preflop and not enough time learning post flop
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Ash256
Old 04-11-2007, 05:08 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Standard is standard for a reason.
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The Izebox
Old 04-11-2007, 05:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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if your post flop skills are good enough where you can turn a profit by never raising preflop, then you can make a killing by raising pf often. You can be a good player by playing 18/9 poker, and a good player playing 30/15. But can you be a good player playing 18/0? Or 30/0? Preflop play is fundamental. Is postflop where you can get cute.
Me? I always tell the truth.

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Miffed22001
Old 04-11-2007, 07:15 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izybx
1. Dont limp
2. Rarely call preflop
3. Continuation bet 3/4 pot everytime on the flop unless there are multiple callers
4. dont slowplay
5. Bet your draws
6. Play high pockets as fast as possible (dont get cute and try to "trap")
7. Dont be afraid to three bet in position preflop with decent hands
8. Learn how to squeeze an agressive blind stealer (e.g. a solid player raises the button, the small blind calles, i will often reraise the pot from the big blind with any two cards. This will only work against a your standard TAGs. A poor player will call you down and a good player will rereraise you)
9. Stop calling, start raising.
10. The guy who told you he never raises preflop, dont ever take any poker advice from him ever again. Just trust me on this one.
0.1. Sit with half stacks, they play bad and felting tp against them is always +ev and decisions are always automatic because you have pot odds.
0.2 Table selection is important for the reasons outlined above.
0.3 Your winrate is unimportant, come back with bbs/100 questions when your bankroll is $2.5k
0.4 Play in the best games, not at the best sites. When you are starting out, bankroll and cash are WAAAAAY more important than 'being good, thinking you are good or liking the software'
0.5 Bonus whoring is underrated. If you dont know about it post in beginners circle, online poker rooms or PM me. Most new posters think depositing $500 on stars and getting fpps is 'the way to go' They are wrong DO U C Y???!?!
0.6 Get rakeback. If you dont know what it is or if you can get it, do the above.
0.7 Dont laydown nut-like hands, thats dumb at small stakes. Opps always overplay crap.
1. DOnt always agree, playing in the right games makes this an inappropiate rule.
2. Agreed. just take your implied odds where they exist.
3. Really dont agree with this, but for small stakes players its an ok rule of thumb.
4. God Yeah, this should be like highlighted. Small stakes players love to call, make them pay for it.
5. Yep.
6. Yep. Same as 4, Ace high is teh nuts at 25nl.
7. Nope. Not at small stakes. If your hand is ahead of their range then reraise, but you dont need to be super aggressive in small stakes games to turn over a good profit without spewing.
8. Nope. Same again, you dont need to in small stakes games.
9. Yep.

In retrospect...
be aggressive.
Dont slowplay.
Play with short stacks.

Quote:
Surely many of you seasoned guys must have similarly obscure tactics, because surely once everyone masters the orthodox learnings there would be little difference between any players except their capacity to gamble.
Until you learn to play a standard range of AK/AQ etc correctly and better than your opponents, you dont even need to visit this idea.
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 04-11-2007, 11:09 PM #10 (permalink)  
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You can always improve.
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
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FlyingSaucy
Old 04-12-2007, 12:37 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
You can always improve.
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silu73
Old 04-12-2007, 03:16 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Play small pots out of position unless you have a very, very good hand 2 pair+
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Renton
Old 04-12-2007, 06:13 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 Blur your range.
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Galapogos
Old 04-12-2007, 06:27 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 When someone bets or reraises you, don't be a hero thinking he's got to be bluffing. Give the guy credit unless he gives you reason not to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-12-2007, 06:49 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 1. Think before you act

2. Don't do anything for metagame reasons until you reach $100NL

3. Don't assume opponents are paying attention b/c they probably are not.

4. Think before you act

5. Lead out sets into aggro PFR's

6. Lead out flush draws into aggro PFR's

7. Ergo, play your sets like your flush draws

8. Think before you act

9. Don't play scared

10. Trust your instincts
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moronest
Old 04-12-2007, 07:32 AM #16 (permalink)  

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moronest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Blur your range.
Could you explain this one please?
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Renton
Old 04-12-2007, 08:18 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 Whenever you make a raise or bet, make sure you are bluffing or semi-bluffing a significant percentage of the time.

For example, say a decent player opens in middle position in a 9 handed game and you call on the button. Stacks are pretty deep and the flop is K78 with two spades. Villain bets 3/4 of the pot as a continuation bet and you raise to 3x his bet.

If your range is exactly KK/88/77/87 then that sucks.

If your range is sets/87/T9/65/spades then thats a little better.

If your range is sets/draws and occasionally AK, second/third pair, or 99, then thats a whole lot better.

Basically the idea is that if he can bet the flop with AK and fold to any raise vs you then thats obviously terrible because you are never getting action. You want to be raising just enough hands that it puts him in tough spots when he has AK or TT/JJ/QQ.
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zenbitz
Old 04-12-2007, 05:19 PM #18 (permalink)  
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don't bluff people who won't fold a pair
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moronest
Old 04-12-2007, 10:21 PM #19 (permalink)  

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moronest
[quote="Miffed22001"][quote="izybx"]
5. Bet your draws


Could you please explain this one further with some detail as to how to go about it.


Thanks
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Elexshun
Old 04-13-2007, 09:29 AM #20 (permalink)  

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Don't always bet your draws, that is bad advice.

1. "figure out your opponent, figure out what he wants you to do, disappoint him"

2. get poker tracker

3. Don't underbet the river when you have a made hand
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jameseyb
Old 04-13-2007, 09:35 AM #21 (permalink)  
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I'm going to ask a question that will maybe make me sound a bit like a 'tard, but Miffed, could you explain your comment about playing with half stacks?

I always sit down with a full buyin at the level I play at (ok, it's $10NL) so that when I get a monster and go head to head, I get a chance to double up big. What's the logic behind playing with a half or smaller stack?

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bigspenda73
Old 04-13-2007, 09:49 AM #22 (permalink)  
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 We mean you want to play against half stacks
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Miffed22001
Old 04-13-2007, 11:07 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexshun
Don't always bet your draws, that is bad advice.
wrong

do u c y ?


the reason is this
Quote:
Whenever you make a raise or bet, make sure you are bluffing or semi-bluffing a significant percentage of the time.

For example, say a decent player opens in middle position in a 9 handed game and you call on the button. Stacks are pretty deep and the flop is K78 with two spades. Villain bets 3/4 of the pot as a continuation bet and you raise to 3x his bet.

If your range is exactly KK/88/77/87 then that sucks.

If your range is sets/87/T9/65/spades then thats a little better.

If your range is sets/draws and occasionally AK, second/third pair, or 99, then thats a whole lot better.

Basically the idea is that if he can bet the flop with AK and fold to any raise vs you then thats obviously terrible because you are never getting action. You want to be raising just enough hands that it puts him in tough spots when he has AK or TT/JJ/QQ.
Nice example for OP on betting draws.

100nl 6max, 100bbs stacks.

UTG loose fish limps, you limp in CO with JTs, button raises to $4. utg calls so you call.

Flop is A89 rainbow. Pot is ~12
UTG checks, you bet $8 button minraises to $16 (like they do lots at these stakes OR calls) and UTG folds.

Turn is a 7. $44
You check, button bets $20, you c/r all in with $80 behind, so its just slightly bigger than pot size raise, or else you bet 30 and opp calls.

River is any card, $104
You bet $40 all in and opp is getting better than 3:1 with tp or a set or top two etc and just cant fold.

Basically, betting your draws allows you to build a pot so that when we want to get the money in the middle we can do so easily because the pot is big enough for our bets not to be overbets. If we check call, the pot doesnt get very big OR big enoughf or us to be making pot size bets that = all in.
Also, betting makes it seem you have a made hand, if you opp has a lukewarm hand your aggression is folding him lots.
Also, when we flop sets/two pairs and want to get the money in leading doesnt seem any different from normal. If you only ever lead oop to 3bet all in on the flop then you are easy to play against.
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Elexshun
Old 04-13-2007, 06:06 PM #24 (permalink)  

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Uh nice example for not betting a draw. You bet, and someone either raises or check raises you out of the pot.
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Miffed22001
Old 04-13-2007, 06:52 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 if you dont bet you wont build pots, therefore when you hit your oppoennt wont have odds to good to fold his hands.
But of course you know that right?

If you do is c/c with draws the start betting when you hit you arent going to win big pots and people will start figuring you out real quick.
In other words, if you dont balance your range and betting range then your game will have no balance and will suffer and be exploitable.
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