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"You can't bluff a calling station"

  
 
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Fnord
Old 06-19-2006, 07:06 AM     Post subject: "You can't bluff a calling station" #1 (permalink)  
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What a bunch of bullshit.

True, if someone calls just about everything you can't bluff them by definition. However, outside of the penny tables, play money and lowest live play limits they're a rare breed.

Generally, the suckers in our games play too many hands and take them too far. They play weak hands and weak draws because their mind is filled with the possible, not the probable. They dream of hitting that magic card and run into that magic hand that's going to pay them off for the max. We make money being more realistic about both our odds of hitting and how much we figure to profit if we hit.

Hence, at the end, the loose/passive is often left at a later street, a bit of a pot and not much (if any hand.) They're bust, didn't come, didn't hit, big fat whammy. Now take it away from them. They can't call and they know it. Bet your hopeless hands into them! They'll often laydown a weak better hand. Fail that, they'll pick you off and you'll validate their calling behaviour. It's a win/win situation. Remember to SMILE when you get picked off.

Well, you can't bluff a calling station, but you sure as hell can bluff the loose/passives!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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flotu
Old 06-19-2006, 08:45 AM     Post subject: Re: "You can't bluff a calling station" #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
- You can't bluff a calling station; What a bunch of bullshit.

- Well, you can't bluff a calling station...
Huh?
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euphoricism
Old 06-19-2006, 08:59 AM #3 (permalink)  
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The point being a distinction between a true calling station, and just a loose passive player who draws too much.

Fnord's correct. I prefer, "can't bluff a fucking moron" myself, but I'm an angst-ridden 20 year old who likes to swear.
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jyms
Old 06-19-2006, 12:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Absolutely. You just can't bluff on the flop. Wait till the river and semi bluff, big bet MPWK and the likes. They may catch once but like fnord said "validate" that they play well and they will bet again next time you flop the nuts and stack-em. At the lower stakes forget C-bets and semi bluffs till the river, wait till they miss 2/3's of the time. Thanks Fnord, you've been MIA with the great advice over here in the beginner posts for a while, I have spotted the cold, bitter, sarcastic guy a few times though. Look forward to both in the future
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Miffed22001
Old 06-19-2006, 01:04 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
I prefer, "can't bluff a fucking moron" myself
QFT

I use exactly the same words :P
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Rondavu
Old 06-19-2006, 01:13 PM #6 (permalink)  
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How did we arrive at 5th street?
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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jackvance
Old 06-19-2006, 02:38 PM     Post subject: Re: "You can't bluff a calling station" #7 (permalink)  
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 I think this post shows an underlying problem on these forums, and that is a solid definition for the terms used.

Like, what exactly is:
- a calling station
- a Lagg
- a Tagg
- a fish
- a nit
- a solid Tagg
- ...

I bet everyone has different definitions for those in their head, and this causes a lot of confusion. It doesn't matter for the better players, as they will see what is really going on in their games anyway, but for the meriad of beginners this can be a problem I think.

Maybe we should make some formal definitions of these commonly used terms to describe players?
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Cocco_Bill
Old 06-19-2006, 03:19 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Some opponents should never be bluffed even with a good read.

Game # 357000506 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 1/2 - Table "Gloucester"

Players(max 6):
Cocco_Bill (EUR 281.56 in seat 1)
MrCB (EUR 90.25 in seat 2)
SWE (EUR 465.67 in seat 3)
MoParaToMe (EUR 13.19 in seat 4)
jim18 (EUR 74.00 in seat 5)
Alengard (EUR 283.40 in seat 6)

Dealer: MoParaToMe
Small Blind: jim18 (1.00)
Big Blind: Alengard (2.00)

Cocco_Bill was dealt: Kc - Qh

Cocco_Bill Raise (7.00)
MrCB Fold
SWE Call (7.00)
MoParaToMe Fold
jim18 Fold
Alengard Fold

Flop 3c - 5h - 9s

Cocco_Bill Bet (13.00)
SWE Call (13.00)

Turn 3c - 5h - 9s - Js

Cocco_Bill Bet (30.00)
SWE Call (30.00)

River 3c - 5h - 9s - Js - 6h

Cocco_Bill Bet (100.00)
SWE Call (100.00)

Cocco_Bill shows: Kc - Qh (high card king)
SWE shows: 9h - Ac (a pair of nines)

SWE wins: EUR 300.00 (with a pair of nines)
Rake: EUR 0.85

Game ended 2006-06-18 21:48:42 GMT+01:00
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jyms
Old 06-19-2006, 03:29 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Been there, done that! Not at those stakes though.
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LimpinAintEZ
Old 06-19-2006, 03:32 PM #10 (permalink)  
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the calling stations seem to fall off 1 by 1 on the turn and river, but the problem is when you take your big starting hand against 5 or 6 players, someone is going to catch something...on a 1 on 1 basis, yeah, you will absolutely kill them and can probably bluff the river often enough...but when you start against 5 or 6 (or 7-8 at a live 3/6 game) one of them is going to hunt you down....I think they call it schooling -
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Fnord
Old 06-19-2006, 04:51 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
How did we arrive at 5th street?
Many hands go bust on the flop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 06-19-2006, 07:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Some opponents should never be bluffed even with a good read.
The problem with that hand history is that you're not trying to bluff him off a bust/weak hand and instead are comming out guns blazing to push him off a medium-strongish hand. I don't get what $100 on the river does that $50-$60 doesn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Cocco_Bill
Old 06-19-2006, 08:41 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Fnord, thats how I bet my really strong hands, the river bet was potsized. I sure as hell would fold to that river bet coming from a player like myself.
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Laeelin
Old 06-19-2006, 09:20 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Fnord, thats how I bet my really strong hands, the river bet was potsized. I sure as hell would fold to that river bet coming from a player like myself.
Fnord was saying that this isnt an example of what he was talking about...

He isnt talking about a bet on the river to push then off that.

He still thinks of his hand as TPTK

Imagine this same situation where he had bottom pair on the flop... or a open ended that missed.

Q. Is poker Gambling?
A. Do you use correct bankroll management?
 
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Cocco_Bill
Old 06-20-2006, 05:08 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laeelin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Fnord, thats how I bet my really strong hands, the river bet was potsized. I sure as hell would fold to that river bet coming from a player like myself.
Fnord was saying that this isnt an example of what he was talking about...

He isnt talking about a bet on the river to push then off that.

He still thinks of his hand as TPTK

Imagine this same situation where he had bottom pair on the flop... or a open ended that missed.
Are we talking about small pots or medium to large pots? You would want to be insane to bluff in a medium/large pot if you don't think that your opponent is capable of folding anything but missed draws or bottom pair. Anyhow, how often are you going to be in that spot when you don't actually beat a missed draw in a showdown?
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Fnord
Old 06-20-2006, 07:46 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Yeah, most of this manifests itself in NLHE via flop bets. Some non-flop action from the last few days...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($194.30)
CO ($202.10)
Button ($169.23)
SB ($45.36)
BB ($177.61)
UTG ($142.98)
UTG+1 ($70.19)
Fnord ($431)
MP1 ($231)
MP2 ($182.55)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+2 with 8, 8. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $2, Fnord raises to $10, 3 folds, CO calls $10, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($25) 6, 9, J (2 players)
Fnord bets $16, CO calls $16.

Turn: ($57) A (2 players)
Fnord bets $30, CO folds.

Final Pot: $87

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($26.25)
Fnord ($99.50)
SB ($43.05)
BB ($164.35)
UTG ($84.30)
UTG+1 ($44.40)
MP1 ($123.70)
MP2 ($65.45)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with K, J.
4 folds, CO calls $1, Fnord raises to $5, SB calls $4.50, 1 fold, CO folds.

Flop: ($12) Q, T, T (2 players)
SB bets $10, Fnord calls $10.

Turn: ($32) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $30, SB folds.

Final Pot: $62

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($34.80)
UTG+1 ($37.50)
MP1 ($35.40)
MP2 ($39)
Fnord ($123.20)
Button ($112.35)
SB ($37.25)
BB ($38)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q, A.
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, Fnord raises to $5, 3 folds, MP1 calls $4, MP2 calls $4.

Flop: ($16.50) 3, 5, 6 (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord checks.

Turn: ($16.50) K (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets $10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $10.

River: ($36.50) 6 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Fnord bets $25, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $61.50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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jyms
Old 06-20-2006, 11:59 AM #17 (permalink)  
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jyms has a spectacular aura aboutjyms has a spectacular aura aboutjyms has a spectacular aura about
 Is this amount of calling typical at these stakes?? In three hands no one ever raised but you. Or is it just how these hands fit into your explanation to proove your point. 4 calls in three hands pre flop before your raise seems like alot of passive behaviour for $100NL. Or can this be what you talk about in other threads fnord about table selection.
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jackvance
Old 06-20-2006, 12:37 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 Now show hand histories where they called you down with any pair. One of those pretty much negates two where it "worked".. although this is debatable, who says they didn't fold the losing hand? I mean, you called middle pair a "medium-strong hand"..

The initial point looked good to me, but now it's getting weird. What are you trying to say here? "Keep bluffing til the river, it might work"? Oh I'd love to have anyone at my table who plays like that..
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Miffed22001
Old 06-20-2006, 02:52 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 SWE is a fish at those stakes anyway :P

he sucked at 100nl too.
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LimpinAintEZ
Old 06-20-2006, 09:19 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Fnord, in all of your examples except the last one, you were heads up on the flop - Go play some $10NL where calling stations are prevalent, and see if you can get heads up with a 10x BB Raise...Not going to happen - Calling stations don't typically play $100NL - You will sure as hell find them in lower games though - And in lower games, no, you can't bluff them...You can bluff a few of them away, but someone is going to catch something and play sheriff - All these examples, IMO, only show you bluffing a semi-aware opponent off his hand - Get in a game with real calling stations and then post - You will be getting 5 callers preflop, not 1 -
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jyms
Old 06-20-2006, 09:31 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

line in the sand???
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